Air Crash Nigeria
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What really makes me mad about all this is that, yet again, Nigerian officialdom will rant and rave, the President will order an investigation, then within weeks it'll all be forgotten in the light of increases in violence as first Christmas, then the Presidential elections approach. A year down the road, the results of the accident investigation will still not have been released and the skies will still be full of unsafe aircraft flying into airfields with no radar, unsafe runways and navaids that are often unserviceable. Maybe a few heads will have rolled, but nothing will have changed at all. 
. Just how many crashes does it take and how many lives will be lost before anything meaningful is done to improve aviation safety in Africa in general and Nigeria in particular?
. Just how many crashes does it take and how many lives will be lost before anything meaningful is done to improve aviation safety in Africa in general and Nigeria in particular?
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oops
QUOTE=Lancelot37;2935165]News flash from BBC showing airliner crash in Nigerian capitol. Details to follow.[/QUOTE]
just clicked onto this link.... and above it was an advert for job vacancies for pilots in nigeria..... not the best position for such an advert eh PPrune advertiser bods!!
just clicked onto this link.... and above it was an advert for job vacancies for pilots in nigeria..... not the best position for such an advert eh PPrune advertiser bods!!
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fojimmiejames and others
planes don't crash becasue they are old...they crash because of poor mx...buy a 737-200 cheaply from a first world aviation country and then put NO MONEY into MX and you have a disaster waiting to happen.
Cheap Plane=HIGH MX cost. If you are going to be cheap on MX, well, figure it out for yourself.
by the way a wheel well fire checklist for the 737-200 is:
landing gear lever down (270 knots max)
if gear UP required for performance,
leave gear down for 20 minutes AFTER warning light extinguishes
then
UP and OFF
Proceed to nearest suitable airport for landing
=====
ONE very sad thing is the way we train. We train for a problem and it is a solo problem or problem effected by the same system
We need to train for something like: while flying in major storm, wheel well fire light illuminates. Handling the storm and the emergency
or...ONE ENGINE approach to landing during WINDSHEAR.
multiple situations, as what may have happened in nigeria, are not covered.
jon
DOES ANYONE HAVE THE METAR
planes don't crash becasue they are old...they crash because of poor mx...buy a 737-200 cheaply from a first world aviation country and then put NO MONEY into MX and you have a disaster waiting to happen.
Cheap Plane=HIGH MX cost. If you are going to be cheap on MX, well, figure it out for yourself.
by the way a wheel well fire checklist for the 737-200 is:
landing gear lever down (270 knots max)
if gear UP required for performance,
leave gear down for 20 minutes AFTER warning light extinguishes
then
UP and OFF
Proceed to nearest suitable airport for landing
=====
ONE very sad thing is the way we train. We train for a problem and it is a solo problem or problem effected by the same system
We need to train for something like: while flying in major storm, wheel well fire light illuminates. Handling the storm and the emergency
or...ONE ENGINE approach to landing during WINDSHEAR.
multiple situations, as what may have happened in nigeria, are not covered.
jon
DOES ANYONE HAVE THE METAR
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The AP story with the time 12:10 EST (1710GMT) reports the plane to be a Boeing 737-2B7.
Worn tyres aren't just in Africa. I've seen pictures from Russia within the past 3 years with plenty of fabric instead of tread showing - on a domestic jet flight.
Worn tyres aren't just in Africa. I've seen pictures from Russia within the past 3 years with plenty of fabric instead of tread showing - on a domestic jet flight.
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According to AeroTransport the crashed 737-204 was 23 years old.
Former operators where Thomsonfly, Air New Zealand and Midway AL. The plane ist listed as "stored?" in Lagos.
Former operators where Thomsonfly, Air New Zealand and Midway AL. The plane ist listed as "stored?" in Lagos.
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To be fair, after the Air France incident at Port Harcourt they finally banned the grazing of cattle next to the runway and promised to put up a fence. I think the airport is now closed for extensive renovation and it is about time. Every time you made a night landing in the rain you could see the 'temporary' wiring for the runway lights (there for 25 years, at least) glowing with short circuits in many places.
