American Pilots view of TWA Pilot merger.
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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Would it not be simple and fair to merge seniority lists based on hourly pay at the time of the buyout? So if the TWA 717 Capt made $120/hr, he would go just behind the American 757 FO making $121. We make it so complicated and create animosity for generations.
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Another interesting angle on things:
Why is it, if the TWA guys had such great career expectations before the buyout, that we were holding on file applications from literally hundreds of them? They were prepared to start at the bottom if they'd been called by us then, so what's changed now?
411A: you have attacked UA, Cathay, Delta, ComAir, Lufthansa and now (again) AA. That's just in the past few weeks. What is bugging you? Let it out here, so we can all help you, because I think you need it.......
To the TWA folks that may be reading this: Welcome aboard - I personally am glad that Christmas's may be a little rosier for you in future...
Why is it, if the TWA guys had such great career expectations before the buyout, that we were holding on file applications from literally hundreds of them? They were prepared to start at the bottom if they'd been called by us then, so what's changed now?
411A: you have attacked UA, Cathay, Delta, ComAir, Lufthansa and now (again) AA. That's just in the past few weeks. What is bugging you? Let it out here, so we can all help you, because I think you need it.......
To the TWA folks that may be reading this: Welcome aboard - I personally am glad that Christmas's may be a little rosier for you in future...
Thread Starter
BrokePilot: I'm not contradicting your comments on TWA's lack of a B-scale, but when my Dad retired at TWA about seven years ago, I had never asked him how much the total pay cut had been, not wanting to remind or embarass him. Someone else told me that the TWA pilots ended up with about a %40 pay cut which lasted for years. Former owner Carl Icahn also got a piece of everyone's retirement pension! Maybe this helps explain why some of our folks live in Mexico, partly in order to stretch the stolen retirement money. The salaries at that time as a TWA 30-year MD-80 Captain were comparable to a 12-year DC-9 First Officer at the larger major airlines. I've mentioned this several times on Pprune while apparently crying wolf (no pun intended re US Airways) like a broken record and won't deny it, especially when people out of whatever motivation choose to portray Icahn or Lorenzo as airline builders.
Even people outside the industry often realize that Icahn and his lawyers bankrupted TWA. The unionized employees helped to save it, voluntering (out of the will to survive) to take huge salary cuts-and not just for one or two years.
Carl Icahn's company, until recently, ALSO owned about %20 of ALL the TWA ticket stock, which means that his firm pocketed all of those ticket profits, which should/could have been revenue for TWA. Next to this type of ruthless carnivore, great white sharks and crocodiles are pussy cats-these predators eat only when they are hungry.
Was this still news to anyone in the world of US (un)civil aviation?
Even people outside the industry often realize that Icahn and his lawyers bankrupted TWA. The unionized employees helped to save it, voluntering (out of the will to survive) to take huge salary cuts-and not just for one or two years.
Carl Icahn's company, until recently, ALSO owned about %20 of ALL the TWA ticket stock, which means that his firm pocketed all of those ticket profits, which should/could have been revenue for TWA. Next to this type of ruthless carnivore, great white sharks and crocodiles are pussy cats-these predators eat only when they are hungry.
Was this still news to anyone in the world of US (un)civil aviation?
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Seniority list integration is always contentious at best and openly acrimonious at worst with the potential for a seemingly endless series of legal actions becoming part of the circus.
This is hardly a merger of equals though. TWA over the years has withdrawn from all international routes, sold off the heavy metal and given the pilots a remuneration package that draws little envy from the rest of the industry. Continual downsizing has consistently failed to yield any profit, it doesn't take a fortune teller to see where this was eventually going to end up.
The TWA pilot group were facing near certain bankruptcy and loss of employment. As a consequence they're playing this particular game of seniority shuffle with no aces. Hopes of integration by date of hire, one for one or anything approaching it appear to be born from wishful thinking rather than a dispassionate look at the facts.
Interesting solution proposed by Ben There. Integration of seniority based on $s does have a certain logic to it.
This is hardly a merger of equals though. TWA over the years has withdrawn from all international routes, sold off the heavy metal and given the pilots a remuneration package that draws little envy from the rest of the industry. Continual downsizing has consistently failed to yield any profit, it doesn't take a fortune teller to see where this was eventually going to end up.
