British European and BHD
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Tresaurus OR Captain Sir
AH I think I`m gonna have to arrange for a psyc a psyc a psyc, sorry Tresausrus do mean psychometric> AH thanks I bter get started
1km=999m 1kg=999gm
1m=99.9cm 1gm=3oz
1cm=2.54mm
also,
Dash8:cruising alt. 39000m above the wx.
cruising speed 457km
when powered by CFM56-SA1 giving
25000kgf with the mixture fully fwd.
A320:cruising alt. 16000m in the crap
cruising speed about 270km give & take
when powered by pw120 giving about
19000kg again give & take with
mixture leaned.
I think I start again 1km=999,1m=......
How I am doing tresaurus?
AH I think I`m gonna have to arrange for a psyc a psyc a psyc, sorry Tresausrus do mean psychometric> AH thanks I bter get started
1km=999m 1kg=999gm
1m=99.9cm 1gm=3oz
1cm=2.54mm
also,
Dash8:cruising alt. 39000m above the wx.
cruising speed 457km
when powered by CFM56-SA1 giving
25000kgf with the mixture fully fwd.
A320:cruising alt. 16000m in the crap
cruising speed about 270km give & take
when powered by pw120 giving about
19000kg again give & take with
mixture leaned.
I think I start again 1km=999,1m=......
How I am doing tresaurus?
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Hmmm, not sure how to follow that!
Fascinating thread, looking forward to Thesaurus responding.
One small point for exemouth, I don't represent BE on this forum, I represent myself... all comments, opinions, etc are mine and mine alone. As far as PPRuNe is concerned I am a private individual and make absolutely no claims to speak for BE. That Thesaurus has (allegedly) discovered my identity doesn't change that- the forum is supposed to be anonymous.
Fascinating thread, looking forward to Thesaurus responding.
One small point for exemouth, I don't represent BE on this forum, I represent myself... all comments, opinions, etc are mine and mine alone. As far as PPRuNe is concerned I am a private individual and make absolutely no claims to speak for BE. That Thesaurus has (allegedly) discovered my identity doesn't change that- the forum is supposed to be anonymous.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Next person to put a reply in here that includes swearing gets barred. Don't need it and won't put up with it. If you can't debate or argue and only have the capaciity for expletives and silly, one line comments do everyone a favour and go elsewhere!
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Most of the flights are 1hr 10min from off to on stand,flight time going in to LHR is about 55mins to 1hr and 5mins,going back to BHD flight time is around 50 to 53 mins or 1hr 5 mins block to block.
The extra time on the timetable is to allow for unexpected delays which happen once in a while(none since operating out of BHD).
Therefore if a pax expects the flight to take 1hr 20mins then anything less is a bonus.
Raw,as for making money on the route,well lets see,just approaching end off week one,
Min loads 85% of which there have been few.
Normally 100% plus the option for the A321 on the route.
I think its doing a bit better than your Bristol!
I glad your not JEA/BEA spokesperson on this forum as your doing a good job at upseting enough pax.
So I think you'd be better accepting rule 1
P.S. whos the low cost carrier looking to do Gatwick? hhhhhmmmmmmmm
If our little A320 gets up your nose just wait till you see the mess an A321 will do!
Read it and weep!
Life is like a wheelbarrow,its all in front of you!
Rgds K.I.L.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: keepitlit ]
The extra time on the timetable is to allow for unexpected delays which happen once in a while(none since operating out of BHD).
Therefore if a pax expects the flight to take 1hr 20mins then anything less is a bonus.
Raw,as for making money on the route,well lets see,just approaching end off week one,
Min loads 85% of which there have been few.
Normally 100% plus the option for the A321 on the route.
I think its doing a bit better than your Bristol!
I glad your not JEA/BEA spokesperson on this forum as your doing a good job at upseting enough pax.
So I think you'd be better accepting rule 1
P.S. whos the low cost carrier looking to do Gatwick? hhhhhmmmmmmmm
If our little A320 gets up your nose just wait till you see the mess an A321 will do!
Read it and weep!
Life is like a wheelbarrow,its all in front of you!
Rgds K.I.L.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: keepitlit ]
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It was a necessity for BE to down grade from the 146 to the D8 on the LCY route, as the load factor was between 20-30% hence each flight was losing money. The difference in flight time/ block time is approximately ten minutes. Rotations have increased on the service, which allows passengers the flexibility that the business community requires.
Oh and Thesaurus, the schedule for the winter was adjusted for the Dash 8's extra block time, further more in the winter the Dash cruises at a similar level to the 146. As such an experienced pilot, you would know that the 146 used most often on the BHD-LCY cannot cruise above 25,000ft in known or FORCAST icing conditions.
BE has been restructuring to try to cut its overheads and if using Dash instead of a 146 means the company will still be operating this route in 6 months time then I do not mind spending another 10 minutes in an aircraft.
As far as BMI with the Bus is concerned, horses for courses. Passengers travelling to LCY will be out of the terminal before the LHR passengers have got to the baggage carousel. Obviously LHR is the preferred destination if you are going to travel onwards.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: Phillipa Hole ]
Oh and Thesaurus, the schedule for the winter was adjusted for the Dash 8's extra block time, further more in the winter the Dash cruises at a similar level to the 146. As such an experienced pilot, you would know that the 146 used most often on the BHD-LCY cannot cruise above 25,000ft in known or FORCAST icing conditions.