We had reported the cattle the previous evening on takeoff and landed back there around midnight. Lucky for us, since we were operating a much smaller aircraft, that the cattle must have still been grazing before going off to sleep on the nice warm runway before their rude awakening. That A-330 had a broken titanium beam in its main gear; our aircraft would probably have had a cockpit full of beef in a layer about two feet thick on the aft bulkhead with us forming the bottom six inches.
The last time they had a bad run of accidents the response was simply to ban the BAC 1-11 from passenger service, ignoring the underlying fact that standards were simply not being kept up. The Kano BAC 1-11 accident that was the 'last straw' killed a guy I had flown many hours with whom I had a lot of time for. It would have been much fairer to really dig into the problems and fix them before more people had to die, but that's just not the way Nigeria works.
Pretty much all the new guys look around in shock, wondering why no one has fixed obvious problems. Often they think, 'Hey, black people are stupid!' A smart person would see and fix the problem, is their mistaken assumption.
It can take a long time to understand the mad way everything really does function there; it's a perverted reality. Usually it comes down to someone screwing a few bucks out of finally, sort of, fixing something so that it can break again in six months, when more money shall be spent. Fix it 'propah' and the money tap is shut!
The pilots often end up pawns in this game. That's not right, perhaps, but it is arguably so. You don't want to operate shabby equipment into marginal airports? Fine, step aside, because there are guys stood in line for work there!
How many of you reading this have ever been hungry? Not 'hungry' as in, 'Gimme a Big Mac and a large fries,' but 'hungry' as in 'not enough money to live on.' You have to factor that in to a lot that goes on in Nigeria, I think. Life is lived close to the bone.
We had reported the cattle the previous evening on takeoff and landed back there around midnight. Lucky for us, since we were operating a much smaller aircraft, that the cattle must have still been grazing before going off to sleep on the nice warm runway before their rude awakening. That A-330 had a broken titanium beam in its main gear; our aircraft would probably have had a cockpit full of beef in a layer about two feet thick on the aft bulkhead with us forming the bottom six inches.
The last time they had a bad run of accidents the response was simply to ban the BAC 1-11 from passenger service, ignoring the underlying fact that standards were simply not being kept up. The Kano BAC 1-11 accident that was the 'last straw' killed a guy I had flown many hours with whom I had a lot of time for. It would have been much fairer to really dig into the problems and fix them before more people had to die, but that's just not the way Nigeria works.
Pretty much all the new guys look around in shock, wondering why no one has fixed obvious problems. Often they think, 'Hey, black people are stupid!' A smart person would see and fix the problem, is their mistaken assumption.
It can take a long time to understand the mad way everything really does function there; it's a perverted reality. Usually it comes down to someone screwing a few bucks out of finally, sort of, fixing something so that it can break again in six months, when more money shall be spent. Fix it 'propah' and the money tap is shut!
The pilots often end up pawns in this game. That's not right, perhaps, but it is arguably so. You don't want to operate shabby equipment into marginal airports? Fine, step aside, because there are guys stood in line for work there!
How many of you reading this have ever been hungry? Not 'hungry' as in, 'Gimme a Big Mac and a large fries,' but 'hungry' as in 'not enough money to live on.' You have to factor that in to a lot that goes on in Nigeria, I think. Life is lived close to the bone.
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Well said chuks! You are a man who has obviously been 'bitten by the mosquito' and Afrika is now in your blood. You can never leave, even if you never return, because there will always be some small part of Afrika there within you.
As you so rightly say though, it's all too often the pilots who are the unwitting (and then - sadly - 'late') pawns in the Nigerian way of doing aviation. There are some excellent Nigerian pilots as is shown by the fact that despite everyting they have to suffer, they manage not to have even more accidents flying marginally maintained aircraft, in marginal conditions into marginal, unmaintained airports.
RIP all those who were on the ill-fated aircraft.