The TWA pilot group were facing near certain bankruptcy and loss of employment. As a consequence they're playing this particular game of seniority shuffle with no aces. Hopes of integration by date of hire, one for one or anything approaching it appear to be born from wishful thinking rather than a dispassionate look at the facts.
Interesting solution proposed by Ben There. Integration of seniority based on $s does have a certain logic to it.
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If American arrogantly staples TWA then may they reap what they sow, specifically an ongoing inter-company world war III. This is not like swallowing some backwater company like Reno. This is aquiring a peer and should be addressed as such. On the other hand, this may play well into my company's hands. 
Thread Starter
Brad737: Isn't it interesting how the TWA pilots, according to many, should not receive even an adjusted date of hire-but only because their company is financially very shaky. If the company had been getting by ok, they might have hoped for a better deal.
Some people seem to think that the TWA pilots are going to American without numerous planes and valuable gate assets/slots. Some airline pilots seem to have much more in common with the Lorenzo and Icahn view of airline labor than the pilots realize. What a shame. Didn't Lorenzo staple Peoples' Express below Continental? What a paradox.
Some people seem to think that the TWA pilots are going to American without numerous planes and valuable gate assets/slots. Some airline pilots seem to have much more in common with the Lorenzo and Icahn view of airline labor than the pilots realize. What a shame. Didn't Lorenzo staple Peoples' Express below Continental? What a paradox.
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What goes up, must come down. Companies such as TWA and PANAM were top of the tree in the past. Now other companies such as United and AA are at the top. However, and this is my point, noone can be too smug, as the same fate may very well befall those who are currently on top. Only two things are certain in life, death, and a hostie!!
Just a though, but what happens to the ground based mortals in this aquisition, as they are unencumbered with the seniority system.
Harry
p.s. I have been in a non-airline company that went from first in it's field to fifteenth, all in the space of five years. It was interesting to watch the demise. Enjoy the ride.
Just a though, but what happens to the ground based mortals in this aquisition, as they are unencumbered with the seniority system.
Harry
p.s. I have been in a non-airline company that went from first in it's field to fifteenth, all in the space of five years. It was interesting to watch the demise. Enjoy the ride.
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Brad 737,
Agree with most of your other posts but I'd like to remind you what your DAL MEC said when Comair (which DAL already owned) asked to be placed on your seniority list.
Funny how, as this doesn't apply to your situatuion, you can offer a "detached" opinion regarding AA/TWA.
This isn't meant as a slam, just pointing out human behaviour!
As far as merging via W2's the junior FO's at TWA would be "windfally" advantaged over the junior FO's at AA because the B scale doesn't expire until Aug 31st,2001. TWA's junior FO's make a couple of bucks an hour more over the first three or so years then AA makes significantly more. The AA FO's already paid full price for entry into AA in the form of less now, more later. The senior TWA Captains would actually be hosed the most. That's not fair either. I'd rather them be able to retire in the seat they're in, at full AA payrates and benefits. These CA's are the guys and gals that SHOULD get to win-win and fulfill their TWA career goals/expectations.
APA's solution benefits ALL TWA folks across the board (as it should).
Lastly, if you enter through the front door, it's always going to be hard giving something up to someone else who slips in through a side door, especially when they impinge on your "view". TWA was offered a fence around "their" property so they may finish their career, as originally projected, and their reply was "...No way do we want to be stuck in a STL pilot ghetto!".
In other words, "We don't want a TWA pilots career, we demand an AA pilots career!".
Brad, read ALL about TWA /Ozark and then reconsider your statement.
Cheers,dd.
By the way, AA has over 100 former TWA pilots that saw the writing on the wall and resigned TWA to start over again at AA.
Agree with most of your other posts but I'd like to remind you what your DAL MEC said when Comair (which DAL already owned) asked to be placed on your seniority list.
Funny how, as this doesn't apply to your situatuion, you can offer a "detached" opinion regarding AA/TWA.
This isn't meant as a slam, just pointing out human behaviour!
As far as merging via W2's the junior FO's at TWA would be "windfally" advantaged over the junior FO's at AA because the B scale doesn't expire until Aug 31st,2001. TWA's junior FO's make a couple of bucks an hour more over the first three or so years then AA makes significantly more. The AA FO's already paid full price for entry into AA in the form of less now, more later. The senior TWA Captains would actually be hosed the most. That's not fair either. I'd rather them be able to retire in the seat they're in, at full AA payrates and benefits. These CA's are the guys and gals that SHOULD get to win-win and fulfill their TWA career goals/expectations.
