BA 2166 from Tampa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky9
2 With the high performance of modern twins and the limitations of TCAS only showing 2500 ft above and below it is common that the returns only give 40 secs notice.
and by topbunk:
TCAS can be 'pointed' up or down, in which case the display will show you traffic up to about 7000ft above/below depending on whether it's pointing up or down.
Originally Posted by sky9
2 With the high performance of modern twins and the limitations of TCAS only showing 2500 ft above and below it is common that the returns only give 40 secs notice.
and by topbunk:
TCAS can be 'pointed' up or down, in which case the display will show you traffic up to about 7000ft above/below depending on whether it's pointing up or down.
Neither of which has any bearing on when you receive an RA. Don't confuse display volume with tracking volume.
You get an RA when all the conditions (predicted vertical & horizontal separations, and time to closest point of approach) are met. This has nothing to do with how your traffic display is set up.
pb
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CPB
I do know how the system works! I was merely pointing out that the system is not limited to DISPLAYING +/-2500ft, but that making a pilot controlled selection you can improve your SA when climbing or descending. Even if you choose not to display traffic information, the TCAS system is still active.
I do know how the system works! I was merely pointing out that the system is not limited to DISPLAYING +/-2500ft, but that making a pilot controlled selection you can improve your SA when climbing or descending. Even if you choose not to display traffic information, the TCAS system is still active.
FX Guru
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Strepsils - I rarely post on this forum, because I am not a professional pilot. My profile tells you that.
When I do post it is normally to c&p wire reports (which we get earlier in dealing rooms) about, sadly, air accidents. Do a search and you'll see I often crop up with stuff early on in an incident (eg the Stord crash) and then fade out to let the professionals, argue, bicker, slag and, very occasionally intelligently discuss and debate the incident.
By all means stop me posting, but I think you'd lose a sometimes useful conduit of information.
When I do post it is normally to c&p wire reports (which we get earlier in dealing rooms) about, sadly, air accidents. Do a search and you'll see I often crop up with stuff early on in an incident (eg the Stord crash) and then fade out to let the professionals, argue, bicker, slag and, very occasionally intelligently discuss and debate the incident.
By all means stop me posting, but I think you'd lose a sometimes useful conduit of information.
Controversial, moi?
Are we all too eager to allow the cabin staff out of their seats with the seatbelt sign on? The aircraft was at 16000 going up at 2000fpm so 8 mins after TO with an 8 hr flight ahead. I always used to work on the basis that if it was bad enough for the passengers it was bad enough for the cabin staff.
I remember travelling as a passenger with QANTAS from the UK to BKK some years back and was interested to learn that when the seat belt sign was switched on the meal service stopped and ALL crew had to strap in. No discretion. I do not know if that is still the case.
sky9 has a very salient point, if it is too unsafe for passengers to walk around then why are CC with trollies allowed to do so?
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angels - I think you're right, which is why I said I was just thinking out loud. The problem is trying to sift through the rubbish disguised as genuine information to find the real genuine information.
If more of the "interested observers" on the site followed your own code of conduct it would be a much better place!
If more of the "interested observers" on the site followed your own code of conduct it would be a much better place!
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As another interested non-pilot, I think that perhaps a voluntary code of conduct might be a good way to start. Perhaps members could all be asked to categorise themselves as pilot, atc, engineer, enthusiast, etc, and this could be displayed under their name whenever they post.
Of course some sad individuals would lie about it, but I expect that they'd pretty quickly give themselves away to people who really do know what they're talking about.
As others have said, to those of us who sit at the back, Pprune is a very enlightening way to understand what's going on. I am very grateful to those professionals who take the time to answer silly questions from people like myself, and I think it would be a great shame to deny us access to it because of the actions of a few idiots. Perhaps a seperate thread is required to discuss this topic?
Steve.
Of course some sad individuals would lie about it, but I expect that they'd pretty quickly give themselves away to people who really do know what they're talking about.
