Crew incapacitation (Ryanair)
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Steve, some of Ali's reply is correct some not quite so. Each pilot is trained and tested to fly the aircraft from their respective seat. An FO from the right Capt from the left. Training Capts are normally qualified to fly from both seats so they can train both Capt and FO's, and some (very few) airlines elect to train some line Capts in both seats although only to the minimum requirement (dealing with an engine failure on TO in the sim, single eng go around and landing) in order that they can operate in the right hand seat when crewing are short of FO's.
When it comes to steering on the ground the tillers are very much dependent on what the airline ordered from the manufacturer. Many airlines only have a tiller on the left and as such their SOP's mean all aircraft control on the ground prior to line up and post landing is done by the Capt. Other airlines specified a fit with a tiller on each side and as such their SOP's have a much more even balance of conrol. On the FO's sector they will taxi as well as fly. In this case taxiing clear of the runway would pose no problem unless as has been mentioned in this particular incident the Emergency services would prefer the room around the aircraft on the runway to manoevre.
Desmo - I understand and agree that each pilot no matter what their experience level should be able to operate single handedly and as such I'm sure most operators have some form of incapacitation training and would not allow line training to be considered complete without a level of proficiency being demonstrated. However good the training and simulation is, being in an actual emergency situation is quite different. As I'm sure your professional experience has made you aware.
Considering the uneventful outcome of the incident which originated this thread I think a degree of back slapping and praise for a job well done is well deserved. We are rarely called to put into practice all we train to do and most of us realise that no matter how experienced we are, being single pilot is not high on our wish list of daily occurances.
I'm sure that when you were a mere frozen ATPL holder you would have been utterly unfazed by the events this colleague of ours found himself in and would have considered it just another day at the office. For that I commend your superior abilities and calmness.
I would also recommend that you are aware that you may be putting yourself in an uncomfartable situation by travelling with any major airline in the UK, all that I know of use 200hr FO's, so in the event of an incapacitation, you may find yourself in the very situation described here. In that case I hope the training given to the crew matches that of our Ryanair colleague as do their abilities and, and another uneventful and unpraiseworthy (lack of) incident ensues.
When it comes to steering on the ground the tillers are very much dependent on what the airline ordered from the manufacturer. Many airlines only have a tiller on the left and as such their SOP's mean all aircraft control on the ground prior to line up and post landing is done by the Capt. Other airlines specified a fit with a tiller on each side and as such their SOP's have a much more even balance of conrol. On the FO's sector they will taxi as well as fly. In this case taxiing clear of the runway would pose no problem unless as has been mentioned in this particular incident the Emergency services would prefer the room around the aircraft on the runway to manoevre.
Desmo - I understand and agree that each pilot no matter what their experience level should be able to operate single handedly and as such I'm sure most operators have some form of incapacitation training and would not allow line training to be considered complete without a level of proficiency being demonstrated. However good the training and simulation is, being in an actual emergency situation is quite different. As I'm sure your professional experience has made you aware.
Considering the uneventful outcome of the incident which originated this thread I think a degree of back slapping and praise for a job well done is well deserved. We are rarely called to put into practice all we train to do and most of us realise that no matter how experienced we are, being single pilot is not high on our wish list of daily occurances.
I'm sure that when you were a mere frozen ATPL holder you would have been utterly unfazed by the events this colleague of ours found himself in and would have considered it just another day at the office. For that I commend your superior abilities and calmness.
I would also recommend that you are aware that you may be putting yourself in an uncomfartable situation by travelling with any major airline in the UK, all that I know of use 200hr FO's, so in the event of an incapacitation, you may find yourself in the very situation described here. In that case I hope the training given to the crew matches that of our Ryanair colleague as do their abilities and, and another uneventful and unpraiseworthy (lack of) incident ensues.
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I'm sure that when you were a mere frozen ATPL holder you would have been utterly unfazed by the events this colleague of ours found himself in and would have considered it just another day at the office. For that I commend your superior abilities and calmness.
I would also recommend that you are aware that you may be putting yourself in an uncomfartable situation by travelling with any major airline in the UK, all that I know of use 200hr FO's, so in the event of an incapacitation, you may find yourself in the very situation described here. In that case I hope the training given to the crew matches that of our Ryanair colleague as do their abilities and, and another uneventful and unpraiseworthy (lack of) incident ensues.
