Duane Woerth out at ALPA
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Duane Woerth out at ALPA
Just saw where Duane Woerth was voted out by 900+ votes at the BOD going on in Las Vegas. New ALPA President is Captain John Prater from CAL.
Looks like the good life finally caught up with Woerth!!!
Looks like the good life finally caught up with Woerth!!!
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The ALPA newsflash reads like this...
ALPA Official Communication:
LAS VEGAS, NV -- The Board of Directors of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) today elected Captain John Prater, a B-767 Continental Airlines pilot, to serve as the 8th president in the union's history.
This decision sends a strong signal to the airline industry that ALPA pilots are prepared to move into a new period of strong, concerted action to rebuild their profession.
"The airline pilots of the United States and Canada today sent a clear message that their union desires to return to its roots of aggressive bargaining, strict contract enforcement, tenacious organizing, and pilot action to restore our contracts and our profession," Prater said in the wake of his election.
"After five years of concessionary bargaining, lost pensions, and battered work rules, our pilots are primed to take offensive action," Prater continued. "This may mean a return to the hard-nosed tactics of earlier years and a grassroots mobilization of each and every one of our members."
While the concessionary era in the airline industry is coming to a close, several airlines remain prisoners of the "1113 process" (whereby management can have labor contracts annulled by the bankruptcy court), and others are stalled in negotiations with their managements. This stagnation takes place while load factors are high, fuel prices are lower, and profits are rising.
"The airline industry survived because of the concessions pilots and other workers made," Prater said. "Now it is time for us to see a tangible return on these bitter investments."
Prater is a 28-year veteran of ALPA, having served extensively at all levels. From strike committee chairman to master chairman and a vice chairman of the international alliance, Wings Alliance (now part of the Skyteam Alliance), Prater brings a wealth of experience. His background includes union fights against notorious airline management figures Frank Lorenzo, Carl Icahn, and Dick Ferris.
A graduate of St. Louis University with a bachelor's degree in meteorology, Capt. Prater is based in Newark, NJ. He is a resident of Edwardsville, IL with his wife Michele and daughter Alexandra. He is the son of John and Esther Prater of Collinsville, IL.
The election was a contest between Prater and current ALPA President, Capt. Duane E. Woerth. Of the 47,968 votes cast, 24,444 went to Prater and 23,524 to Woerth. The new president will take office in January 2007.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Also elected by the Board of Directors were:
United Captain Paul Rice (DCA - 747) was elected First Vice President. Captain Rice has served the Association for the past four years as ALPA's Vice-President - Administration.
US Airways Captain Chris Beebe was reelected Vice-President of Finance.
American Eagle Captain Bill Couette was elected Vice-President - Administration.
LAS VEGAS, NV -- The Board of Directors of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) today elected Captain John Prater, a B-767 Continental Airlines pilot, to serve as the 8th president in the union's history.
This decision sends a strong signal to the airline industry that ALPA pilots are prepared to move into a new period of strong, concerted action to rebuild their profession.
"The airline pilots of the United States and Canada today sent a clear message that their union desires to return to its roots of aggressive bargaining, strict contract enforcement, tenacious organizing, and pilot action to restore our contracts and our profession," Prater said in the wake of his election.
"After five years of concessionary bargaining, lost pensions, and battered work rules, our pilots are primed to take offensive action," Prater continued. "This may mean a return to the hard-nosed tactics of earlier years and a grassroots mobilization of each and every one of our members."
While the concessionary era in the airline industry is coming to a close, several airlines remain prisoners of the "1113 process" (whereby management can have labor contracts annulled by the bankruptcy court), and others are stalled in negotiations with their managements. This stagnation takes place while load factors are high, fuel prices are lower, and profits are rising.
"The airline industry survived because of the concessions pilots and other workers made," Prater said. "Now it is time for us to see a tangible return on these bitter investments."
Prater is a 28-year veteran of ALPA, having served extensively at all levels. From strike committee chairman to master chairman and a vice chairman of the international alliance, Wings Alliance (now part of the Skyteam Alliance), Prater brings a wealth of experience. His background includes union fights against notorious airline management figures Frank Lorenzo, Carl Icahn, and Dick Ferris.