APA's solution benefits ALL TWA folks across the board (as it should).
Lastly, if you enter through the front door, it's always going to be hard giving something up to someone else who slips in through a side door, especially when they impinge on your "view". TWA was offered a fence around "their" property so they may finish their career, as originally projected, and their reply was "...No way do we want to be stuck in a STL pilot ghetto!".
In other words, "We don't want a TWA pilots career, we demand an AA pilots career!".
Brad, read ALL about TWA /Ozark and then reconsider your statement.
Cheers,dd.
By the way, AA has over 100 former TWA pilots that saw the writing on the wall and resigned TWA to start over again at AA.
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Dallas, your well thought out and informed reply is appreciated but misses my original point about TWA's "peer" status. Are you advocating seniority integration of all wholly owned subsidiaries, ie comair, asa, horizon, american eagle, etc..? A Major buys it's commuter(non-pc)connector to guarantee dedicated feed, managerial control, schedule control, fleet control, economies of scale savings on purchasing, and a host of other reasons. This relationship benefits both airlines. I assume that you would also insist on seniority integration of all the subsidary's employees into the parent company's roster. F/A's, mechs, agents, bag handlers, the whole shootin' match. I must assume that you don't favor of the very existence of wholly owned subsidiaries. I am a bit confused about where this goes.
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Ignition Override: if 'Passages', the company newspaper of Northwest Airlines, is your definitive source of information as to whether Northwest would have survived without the "merger" with Republic then heaven help all PPruners who may rely on information you post. The truth so often seems to rely on one's perspective as opposed to one's information.
Thread Starter
Michael 744: Your points are certainly valid. I was hired by Republic as a DC-9 FO in '85, just months before the wonderful merger was announced. Both merger committees made mistakes at the beginning. The Republic Merger Chairman E.J. got things off to a bad start with an abrasive, demanding approach, no doubt about that, and I don't give a hoot whether any former Hughes Airwest guys like that comment or not. But the three and a half year (record?) seniority arbitration certainly allowed one pilot group to move up at the expense of others despite guys with more years unable to go to captain on the most junior jet, but it never bugged me. It was irritating for me that sob former CEO (who later lost his golden parachute due to alleged "rewards" from Airbus for ordering the first A-320s in either the US or North America: he was "allegedly" the buddy of a certain Bavarian coalition leader in the Bundesrepublik government [CSU, FDP or CDU?] who was on the Airbus board) to keep one group on the pay cuts which were a concession to Mr. Wolf.
Anyway, NWA would have had serious problems without another carrier to feed its lean hub system, as you might be well aware. Too bad it had no experience with large hub traffic, and gradually re-invented the wheel over the years, having also discovered the benefits of computerized flight planning-no more filling out all flight releases/plans etc by hand and with the "whiz wheels"!
Got an exotic trip tomorrow with layovers in LAN and MSN and I don't miss the long 757 legs at all. I was sorry to hear about shutting down the old SEA base and the DC-10 in Honolulu, and for the families involved.
Don't forget to flush the lavs over Lake Minnetonka. Hasta la Vista
[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
Anyway, NWA would have had serious problems without another carrier to feed its lean hub system, as you might be well aware. Too bad it had no experience with large hub traffic, and gradually re-invented the wheel over the years, having also discovered the benefits of computerized flight planning-no more filling out all flight releases/plans etc by hand and with the "whiz wheels"!
Got an exotic trip tomorrow with layovers in LAN and MSN and I don't miss the long 757 legs at all. I was sorry to hear about shutting down the old SEA base and the DC-10 in Honolulu, and for the families involved.
Don't forget to flush the lavs over Lake Minnetonka. Hasta la Vista
[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]
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Date of hire, you have got to be on drugs. This is not a MERGER of two peer group airlines. This is an ACQUISITION by a major carrier of a bankrupt, minutes-from-the-street-no-hope-for-survival-out-of-date airline.
Again, TWA should just be thankful for a job and forget about AA pilot's job expectations. If this integration drags on, TWA will bring little assets, if any, to the table. TWA pilots can keep their date of hire while standing in the local unemployment line. That's where their true job expectations are.
[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Blue & White ]
Again, TWA should just be thankful for a job and forget about AA pilot's job expectations. If this integration drags on, TWA will bring little assets, if any, to the table. TWA pilots can keep their date of hire while standing in the local unemployment line. That's where their true job expectations are.