I would also recommend that you are aware that you may be putting yourself in an uncomfartable situation by travelling with any major airline in the UK, all that I know of use 200hr FO's, so in the event of an incapacitation, you may find yourself in the very situation described here. In that case I hope the training given to the crew matches that of our Ryanair colleague as do their abilities and, and another uneventful and unpraiseworthy (lack of) incident ensues.
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Jazzykex I agree with most of what you said. 
Probably wasn't detailed enouth as to how you have put it. Thanks though.
CAPT's are trained in both seats if they complete the extra regulatory requirments as Jazzykex stated.
As to the A/C outfits with tillers. Ryanair A/C are only fitted with a tiller on the left. It does depend on airline and their requirments from the manufacturer as previously stated.
Just trying to keep it simple. Sorry.
Probably wasn't detailed enouth as to how you have put it. Thanks though.
CAPT's are trained in both seats if they complete the extra regulatory requirments as Jazzykex stated.
As to the A/C outfits with tillers. Ryanair A/C are only fitted with a tiller on the left. It does depend on airline and their requirments from the manufacturer as previously stated.
Just trying to keep it simple. Sorry.
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A few thoughts
Firstly, Well Done to F/O concerned.
His decisions and course of action worked.
As is the nature of the profession, all of these will be mercilessly scrtutinised and torn apart at great length by people with time and resources at hand which he did not have. Not necessarily a bad thing as we all can learn from events such as this.
This does not detract from the performance of the pilot on the scene (Remember as of the Captains incapacitation, he assumed command, as was his duty, and as a result was totally responsible for the outcomes of his actions on behalf of his A/C and passengers).
The thoughts:
Incapacitation (Both had it and exprienced it it from the other end myself) can be messy, smelly, very hazardous (pain spasm resuting in full rudder!) and always extremely stressful. The thread so far has dealt with the technical aspects only. This gentleman not only had a single crew diversion to handle, but had a very sick friend next to him, which multiplies the stress.
Finally well done to the chap concerned, plenty of people will second guess you, but you were there and made it work. I Will sit in your cabin any day (ex 744 CAPT).
Last bit, Amendment to Captain Incapacitation checklist:
1 Call for C/A assitance
2' HELP ME GET THIS SICK BASTARD OUT OF MY SEAT'
3 If in Big Airline, ensure death ( Medical assistance may be required, but given the right doctor with appropriate inducements, progression in seniority may be assured).
4 Divert to nearest suitable airport. (Bearing mind this is now P1 time, fuel is there to be burnt, and the chances of the captain remaining on the seniority list diminish both with time and the amount you have paid the Doctor---Lagos always looks good).
Well done to F/O, knowledge is not all, tempering by experience is an essential--looks like you had some
Good on you
His decisions and course of action worked.
As is the nature of the profession, all of these will be mercilessly scrtutinised and torn apart at great length by people with time and resources at hand which he did not have. Not necessarily a bad thing as we all can learn from events such as this.
This does not detract from the performance of the pilot on the scene (Remember as of the Captains incapacitation, he assumed command, as was his duty, and as a result was totally responsible for the outcomes of his actions on behalf of his A/C and passengers).
The thoughts:
Incapacitation (Both had it and exprienced it it from the other end myself) can be messy, smelly, very hazardous (pain spasm resuting in full rudder!) and always extremely stressful. The thread so far has dealt with the technical aspects only. This gentleman not only had a single crew diversion to handle, but had a very sick friend next to him, which multiplies the stress.
Finally well done to the chap concerned, plenty of people will second guess you, but you were there and made it work. I Will sit in your cabin any day (ex 744 CAPT).
Last bit, Amendment to Captain Incapacitation checklist:
1 Call for C/A assitance
2' HELP ME GET THIS SICK BASTARD OUT OF MY SEAT'
3 If in Big Airline, ensure death ( Medical assistance may be required, but given the right doctor with appropriate inducements, progression in seniority may be assured).
4 Divert to nearest suitable airport. (Bearing mind this is now P1 time, fuel is there to be burnt, and the chances of the captain remaining on the seniority list diminish both with time and the amount you have paid the Doctor---Lagos always looks good).