A graduate of St. Louis University with a bachelor's degree in meteorology, Capt. Prater is based in Newark, NJ. He is a resident of Edwardsville, IL with his wife Michele and daughter Alexandra. He is the son of John and Esther Prater of Collinsville, IL.
The election was a contest between Prater and current ALPA President, Capt. Duane E. Woerth. Of the 47,968 votes cast, 24,444 went to Prater and 23,524 to Woerth. The new president will take office in January 2007.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Also elected by the Board of Directors were:
United Captain Paul Rice (DCA - 747) was elected First Vice President. Captain Rice has served the Association for the past four years as ALPA's Vice-President - Administration.
US Airways Captain Chris Beebe was reelected Vice-President of Finance.
American Eagle Captain Bill Couette was elected Vice-President - Administration.
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Phil,
Losing by 900 votes is not substantial when you have 47,000 members. You obviously don't like him, but he has presided over an industry in meltdown and I think he has done a good job. Consider all that has happenend during his Presidency, with most of the US majors in Chapter 11, seeking wage cuts and concessions. It's not a job I would have liked to do, but maybe the new guy will have an even tougher time restoring things back to the way they were. Good luck to him.
Losing by 900 votes is not substantial when you have 47,000 members. You obviously don't like him, but he has presided over an industry in meltdown and I think he has done a good job. Consider all that has happenend during his Presidency, with most of the US majors in Chapter 11, seeking wage cuts and concessions. It's not a job I would have liked to do, but maybe the new guy will have an even tougher time restoring things back to the way they were. Good luck to him.
There are various pros and cons regarding any ALPA leader.
'Phil Squares' mentions "the good life" and Duane Woerth in the same sentence.
But when one staff member of our MEC saw Mr. Woerth arrive at a crewbase airport and instead of going downstairs to chat with the 'besieged' line pilots (who made major sacrifices in their careers just to help their airline survive bankruptcy) in the crew lounge and listen to their concerns and frustrations with the Chapter 11 process, he goes into the exclusive airport "club" along with other 'cultivated' First Class passengers. This created a less-then-favorable impression when seen from a leadership perspective. This was the impression made on a major airline member of a MEC, by the way. In one foreign language, a similar word, 'besiegt', in the past tense means defeated or conquered.
Other than at FEDEX, UPS (and DHL: these are mostly all-night express cargo pilot lifestyles) and Southwest, has the prospect of a good airline pilot career also been defeated, with little prospect of recovery? Is it worth the huge cash investment for a young person of 21 years old or so, at least as a civilian pilot, knowing that there is a lifestyle for years at or near poverty level, with salaries which require them to sometimes procure government food stamps to put food on the family table? Even after they 'survive' intense classroom and simulator training (one failed, despite success with the
[exorbitant cost} Gulfstream B-1900 program: he had little IFR instrument approach time..) and fly as First Officer on a regional jet, well aware that an accidental injury or medical problem can terminate their career? And so...just what does this general question have to do with Mr. Woerth? ALPA's leaders in the past were somehow either unable or unwilling to create a minimum pay scale for a given seat in a given aircraft type, i.e. CRJ, B-737, B-757. A Captain's hourly pay on the DC-9 or B-737(2) at the highest rate, for a pilot hired in 1985, at one or more US major airlines is about equal to the hourly pay at low cost airline AirTran, previously known as Valuejet.
Bringing in a $300,000 per year salary or so as ALPA leader is also noteworthy, considering how many career ALPA pilots (i.e. age 55) now have no retirement, are a few years from mandatory retirement age and are on a 35-40% paycut, with little increase-for several years, if not longer, even if they are allowed to work after age 60 under FAR part 121. Most planes with Flight Engineer seats will be soon gone.
This should not diminish whichever positive accomplishments by Mr. Woerth, nor those of the many hard-working, dedicated ALPA volunteers around the US who have spent much of their time off, family time, in a never-ending struggle to limit further disintegration of the US pilot career, but these other observations on how to set a good example, or how not to, just might have some validity.