As you so rightly say though, it's all too often the pilots who are the unwitting (and then - sadly - 'late') pawns in the Nigerian way of doing aviation. There are some excellent Nigerian pilots as is shown by the fact that despite everyting they have to suffer, they manage not to have even more accidents flying marginally maintained aircraft, in marginal conditions into marginal, unmaintained airports.
RIP all those who were on the ill-fated aircraft.
FO JimmieJames, for a so-called pilot your comments about the B732 series would indicate that you know very little about aviation and what constitutes a safe aircraft.
Latest nigeria crash
And it's not just fixed wing operations that are below standard:
Rotary operations within the Niger Delta & offshore are still taking place without a) SAR cover. b) Radar cover. c) ATIS weather info. d) Re-broadcast facilities for relay of flight following e) a comprehensive track structure to reduce the possibility of conflictions & that's just for starters.
with fraternal greetings, retired to SA, ambi
PS: PanAfrican owned Bell 412 5N-BDZ still lies at the bottom of the Gulf of Benin having arrived there in early(I think)2004, whilst engaged on a night casevac. Cause of the accident still unknown I believe, this is one crew who won't be going home to their loved ones anytime soon. Major oil companies, many of whom are to be found operating in Nigeria are still on course to return over $100 billion to their shareholders over the next 5 years it is reported.
Rotary operations within the Niger Delta & offshore are still taking place without a) SAR cover. b) Radar cover. c) ATIS weather info. d) Re-broadcast facilities for relay of flight following e) a comprehensive track structure to reduce the possibility of conflictions & that's just for starters.
with fraternal greetings, retired to SA, ambi
PS: PanAfrican owned Bell 412 5N-BDZ still lies at the bottom of the Gulf of Benin having arrived there in early(I think)2004, whilst engaged on a night casevac. Cause of the accident still unknown I believe, this is one crew who won't be going home to their loved ones anytime soon. Major oil companies, many of whom are to be found operating in Nigeria are still on course to return over $100 billion to their shareholders over the next 5 years it is reported.
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Avman, concerning FOJIMMIEJAMES
i've re-read FOJIMMIEJAMES' comments and they seem right on the mark...I can think of 4 737-200 crashes in aviation third world countries in the last year or so.
perhaps I have missed something AVMAN? Would you be specific?
While 737-200's or many other planes can be flown when getting old, they can't be flown safely if not well maintained.
FOJIMMIEJAMES also seems able to tell the difference between a 737 empenage and a 727 empenage.
i've re-read FOJIMMIEJAMES' comments and they seem right on the mark...I can think of 4 737-200 crashes in aviation third world countries in the last year or so.
perhaps I have missed something AVMAN? Would you be specific?
While 737-200's or many other planes can be flown when getting old, they can't be flown safely if not well maintained.
FOJIMMIEJAMES also seems able to tell the difference between a 737 empenage and a 727 empenage.
What really makes me mad about all this is that, yet again, Nigerian officialdom will rant and rave, the President will order an investigation, then within weeks it'll all be forgotten in the light of increases in violence as first Christmas, then the Presidential elections approach. A year down the road, the results of the accident investigation will still not have been released and the skies will still be full of unsafe aircraft flying into airfields with no radar, unsafe runways and navaids that are often unserviceable. Maybe a few heads will have rolled, but nothing will have changed at all. . Just how many crashes does it take and how many lives will be lost before anything meaningful is done to improve aviation safety in Africa in general and Nigeria in particular?
. Just how many crashes does it take and how many lives will be lost before anything meaningful is done to improve aviation safety in Africa in general and Nigeria in particular?Join Date: Mar 2005
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Patuta, thanks for quoting us but you did not read well. Aircraft involved was 5N-BFK msn 22891 ex USAir/Metrojet. RIP.
www.aerotransport.org
www.aerotransport.org
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Re the settling of high-time 732's to Nigeria & the like -
I'm not sure of the price of jet fuel there, but I bet it's pretty cheap. Thus the incentive to acquire & operate newer jets (less fuel burn, but high upfront cost) is pretty low. Couple this with penny-pinching maintenance, and the outcome is predictable.