As others have said, to those of us who sit at the back, Pprune is a very enlightening way to understand what's going on. I am very grateful to those professionals who take the time to answer silly questions from people like myself, and I think it would be a great shame to deny us access to it because of the actions of a few idiots. Perhaps a seperate thread is required to discuss this topic?
Steve.
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Top Bunk
is quite right. the volume of area displayed can be increased to about 7000' above or below ( I think the exact number is 6700') by the use of the A/B (above/below) switch.
while this doesn't change the R/A, a prudent pilot can certainly gain a better sense of a POTENTIAL upcoming R/A and act a little bit earlier, including reducing rate of climb/descent or asking ATC about the impending situation. Also a swift activation of all external lights might be in order.
To not expect traffic conflicts on climbout of a busy Florida airport is being behind the power curve. So many little planes, one must be vigilant, especially for the odd NON TRANSPONDER plane.
is quite right. the volume of area displayed can be increased to about 7000' above or below ( I think the exact number is 6700') by the use of the A/B (above/below) switch.
while this doesn't change the R/A, a prudent pilot can certainly gain a better sense of a POTENTIAL upcoming R/A and act a little bit earlier, including reducing rate of climb/descent or asking ATC about the impending situation. Also a swift activation of all external lights might be in order.
To not expect traffic conflicts on climbout of a busy Florida airport is being behind the power curve. So many little planes, one must be vigilant, especially for the odd NON TRANSPONDER plane.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
The Hysteria Begins...
This is being reported on a popular blog in the US (The Drudge Report) as the following:
TERROR OUT OF TAMPA: British Airways jet seconds from disaster in 'near collision'...
It then links to the Daily Mail site below, using such objective phrases as "The stricken BA plane left Tampa..." and "The emergency started over the Atlantic Ocean" despite having said earlier "just 15 minutes after take off from Tampa in Florida".
I dont blame the journo's, I blame their parents for not knowing more about contraception.
BA jet seconds from disaster in US 'near collision'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...e_id=1770&ct=5
Last updated at 22:00pm on 20th October 2006
packed British Airways jet was just seconds from disaster after plummeting out of the sky in a dramatic near miss over America, it has emerged.
BA flight 2166 carrying 175 terrified passengers, three pilots and 11 crew plunged 600 feet in a bid to avoid collision with another plane above it.
Two passengers and four crew members were injured in the dramatic incident which took place at 16,500 feet just 15 minutes after take off from Tampa in Florida.
US air traffic controllers had just seconds earlier told the BA flight to start ascending from 16,000ft to 20,000ft when the emergency happened.
The emergency collision avoidance system on the Boeing 777 plane kicked in over the Atlantic Ocean, causing lights to flash and an alarm to sound in the cockpit, with the pilot hearing the words "descend,descend,descend."
The descent was so sudden that some of the crew members left the floor, went into "freefall" and hit their heads on the ceiling of the plane as it plummeted.
Others slammed into the bulkheads. All four crew were stood down from their duties while being treated for bruises on board in the Club cabin for the remainder of the flight.
They were met by paramedics when the plane landed at London Gatwick.
Injuries included back pains, bruises and swelling to arms and hands,
BA confirmed last night that the near miss is now being formally investigated by the US Federal Aviation Administration.
It said its pilots had acted properly and professionally but had been under the authority of US air traffic controllers when the emergency occurred.
Staff were praised for their handling of the emergency.
One eyewitness said: "I was on the Tampa flight. About 15 minutes into the climb the aircraft suddenly dropped out of the sky."
"Luckily all of other passengers were all still strapped in. But unfortunately the cabin crew were starting to prepare for service and were badly injured."
"At least four were so bad that they were unable to continue working."
The eye-witness said: "The captain came on and apologised saying that he had to take emergency evasion action to avoid a collision with another aircraft above him."
"There was a paramedic on board who apparently said 'It will be OK to continue but it was touch and go as to whether they return to Tampa."
BA confirmed that one of the forward Club class cabins was used as an impromptu sick-bay in which the injured stewardesses were treated and allowed to recuperate.
The eyewitness said: "I have been a frequent flyer for over 40 years and it is the scariest thing I have ever experienced."
"I'm off now to change my underwear."