Despite market forces and realities for upper executive pay and perks, even Duane Woerth's salary, is it now all the more mind-boggling when we contemplate (or try not to) how many millions in pay and stock bonuses are now given to CEOs
especially who have no background in flight operations nor any long-term commitment to their airline, which might easily be operating under Chapter 11.
?
'Phil Squares' mentions "the good life" and Duane Woerth in the same sentence.
But when one staff member of our MEC saw Mr. Woerth arrive at a crewbase airport and instead of going downstairs to chat with the 'besieged' line pilots (who made major sacrifices in their careers just to help their airline survive bankruptcy) in the crew lounge and listen to their concerns and frustrations with the Chapter 11 process, he goes into the exclusive airport "club" along with other 'cultivated' First Class passengers. This created a less-then-favorable impression when seen from a leadership perspective. This was the impression made on a major airline member of a MEC, by the way. In one foreign language, a similar word, 'besiegt', in the past tense means defeated or conquered.
Other than at FEDEX, UPS (and DHL: these are mostly all-night express cargo pilot lifestyles) and Southwest, has the prospect of a good airline pilot career also been defeated, with little prospect of recovery? Is it worth the huge cash investment for a young person of 21 years old or so, at least as a civilian pilot, knowing that there is a lifestyle for years at or near poverty level, with salaries which require them to sometimes procure government food stamps to put food on the family table? Even after they 'survive' intense classroom and simulator training (one failed, despite success with the
[exorbitant cost} Gulfstream B-1900 program: he had little IFR instrument approach time..) and fly as First Officer on a regional jet, well aware that an accidental injury or medical problem can terminate their career? And so...just what does this general question have to do with Mr. Woerth? ALPA's leaders in the past were somehow either unable or unwilling to create a minimum pay scale for a given seat in a given aircraft type, i.e. CRJ, B-737, B-757. A Captain's hourly pay on the DC-9 or B-737(2) at the highest rate, for a pilot hired in 1985, at one or more US major airlines is about equal to the hourly pay at low cost airline AirTran, previously known as Valuejet.
Bringing in a $300,000 per year salary or so as ALPA leader is also noteworthy, considering how many career ALPA pilots (i.e. age 55) now have no retirement, are a few years from mandatory retirement age and are on a 35-40% paycut, with little increase-for several years, if not longer, even if they are allowed to work after age 60 under FAR part 121. Most planes with Flight Engineer seats will be soon gone.
This should not diminish whichever positive accomplishments by Mr. Woerth, nor those of the many hard-working, dedicated ALPA volunteers around the US who have spent much of their time off, family time, in a never-ending struggle to limit further disintegration of the US pilot career, but these other observations on how to set a good example, or how not to, just might have some validity.
Despite market forces and realities for upper executive pay and perks, even Duane Woerth's salary, is it now all the more mind-boggling when we contemplate (or try not to) how many millions in pay and stock bonuses are now given to CEOs
especially who have no background in flight operations nor any long-term commitment to their airline, which might easily be operating under Chapter 11.?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 21st Oct 2006 at 06:15.
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It seems that crew attitudes are hardening generally, both cockpit and cabin, as a result of the factors described by ign O/R.
Here is a link to studies on crew attitudes since 9/11
http://www.lera.uiuc.edu/IndustryCou...0June%2005.pdf
Here is a link to studies on crew attitudes since 9/11
http://www.lera.uiuc.edu/IndustryCou...0June%2005.pdf
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DW
he lost my respect and my pension.
I recall in the early days after 9/11 that he said something like: airline pilots can't be "sky king" and "marshall dillon" at the same time.
weeks later he waffled and supported the arming of pilots.
and his salary, quoted as some 300k, doesn't even begin to cover certain perks
including a housing allowance that would make many middle class american's salary look small by comparison.
While a "SOS" (suspension of service) might have been illegal, it was one weapon that alpa could have used to secure our pensions and the airlines...even the threat alone might have gotten bush to sing a tune closer to alpa's than ata's.
he lost my respect and my pension.
I recall in the early days after 9/11 that he said something like: airline pilots can't be "sky king" and "marshall dillon" at the same time.
weeks later he waffled and supported the arming of pilots.
and his salary, quoted as some 300k, doesn't even begin to cover certain perks
including a housing allowance that would make many middle class american's salary look small by comparison.