Well done to F/O, knowledge is not all, tempering by experience is an essential--looks like you had some
Good on you
Last edited by Fragman88; 13th Oct 2006 at 23:19. Reason: text
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Not comparing this to Kegworth but the very experienced captain there diverted to East Midlands which is an engineering base for BMI. This was probably his designated t/o alternate but there would probably have been a suitable diversion airport closer he could have made it into in quicker time.
The fact that the wrong engine was closed down didn't help matters but it has always struck me that for commercial reasons it is best to divert to a company base and maybe this was one of the reasons this f/o RTB'd.
The fact that the wrong engine was closed down didn't help matters but it has always struck me that for commercial reasons it is best to divert to a company base and maybe this was one of the reasons this f/o RTB'd.
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You are barking up the wrong tree ref Kegworth. When the failure occured in the climb out of LHR the aircraft was virtually over EMA and this or BHX would in any case have been the logical choices to land. In fact from the failure, until spooling up the "broken" but in-use engine, the engine had been pretty much at idle thrust after the wrong identification. In this instance, had for example the crew decided to divert back to LHR (just as an example) the need to re-apply thrust at a higher altitude "may" have given the time to be presented with the second ( broken) engine failing and a subsequent re-appraisal / relight. But of course that is pure congecture. Anyone taking the trouble to read the full AIB report of this accident, including ( many ignored too "expensive" )recommendations will see the causes and blame started , and finished on many other peoples/agencies doors.(Like the subsequent double shutdown glide-approach into LTN)
Well this beeing the rumour network.......I heard that the FO is fairly new to FR but otherwise 7000+ hrs. , 3000+ on the 737, and has flown as FC on the CRJ200.
Rgds. OY
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It has been mentioned that the FO was quite inexperienced
Surely the travelling public is entitled to ask why inexperienced pilots are allowed to be first officers. And surely there are enough highly qualified experienced pilots in the airline industry to be available for jobs as first officers.
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Unfortunately there are not as many as you may think as a pilot shortage looms many airlines have pilots with only 200-300 hours total time, but would not release them to line flying without a trainer without complete satisfaction.
Regardless of the experience level of the first officer in question, as a fare paying passenger I am shocked that any airline would have an inexperienced pilot as second in command. Is the First Mate on an ocean liner "inexperienced?" I very much doubt it. Is the Second in Command of HM warships "inexperienced?" No way. So why are airlines employing inexperienced pilots on the flight deck of a jet airliner. I would have thought there would be higher insurance premiums as a penalty?
Surely the travelling public is entitled to ask why inexperienced pilots are allowed to be first officers. And surely there are enough highly qualified experienced pilots in the airline industry to be available for jobs as first officers.
Surely the travelling public is entitled to ask why inexperienced pilots are allowed to be first officers. And surely there are enough highly qualified experienced pilots in the airline industry to be available for jobs as first officers.
Without even getting in to the discussion on whether a well trained though inexperienced ab-initio FO could be better than a experienced not so well trained FO, you as a paying customer get what you are paying for. If you want to be absolutely sure you only have experienced people sitting up front, you have just limited yourself to legacy carriers longhaul .
That beeing said, nothing is perfect in this world. The next time you call an electrician do you want an inexperienced local, or a highly experienced guy from somewhere far away where the training standards might not be what you would expect ??
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Experience !
A37575
Apologies but IMVHO "what a load of BUNKUM.
1) When sombody get a driving license - can he drive - the right answer is probably - "In theory yes - but he/she lacks practice" - so off he/she goes alone in traffic - and if he/she survives for a number of hours then - great.
2) When sombody learns to fly it is a bit similar - youngsters sometimes go solo at 5-20 hours - but 40 hours is normal to be let free with the paperwork. Then they get experience - alone, but as often as not with others who are more experienced with them. At around 200 hours an airline may consider them - and test them in a simulator. They do it all in a simulator and then - they get let out with passengers. Note that their initial instructor might not have had more than 500+ hours !!!
3) The real difference is that next to them is a captain who is a) responsible and b) has a bit more experience. I know captains with only 1'000 hours, but that is not common. Most have 2'000+ before they make the left seat.
4) The real difference between a car and a plane is a) the simulator training and regular 6 monthly retests and having the boss next to you while you do much of the physical work.