[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Blue & White ]
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Don't think the TWA pilots are loosing anything by accepting APA's proposal:
The TWA guys that fly captain will continue as AA captains on same type at much better pay.
Thee TWA F/Os will get a huge pay increase and get 1000 AA pilots behind them.
Seems like the deal of the century to me.
Been in the same boat as the TWA guys:
Got laid off from Tower Air last year. Then lost the job altogether when company went out of business a few months later.
Had to compete on the open market and did get a job, but started on the bottom of the pay scale and seniority list. Gonne take me a few years to recover financially. The TWA guys however gets to keep their pay year from TWA. Hell of a deal.
Any TWA guys on PPRuNe? Anything to complain about?
Don't think so.
The TWA guys that fly captain will continue as AA captains on same type at much better pay.
Thee TWA F/Os will get a huge pay increase and get 1000 AA pilots behind them.
Seems like the deal of the century to me.
Been in the same boat as the TWA guys:
Got laid off from Tower Air last year. Then lost the job altogether when company went out of business a few months later.
Had to compete on the open market and did get a job, but started on the bottom of the pay scale and seniority list. Gonne take me a few years to recover financially. The TWA guys however gets to keep their pay year from TWA. Hell of a deal.
Any TWA guys on PPRuNe? Anything to complain about?
Don't think so.
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Blueball,
If AA wants what TWA has, how come it is TWA that keeps refusing the permanent fence? They would gain quite a bit as there would have to be hiring to bring their side up to AA manning requirements and they can keep all their routes and planes, and AA would keep all of theirs!.
Yet it is TWA that objects to the fence. It is they whow are greedy and what what AA has.
Remember DOH in not mentioned anywhere in ALPA merger policy. It says one side should not gain a windfall at the expense of the other. Well TWA is doing all the gain here.
TWA is the incredible shrinking airline, and except for some pre 71 hires, that is there career expectation.
Cheers
Wino
If AA wants what TWA has, how come it is TWA that keeps refusing the permanent fence? They would gain quite a bit as there would have to be hiring to bring their side up to AA manning requirements and they can keep all their routes and planes, and AA would keep all of theirs!.
Yet it is TWA that objects to the fence. It is they whow are greedy and what what AA has.
Remember DOH in not mentioned anywhere in ALPA merger policy. It says one side should not gain a windfall at the expense of the other. Well TWA is doing all the gain here.
TWA is the incredible shrinking airline, and except for some pre 71 hires, that is there career expectation.
Cheers
Wino
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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If you have suffered through working at a failing airline, you know that one is no less a pilot for working there than those employees of an airline at the top. The situation of TWA/AA calls for American pilots to put themselves in the TWA pilots shoes and think about what they would, in that case, see as equitable. "Stapling" is the worst outcome possible for the TWA pilots, the company, and I believe, ultimately for the AA pilots. There is plenty of opportunity to go around without creating the long term acrimony an unfair integration will create. All American pilots will make enough money to live handsomely regardless of the settled outcome. Why not do the right thing as opposed to the most lucrative?
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Been There,
APA has NOT suggested stapling every TWA pilot.
If you read TWA's "rightful place" masterplan you'll soon realize who's trying to hose who.
I don't blame anyone for asking. Just make it realistic. For TWA to come up with a plan and say essentially, "DoH or we'll sue" is beyond ridiculous.
Put yourself in an AA pilot's shoes. Give me truthful answers to these questions; what do I have to gain, what does TWA have to gain? Now ask yourself which group (having showed up with a lifeboat that those rescued now want to commandeer) assumes the most risk. What does TWA have to lose (nothing), what does AA have to lose?
Now tell me what's fair. I'm all ears!
dd
APA has NOT suggested stapling every TWA pilot.
If you read TWA's "rightful place" masterplan you'll soon realize who's trying to hose who.
I don't blame anyone for asking. Just make it realistic. For TWA to come up with a plan and say essentially, "DoH or we'll sue" is beyond ridiculous.
Put yourself in an AA pilot's shoes. Give me truthful answers to these questions; what do I have to gain, what does TWA have to gain? Now ask yourself which group (having showed up with a lifeboat that those rescued now want to commandeer) assumes the most risk. What does TWA have to lose (nothing), what does AA have to lose?
Now tell me what's fair. I'm all ears!
dd