While a "SOS" (suspension of service) might have been illegal, it was one weapon that alpa could have used to secure our pensions and the airlines...even the threat alone might have gotten bush to sing a tune closer to alpa's than ata's.
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Other than at FEDEX, UPS and Southwest, has the prospect of a good airline pilot career also been defeated, with little prospect of recovery?
And on the subject of ALPA, they didn't see the sidewinders coming in at six o'clock, but they should have. Guilty of being asleep on watch.
Last edited by XL5; 21st Oct 2006 at 05:34. Reason: Got the letters in the wrong order.
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Phil,
Losing by 900 votes is not substantial when you have 47,000 members. You obviously don't like him, but he has presided over an industry in meltdown and I think he has done a good job. Consider all that has happenend during his Presidency, with most of the US majors in Chapter 11, seeking wage cuts and concessions. It's not a job I would have liked to do, but maybe the new guy will have an even tougher time restoring things back to the way they were. Good luck to him.
Losing by 900 votes is not substantial when you have 47,000 members. You obviously don't like him, but he has presided over an industry in meltdown and I think he has done a good job. Consider all that has happenend during his Presidency, with most of the US majors in Chapter 11, seeking wage cuts and concessions. It's not a job I would have liked to do, but maybe the new guy will have an even tougher time restoring things back to the way they were. Good luck to him.
ALPA will be well served with John in their leadership position.
I have flown with him many times in the past and his reputation in, and out of the cockpit is outstanding.
It was time for a change.
I have flown with him many times in the past and his reputation in, and out of the cockpit is outstanding.
It was time for a change.
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Phil,
Losing by 900 votes is not substantial when you have 47,000 members. You obviously don't like him, but he has presided over an industry in meltdown and I think he has done a good job. Consider all that has happenend during his Presidency, with most of the US majors in Chapter 11, seeking wage cuts and concessions. It's not a job I would have liked to do, but maybe the new guy will have an even tougher time restoring things back to the way they were. Good luck to him.
Losing by 900 votes is not substantial when you have 47,000 members. You obviously don't like him, but he has presided over an industry in meltdown and I think he has done a good job. Consider all that has happenend during his Presidency, with most of the US majors in Chapter 11, seeking wage cuts and concessions. It's not a job I would have liked to do, but maybe the new guy will have an even tougher time restoring things back to the way they were. Good luck to him.
Col. Klink,
Just so you know, there was not an election per se. The way it works in the BOD meeting is every MEC votes their votes and that's where the 900 vote margin came from. My guess is if the members actually voted it wouldn't have been that close!
Being a former ALPA member, it has amazed me how as other members were taking massive pay cuts, the ALPA president was pretty well insulated from that. More importantly, take a look at the expense account he is provided with; other things like a residence, car/driver. That's what I mean by the "good life". Perhaps he needs to drive around in a "beater" for a winter in DC, just to remember where his roots were.
Psychophysiological entity
Some of the Praters hale from a castle in the West country, I've clambered round it with one of my family who was looking for her roots. If this new boss-man is anything like my DIL or the folk that occupied the castle, watch out!!!!!!!!
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It is the fare paying passenger who decides what we should be paid. You can only push up wages when profits are high and pax are filling seats. Sounds like ALPA is ready for a fight they can't win. Southwest and JetBlue will no doubt pick up the pieces.
As for Chapter 11 protecting the companies at the expense of the pilots; without Chapter 11 there would have been bankruptcy. The latter would have left the industry in a healthier state, but would have brought even louder squeals from the doomed dinosaurs.
Passengers buy on quality and price, just like pilots do when buying their cars or computers. If you prefer the command economy, where wages and prices are decided by committees, the old Soviet system had the answer. It also brought poverty. The economic stupidity of so-called intelligent pilots continues to amaze me.
As for Chapter 11 protecting the companies at the expense of the pilots; without Chapter 11 there would have been bankruptcy. The latter would have left the industry in a healthier state, but would have brought even louder squeals from the doomed dinosaurs.
Passengers buy on quality and price, just like pilots do when buying their cars or computers. If you prefer the command economy, where wages and prices are decided by committees, the old Soviet system had the answer. It also brought poverty. The economic stupidity of so-called intelligent pilots continues to amaze me.