Another said: "It felt like turbulence in the Club cabin but of course the poor guys and girls at the back got their freefall experience."
The stricken BA plane left Tampa, Florida at 6.30pm on Tuesday October 10 and landed at Gatwick at 8am on Wednesday October 11th. But details have only today emerged.
A BA spokesman said: "Our pilots were under the control of US air traffic controllers when the incident happened."
"They had been asked to ascend from 16,000ft to 20,000ft, but then told to hold at 16,500ft. At the same time the emergency collision avoidance system - TCAS- told our crew to descend. They followed this command."
BA said it did not know the identity of the other plane involved in the near miss - or how close - only that it had been above their plane.
Collision avoidance systems are programmed only to operate when a collision is likely and the safe space between aircraft - whether horizontally or vertically, has been compromised.
BA said: "We have filed a report with the US Federal Aviation Authority which is investigating."
TERROR OUT OF TAMPA: British Airways jet seconds from disaster in 'near collision'...
It then links to the Daily Mail site below, using such objective phrases as "The stricken BA plane left Tampa..." and "The emergency started over the Atlantic Ocean" despite having said earlier "just 15 minutes after take off from Tampa in Florida".
I dont blame the journo's, I blame their parents for not knowing more about contraception.
BA jet seconds from disaster in US 'near collision'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...e_id=1770&ct=5
Last updated at 22:00pm on 20th October 2006
packed British Airways jet was just seconds from disaster after plummeting out of the sky in a dramatic near miss over America, it has emerged.
BA flight 2166 carrying 175 terrified passengers, three pilots and 11 crew plunged 600 feet in a bid to avoid collision with another plane above it.
Two passengers and four crew members were injured in the dramatic incident which took place at 16,500 feet just 15 minutes after take off from Tampa in Florida.
US air traffic controllers had just seconds earlier told the BA flight to start ascending from 16,000ft to 20,000ft when the emergency happened.
The emergency collision avoidance system on the Boeing 777 plane kicked in over the Atlantic Ocean, causing lights to flash and an alarm to sound in the cockpit, with the pilot hearing the words "descend,descend,descend."
The descent was so sudden that some of the crew members left the floor, went into "freefall" and hit their heads on the ceiling of the plane as it plummeted.
Others slammed into the bulkheads. All four crew were stood down from their duties while being treated for bruises on board in the Club cabin for the remainder of the flight.
They were met by paramedics when the plane landed at London Gatwick.
Injuries included back pains, bruises and swelling to arms and hands,
BA confirmed last night that the near miss is now being formally investigated by the US Federal Aviation Administration.
It said its pilots had acted properly and professionally but had been under the authority of US air traffic controllers when the emergency occurred.
Staff were praised for their handling of the emergency.
One eyewitness said: "I was on the Tampa flight. About 15 minutes into the climb the aircraft suddenly dropped out of the sky."
"Luckily all of other passengers were all still strapped in. But unfortunately the cabin crew were starting to prepare for service and were badly injured."
"At least four were so bad that they were unable to continue working."
The eye-witness said: "The captain came on and apologised saying that he had to take emergency evasion action to avoid a collision with another aircraft above him."
"There was a paramedic on board who apparently said 'It will be OK to continue but it was touch and go as to whether they return to Tampa."
BA confirmed that one of the forward Club class cabins was used as an impromptu sick-bay in which the injured stewardesses were treated and allowed to recuperate.
The eyewitness said: "I have been a frequent flyer for over 40 years and it is the scariest thing I have ever experienced."
"I'm off now to change my underwear."
Another said: "It felt like turbulence in the Club cabin but of course the poor guys and girls at the back got their freefall experience."
The stricken BA plane left Tampa, Florida at 6.30pm on Tuesday October 10 and landed at Gatwick at 8am on Wednesday October 11th. But details have only today emerged.
A BA spokesman said: "Our pilots were under the control of US air traffic controllers when the incident happened."
"They had been asked to ascend from 16,000ft to 20,000ft, but then told to hold at 16,500ft. At the same time the emergency collision avoidance system - TCAS- told our crew to descend. They followed this command."