YOUR fears are almost certainly totally unfounded - me I get more nervous when I have 2 captains with 10'000+ hours each sitting right & left or a captain and F/O with that number of hours who know each other very well - why.... COMPLACENCY......(after all they may be getting boared, lazy and even smug, especially if its not a string and sealingwax operation or long haul where the amount of critical time experience can be a joke compared to somebody driving a city hopper).
Any of you drivers care to comment or 
...
Thought - would it not be most interesting and instructive if anybody could be bothered to compile a set of statistics from the accidents reported as to the number that were F/O PIC's and number of hours of the left & right hand seats at the time - ideal would also be the number of cycles flown by each at the time also and whether the other pilot tried to "take control to avert the event".
If a company is happy to trust a pilot with their multi million dollar plane, why should I not trust that they want to keep their reputation and allow them to take care of my life. The risks just crossing the road are 1'000's of times higher every day a- a logically proven statistic !!!!!
Apologies but IMVHO "what a load of BUNKUM.
1) When sombody get a driving license - can he drive - the right answer is probably - "In theory yes - but he/she lacks practice" - so off he/she goes alone in traffic - and if he/she survives for a number of hours then - great.
2) When sombody learns to fly it is a bit similar - youngsters sometimes go solo at 5-20 hours - but 40 hours is normal to be let free with the paperwork. Then they get experience - alone, but as often as not with others who are more experienced with them. At around 200 hours an airline may consider them - and test them in a simulator. They do it all in a simulator and then - they get let out with passengers. Note that their initial instructor might not have had more than 500+ hours !!!
3) The real difference is that next to them is a captain who is a) responsible and b) has a bit more experience. I know captains with only 1'000 hours, but that is not common. Most have 2'000+ before they make the left seat.
4) The real difference between a car and a plane is a) the simulator training and regular 6 monthly retests and having the boss next to you while you do much of the physical work.
YOUR fears are almost certainly totally unfounded - me I get more nervous when I have 2 captains with 10'000+ hours each sitting right & left or a captain and F/O with that number of hours who know each other very well - why.... COMPLACENCY......(after all they may be getting boared, lazy and even smug, especially if its not a string and sealingwax operation or long haul where the amount of critical time experience can be a joke compared to somebody driving a city hopper).
Any of you drivers care to comment
or ... Thought - would it not be most interesting and instructive if anybody could be bothered to compile a set of statistics from the accidents reported as to the number that were F/O PIC's and number of hours of the left & right hand seats at the time - ideal would also be the number of cycles flown by each at the time also and whether the other pilot tried to "take control to avert the event".
If a company is happy to trust a pilot with their multi million dollar plane, why should I not trust that they want to keep their reputation and allow them to take care of my life. The risks just crossing the road are 1'000's of times higher every day a- a logically proven statistic !!!!!
Last edited by gofer; 18th Oct 2006 at 19:01.
Say your a low hours FO and this happens. You get a message from the CC that an experienced Captain is sat in the back as pax and has offered to come in and give you a hand, do you accept? Are we allowed?
Yes we are trained for this sort of thing but would it make matters easier?
Yes we are trained for this sort of thing but would it make matters easier?
bingo! we have a winner. how is having the FO land the aircraft (usually happens EVERY OTHER LANDING WORLDWIDE EVERY DAY, 24 HOURS A DAY) an emergency?
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For all those that insisted otherwise, this was published in an updated document for Line Trainers by FR themselves under the heading of crew incapacitation:
5. If occupying the RHS do not attempt to clear the runway or taxi the aircraft after landing. Stop the aircraft on the runway, shutdown the engines and allow medical assistance on board.
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that's why i think airbus SOP is good. first officers are allowed, because of the redundancy feature of the airbus cockpit, to taxi in and taxi out the aircraft off the runway.
the company where i am currently working follows 100% airbus standard. i believe this is a good company culture as first officers are given the chance to exercise their command abilities and develop their potentials for captaincy later on.
congrats to the f/o for a job well done! you can be my wingman anytime!!!
cheers!
the company where i am currently working follows 100% airbus standard. i believe this is a good company culture as first officers are given the chance to exercise their command abilities and develop their potentials for captaincy later on.
congrats to the f/o for a job well done! you can be my wingman anytime!!!
cheers!