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It is the fare paying passenger who decides what we should be paid.
Passengers buy on quality and price, just like pilots do when buying their cars or computers. If you prefer the command economy, where wages and prices are decided by committees, the old Soviet system had the answer. It also brought poverty. The economic stupidity of so-called intelligent pilots continues to amaze me.
Passengers buy on quality and price, just like pilots do when buying their cars or computers. If you prefer the command economy, where wages and prices are decided by committees, the old Soviet system had the answer. It also brought poverty. The economic stupidity of so-called intelligent pilots continues to amaze me.
Compensation is negotiated. It has nothing to do with simple concepts like 'fairness' or other popular but meaningless sentiments. Does anyone think a CEO is paid by how much the passengers pay?
Second, it is price, price, price followed in a distant position by quality.
And what is a 'so-called intelligent' pilot?
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Price is driven by supply and demand.This rule applies to pilots too.
When those shiny new airplanes are parked because there is nobody to fly them (rather than no butts to put on the seats), then prices (pay) will go up.
Recently there have been more and more jobs for experienced pilots advertised. But the number of pilots being trained has slowed down. (cost and payback concerns).
It is only a matter of time before the glut is mopped up, and the shortage will put upward pressure on T&Cs.
It happened before, and it will happen again.
I didnt see the fare paying passengers stop flying because fuel prices sent fares up, they just paid the extra and went on flying.
So may be the so-called economic stupidity of the so-called intelligent pilots is just impatience for the so-called shortage to start hurting.
When those shiny new airplanes are parked because there is nobody to fly them (rather than no butts to put on the seats), then prices (pay) will go up.
Recently there have been more and more jobs for experienced pilots advertised. But the number of pilots being trained has slowed down. (cost and payback concerns).
It is only a matter of time before the glut is mopped up, and the shortage will put upward pressure on T&Cs.
It happened before, and it will happen again.
I didnt see the fare paying passengers stop flying because fuel prices sent fares up, they just paid the extra and went on flying.
So may be the so-called economic stupidity of the so-called intelligent pilots is just impatience for the so-called shortage to start hurting.
Did anybody suggest that there is a free, or open market in the US for airlines? Or what decides what airfares will be? One or both of these was my impression from some post above.
"Our" US government, which allegedly deregulated the airline industry way back in 1978, sucks cash out of the airlines like a movie vampire ready for winter hibernation. Nosferatu would be envious.
Unless I'm wrong, it has been written in some journals that out of the typical average airline ticket, about 25% is paid to the federal government for taxes and fees, as if fuel prices have NOT increased a large amount.
A large number of US citizens often profess their distaste for what appears to be any strong government (innconvenient, but federal employees' ranks have swelled to a large degree under the GOP alone) and "socialism".
Well, it is already here and is ripping off the airlines and the staff.
The passenger does not pay these huge taxes and fees to Washington, DC, the airlines pay these obscenely bloated, extortionate sums.
And of the three government gentleman who manage the seriously under-funded PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation), two of them allegedly also run the ATSB (Air Transport. Stabilization Board), which decides whether to loan money to airlines, and how much. A conflict of interest or not? The negligent practices of many airlines has inspired other industries to also get rid of their pension obligations. A true 'class act' to showcase how to treat working people and the retired.
If these comments are generally true, then how else does one define and exemplify government corruption and exploitation?
If they are not basically true, then so be it-but show us the facts.
But if these are generally accurate, then to a certain degree, our US governments' actions have worsened the financial nightmare of the airlines. Theseare admittedly oversimplified comments for a complex subject, but in the meantime the GOP has, to a large extent, been in control of Congress
.
PS: Looking at pilot salaries, Southwest is NOT a low-cost airline
. Their B-737 monthly pay is probably the highest in the US, by far, and probably among the highest in the world when looking at a typical flying month. Sometimes I wish that I had earned a B-737 type rating years ago and applied to SWA. But the idea of giving up a few years of seniority here was, in the good old days, considered a bad decision. Not so anymore, if one is fairly young.