But a well-maintained, upgraded 732 would be a fine bird to fly - just a wee thirsty though. It was built to see many cycles.
I'm not sure of the price of jet fuel there, but I bet it's pretty cheap. Thus the incentive to acquire & operate newer jets (less fuel burn, but high upfront cost) is pretty low. Couple this with penny-pinching maintenance, and the outcome is predictable.
But a well-maintained, upgraded 732 would be a fine bird to fly - just a wee thirsty though. It was built to see many cycles.
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Here are a couple of pics of an ADC a/c I took earlier this year parked up at LOS :-
This isn't the a/c involved in the accident today, this one had been parked up for some time. IIRC it was being used for spares for the other a/c in the fleet !!!.
This isn't the a/c involved in the accident today, this one had been parked up for some time. IIRC it was being used for spares for the other a/c in the fleet !!!.
Is that grass on the roof? Or is it part of the paint scheme....
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avman
fojimmie james is right on in his statements. first off, the pictures show a 737 not a 727
second, he indicates that 737-200's aren't doing that well safety wise...which is very true in the aviation third world.
barit1 is right, a well maintained 737-200 would do just fine...key words WELL MAINTAINED...also add well trained pilots, good wx radar and the like.
take a good look at one picture showing the horizontal stabilizer trim setting (exterior marks).
airtransport: thanks for posting ac previous history...I flew it about 7 years ago...well maintained then, more advanced version than some with very nice auto throttle, the big gyros and better autopilot than some earlier ones we had. Better wx radar too.(than earlier versions)
fojimmie james is right on in his statements. first off, the pictures show a 737 not a 727
second, he indicates that 737-200's aren't doing that well safety wise...which is very true in the aviation third world.
barit1 is right, a well maintained 737-200 would do just fine...key words WELL MAINTAINED...also add well trained pilots, good wx radar and the like.
take a good look at one picture showing the horizontal stabilizer trim setting (exterior marks).
airtransport: thanks for posting ac previous history...I flew it about 7 years ago...well maintained then, more advanced version than some with very nice auto throttle, the big gyros and better autopilot than some earlier ones we had. Better wx radar too.(than earlier versions)
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Don't quite see where lack of money comes into it...Nigeria is not a poor country.. Lack of talent in its rulers and corruption yes... but that's not unique to Nigeria.
Before you all right off Nigerian Aviation as being totally unsafe, there are two operators that have the confidence of expats and locals alike. Both have had a heavy input into their operations by European owners and operate to European standards. Potentially there is a 3rd airline starting this week which has also had European input, though the two highest placed guys have just left a couple of days before the first flight which is unusual to say the least!
For sure the Govt. provided infrastructure is in a very poor state both in its modernity and its upkeep, and in a country with the wealth that Nigeria has this is bordering on criminal neglect. I also have pictures of ADC aircraft taken early this year (but I cannot upload them), and they show clean and outwardly well maintained aircraft, not aircraft that are out of service and suffering the effects of the high humidity, but then they wouldn't fit the wanted impression would they.
COndolences to all those affected by this disaster
For sure the Govt. provided infrastructure is in a very poor state both in its modernity and its upkeep, and in a country with the wealth that Nigeria has this is bordering on criminal neglect. I also have pictures of ADC aircraft taken early this year (but I cannot upload them), and they show clean and outwardly well maintained aircraft, not aircraft that are out of service and suffering the effects of the high humidity, but then they wouldn't fit the wanted impression would they.
COndolences to all those affected by this disaster
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Gentlemen,
I worked for ADC briefly, and I knew the guys who were involved in this accident. I think we are jumping the gun here, lets get more info before we begin to speulate about the serviceability of the aircraft. The aircraft 5N-BED which is shown above has been retired from the fleet, it does not reflect the state of ADC's fleet.
I worked for ADC briefly, and I knew the guys who were involved in this accident. I think we are jumping the gun here, lets get more info before we begin to speulate about the serviceability of the aircraft. The aircraft 5N-BED which is shown above has been retired from the fleet, it does not reflect the state of ADC's fleet.