BA said it did not know the identity of the other plane involved in the near miss - or how close - only that it had been above their plane.
Collision avoidance systems are programmed only to operate when a collision is likely and the safe space between aircraft - whether horizontally or vertically, has been compromised.
BA said: "We have filed a report with the US Federal Aviation Authority which is investigating."
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so, is the real question: is it better to be on a BA 777 with 4 inop f/a's or a BA 747 with one engine inop?
But thank goodness they were both under US air traffic control
;-)
PS
even danny might lighten up and laugh if he went to:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23371540-details/BA+jet+seconds+from+disaster+in+US+'near+collision'/article.do
it is the same article as above from a UK source and cool picture of a NON British Airways 777 with the caption regarding the atlantic
would still love to know how those who were injured are doing
But thank goodness they were both under US air traffic control
;-)
PS
even danny might lighten up and laugh if he went to:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23371540-details/BA+jet+seconds+from+disaster+in+US+'near+collision'/article.do
it is the same article as above from a UK source and cool picture of a NON British Airways 777 with the caption regarding the atlantic
would still love to know how those who were injured are doing
I was just about to post that article linked on Drudge, what a worhtless piece of drivel and the picture is "hilarious".
FWIW, I'm just an enthusiast and frequent flyer, from day 1 I have understood what this site is about, I keep my mouth shut in threads that I can't contribute to (the truth usually comes out by people that know what they are talking about, one of the things I love about this board) but some threads allow me to comment without sticking my foot in my mouth and for that I am grateful.
So to all the trolls, go back under your bridge and let the adults talk...
Seems like everything worked the way it should and good job to everyone involved, to keep on the subject at hand!
FWIW, I'm just an enthusiast and frequent flyer, from day 1 I have understood what this site is about, I keep my mouth shut in threads that I can't contribute to (the truth usually comes out by people that know what they are talking about, one of the things I love about this board) but some threads allow me to comment without sticking my foot in my mouth and for that I am grateful.
So to all the trolls, go back under your bridge and let the adults talk...
Seems like everything worked the way it should and good job to everyone involved, to keep on the subject at hand!
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I asked about that when being scolded for nipping for an emergency pee just before TOC with the SB light still on and the CC up and about, and was told, somewhat tartly "We're insured. You're not".
Lady Lexxington
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But details have only today emerged.
Nice work by the journos, how much do you paid for that?
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Just on the 1500L News on BBC Radio 2 - it was stated that the FAA have started an investigation into a mid-air incident involving a BA plane from Florida which had to decend "sharply" to avoid a Mid-Air Collision. No article on BBC News online, but it appears that either the FAA have a slow press office, or they like reading the Drudge Report/PPRuNe on their quieter days.
Jordan
Jordan
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mike jenvey and others responding to terrible news article.
this is why I get involved with a place like cnn...as you have all read and seen the article and picture of a completely different type of plane than the one involved and comment on such...why not do something?
why not speak out and try to explain to your news media what probably happened and not wait for the article to appear and be so awful?
It is better to have someone who actually has used TCAS to speak about what happened than have someone make it up and then publish it.
I think I finally started to speak out when I saw the headline "10 passengers die aboard Cessna 152". I hope that speaks for itself.
Obviously if a 777 pilot or any other pilot saw a TCAS RA, he had to respond to it.
The mention by top bunk of selecting the display to show almost 7000 feet higher is an important one. One can prepare with information gleaned from this method...if it is available.
the question about well being of injured and decision to continue will take time to judge. that judgement will be based on the long term health of the injured parties.
Some of you take such delight in attacking those of us who actually try to lift the media standards of aviation coverage. You are part of the problem as much as the publisher of this drudge report (and other sites).
jon
ps. on one of my airline's flights, someone got up to use the restroom with the seat belt sign illuminated...mamouth turbulence encounter(CAT), damage to aircraft and this poor man was left a paraplegic.