"Our" US government, which allegedly deregulated the airline industry way back in 1978, sucks cash out of the airlines like a movie vampire ready for winter hibernation. Nosferatu would be envious.
Unless I'm wrong, it has been written in some journals that out of the typical average airline ticket, about 25% is paid to the federal government for taxes and fees, as if fuel prices have NOT increased a large amount.
A large number of US citizens often profess their distaste for what appears to be any strong government (innconvenient, but federal employees' ranks have swelled to a large degree under the GOP alone) and "socialism".
Well, it
is already here and is ripping off the airlines and the staff. The passenger does not pay these huge taxes and fees to Washington, DC, the airlines pay these obscenely bloated, extortionate sums.
And of the three government gentleman who manage the seriously under-funded PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation), two of them allegedly also run the ATSB (Air Transport. Stabilization Board), which decides whether to loan money to airlines, and how much. A conflict of interest or not? The negligent practices of many airlines has inspired other industries to also get rid of their pension obligations. A true 'class act'
to showcase how to treat working people and the retired.If these comments are generally true, then how else does one define and exemplify government corruption and exploitation?
If they are not basically true, then so be it-but show us the facts.
But if these are generally accurate, then to a certain degree, our US governments' actions have worsened the financial nightmare of the airlines. Theseare admittedly oversimplified comments for a complex subject, but in the meantime the GOP has, to a large extent, been in control of Congress
.PS: Looking at pilot salaries, Southwest is NOT a low-cost airline
. Their B-737 monthly pay is probably the highest in the US, by far, and probably among the highest in the world when looking at a typical flying month. Sometimes I wish that I had earned a B-737 type rating years ago and applied to SWA. But the idea of giving up a few years of seniority here was, in the good old days, considered a bad decision. Not so anymore, if one is fairly young.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 27th Oct 2006 at 04:25.
PS: Looking at pilot salaries, Southwest is NOT a low-cost airline
Hopefully the revenue trends will continue at places like CAL and the like. I believe this career will recover after a little more pain. Who would have believed the industry would take so long to stabilize after deregulation?!
-A Southwest pilot and former ALPA member
PS I also think it was time for a change but I still believe Worthe was better than Babbit.
Last edited by 737er; 26th Oct 2006 at 05:58.
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So can we agree that Southwest is not a low-pay airline, but is a low-cost airline?
Which goes to prove the point that employee pay is not necessarily the cause of the problems with airlines. Productivity, driven as much by route structure as anything else, is where the sheep and goats separate.
Southwest has optimised utilisation of gates, facilities, ground equipment, flight equipment, and manpower. Not many others have done that. Hence lower productivity.
Which goes to prove the point that employee pay is not necessarily the cause of the problems with airlines. Productivity, driven as much by route structure as anything else, is where the sheep and goats separate.
Southwest has optimised utilisation of gates, facilities, ground equipment, flight equipment, and manpower. Not many others have done that. Hence lower productivity.
"Which goes to prove the point that employee pay is not necessarily the cause of the problems with airlines. Productivity, driven as much by route structure as anything else, is where the sheep and goats separate."
Too true. You might want to also look at Southwest executive compensation, very low by CEO standards, and their headquaters office space, quaintly described as "non descript" in a recent NYT article.
They have always being about delivering value to the customer and the shareholder. ALPA and all pilots need to understand that they cannot defy gravity. You need to work for a company that makes money,Southwest, JetBlue, UPS, FEDEX, ryanair, etc end of story. etc. If they are not making money no amount off union hot air can change that. Bargain all you want, hold your breath till you turn blue- no profits, no increases. It is not hard to figure and has nothing to do with who leads ALPA.
20driver
Too true. You might want to also look at Southwest executive compensation, very low by CEO standards, and their headquaters office space, quaintly described as "non descript" in a recent NYT article.
They have always being about delivering value to the customer and the shareholder. ALPA and all pilots need to understand that they cannot defy gravity. You need to work for a company that makes money,Southwest, JetBlue, UPS, FEDEX, ryanair, etc end of story. etc. If they are not making money no amount off union hot air can change that. Bargain all you want, hold your breath till you turn blue- no profits, no increases. It is not hard to figure and has nothing to do with who leads ALPA.
20driver