Stay in your seats as much as humanly possible with your seat belt fastened!
this is why I get involved with a place like cnn...as you have all read and seen the article and picture of a completely different type of plane than the one involved and comment on such...why not do something?
why not speak out and try to explain to your news media what probably happened and not wait for the article to appear and be so awful?
It is better to have someone who actually has used TCAS to speak about what happened than have someone make it up and then publish it.
I think I finally started to speak out when I saw the headline "10 passengers die aboard Cessna 152". I hope that speaks for itself.
Obviously if a 777 pilot or any other pilot saw a TCAS RA, he had to respond to it.
The mention by top bunk of selecting the display to show almost 7000 feet higher is an important one. One can prepare with information gleaned from this method...if it is available.
the question about well being of injured and decision to continue will take time to judge. that judgement will be based on the long term health of the injured parties.
Some of you take such delight in attacking those of us who actually try to lift the media standards of aviation coverage. You are part of the problem as much as the publisher of this drudge report (and other sites).
jon
ps. on one of my airline's flights, someone got up to use the restroom with the seat belt sign illuminated...mamouth turbulence encounter(CAT), damage to aircraft and this poor man was left a paraplegic.
Stay in your seats as much as humanly possible with your seat belt fastened!
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Seatbelt signs on = you are not insured by the airline's coverage if you choose to get up and are subsequently injured - therefore no liability.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Lucifer, I always used to agree with your views and acted accordingly. I did however ask a lawyer what his view was on CS carrying out non safety essential work with the SB signs ON and he didn't back me up, so watch and see what happens.
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Yet another article...
TAMPA, Fla. Oct 21, 2006 (AP)— Six people were injured when a British Airways passenger jet was ordered to descend after a small plane nearby triggered its collision warning system, officials said Saturday.
Four crew members and two passengers suffered cuts and bruises on the Oct. 10 flight from Tampa to London, British Airways spokesman Richard Goodfellow said Saturday.
Goodfellow said the aircraft, which had 175 passengers onboard, was put into a quick descent, dropping around 500 feet within seconds after the collision avoidance system went off.
However, the Federal Aviation Administration said Saturday the plane made a "controlled descent" of about 700 feet and was not in danger of collision.
FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen said the British Airways 777 was traveling 50 to 60 miles north of Tampa when it was first instructed by air traffic controllers to climb to 26,000 feet.
Meanwhile, a privately operated Beechcraft King Air was located a mile away and flying about 1,400 feet above the British Airways flight's altitude. The private aircraft told air traffic controllers that it was aware of the commercial airliner's position, Bergen said.
Air controllers instructed the British Airways flight, which had then reached an altitude of 16,800 feet, to go to 16,500 feet. The collision avoidance system was triggered and the pilot brought the plane down 700 feet in the controlled descent, Bergen said.
"British Airways didn't mention anything to air traffic control about injuries" during the flight, and the flight continued to London as planned, Bergen said.
She said the FAA was later notified by British Airways that four flight attendants received minor injuries.
Four crew members and two passengers suffered cuts and bruises on the Oct. 10 flight from Tampa to London, British Airways spokesman Richard Goodfellow said Saturday.
Goodfellow said the aircraft, which had 175 passengers onboard, was put into a quick descent, dropping around 500 feet within seconds after the collision avoidance system went off.
However, the Federal Aviation Administration said Saturday the plane made a "controlled descent" of about 700 feet and was not in danger of collision.
FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen said the British Airways 777 was traveling 50 to 60 miles north of Tampa when it was first instructed by air traffic controllers to climb to 26,000 feet.
Meanwhile, a privately operated Beechcraft King Air was located a mile away and flying about 1,400 feet above the British Airways flight's altitude. The private aircraft told air traffic controllers that it was aware of the commercial airliner's position, Bergen said.
Air controllers instructed the British Airways flight, which had then reached an altitude of 16,800 feet, to go to 16,500 feet. The collision avoidance system was triggered and the pilot brought the plane down 700 feet in the controlled descent, Bergen said.
"British Airways didn't mention anything to air traffic control about injuries" during the flight, and the flight continued to London as planned, Bergen said.
She said the FAA was later notified by British Airways that four flight attendants received minor injuries.
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