BE has been restructuring to try to cut its overheads and if using Dash instead of a 146 means the company will still be operating this route in 6 months time then I do not mind spending another 10 minutes in an aircraft.
As far as BMI with the Bus is concerned, horses for courses. Passengers travelling to LCY will be out of the terminal before the LHR passengers have got to the baggage carousel. Obviously LHR is the preferred destination if you are going to travel onwards.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: Phillipa Hole ]
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keepitlit: leaving aside your obvious loyalty to BMI, you miss the main point- yields and yield management. It matters little how full the aircraft are if the yields aren't there- just ask Go or Ryanair about that on the Scotland-Dublin routes.
Now it is absolutely obvious that most companies are haemorrhaging money at the moment, hence the recent spate of layoffs and aircraft withdrawals. Unfortunately, BMI fall into that category, and clearly more so than most as recent events bear out. I say that with absolutely no happiness whatsoever, I have been on the receiving end of company downsizing and bankruptcy a couple of times and I know exactly what it feels like. Your previous post where you mentioned "kicking people when they are down" is quite out of order, I was simply stating the facts. If it is worth anything to you, I've been there, I sympathise and if it was within my power to do so, I'd employ all laid off pilots tommorrow morning.
Turning to your point about customers, as I have said I do not represent BE, this is not a Customer Service forum, and the right to say what you think within the established rules is the basis of this forum.
Now, you may think that I shouldn't say anything that could be construed as being arguable by a passenger. I say that this is a Professional Pilots Rumour Network, where (unfortunately in my opinion) large numbers of pax and journos now check in hoping to get the inside scoop. I know, from the number of emails I have received in the last couple of days, that I am simply saying what most pilots think.
Rule 1 is a myth. Most people instinctively know that, and some of the posts here confirm it by both quote and example. The reason we all have Customer Service departments is because of that- their job is to bridge the gulf between the often-wrong passengers and reality. All CS departments know that many disputes are unwinnable, and that seemingly-normal people can turn into rabid beasts when it comes to complaining.
For example- sitting in SOU some years ago, we delayed departure as EDI, GLA, ABZ etc were all 200m in fog. I was accosted by a pax who had been on the phone to Bracknell, and he informed me that the wx was fine and that I should stop *^@~ing about and get on with it. By Rule 1, I should therefore immediately depart- but we all know that Rule 1 is nonsense. There was no easy way to reach agreement with this person; he was, as many pax are, completely unreasonable and quite ignorant of the basics of aviation (although he thought he was an expert).
Another example- just last week, a pax refused to sit down because he couldn't have the seat he wanted (due to a computer outage in check-in). By Rule 1, we would have been delayed for an eternity sorting out and would have missed our slot. In fact, he was told to sit down or get off- which met with hearty applause from the other 109 pax who were being delayed. Try applying Rule 1 in that situation.
It is important to realise that oft-quoted, pithy statements do not necessarily constitute reality. It is also worthy of note how many people that bleat on about Rule 1 are guilty of breaking it.
The other thing you perhaps need to realise is that often, people on PPRuNe are not who they seem. There can be layers upon layers of deceit and subterfuge, and sometimes people who claim to be one thing (ie a professional pilot) are actually another (ie the press)- hence the big red warning. Sometimes, it turns out to be a colleague on a point-scoring exercise.
In the case at hand (assuming you believe all that has been posted), the business had already been lost, and the subsequent threats regarding employees and suppliers are childish in the extreme and represent poor business judgement, as other have noted.
Others have already questioned the veracity of friend Thesaurus. I hope he can furnish the requested details so that we can check the facts, but I'm not holding my breath.
I don't really want to say any more on the subject, on this thread, as it has drifted way too far off topic. Email me if you want to continue the discussion.
Now it is absolutely obvious that most companies are haemorrhaging money at the moment, hence the recent spate of layoffs and aircraft withdrawals. Unfortunately, BMI fall into that category, and clearly more so than most as recent events bear out. I say that with absolutely no happiness whatsoever, I have been on the receiving end of company downsizing and bankruptcy a couple of times and I know exactly what it feels like. Your previous post where you mentioned "kicking people when they are down" is quite out of order, I was simply stating the facts. If it is worth anything to you, I've been there, I sympathise and if it was within my power to do so, I'd employ all laid off pilots tommorrow morning.
Turning to your point about customers, as I have said I do not represent BE, this is not a Customer Service forum, and the right to say what you think within the established rules is the basis of this forum.
Now, you may think that I shouldn't say anything that could be construed as being arguable by a passenger. I say that this is a Professional Pilots Rumour Network, where (unfortunately in my opinion) large numbers of pax and journos now check in hoping to get the inside scoop. I know, from the number of emails I have received in the last couple of days, that I am simply saying what most pilots think.
Rule 1 is a myth. Most people instinctively know that, and some of the posts here confirm it by both quote and example. The reason we all have Customer Service departments is because of that- their job is to bridge the gulf between the often-wrong passengers and reality. All CS departments know that many disputes are unwinnable, and that seemingly-normal people can turn into rabid beasts when it comes to complaining.
For example- sitting in SOU some years ago, we delayed departure as EDI, GLA, ABZ etc were all 200m in fog. I was accosted by a pax who had been on the phone to Bracknell, and he informed me that the wx was fine and that I should stop *^@~ing about and get on with it. By Rule 1, I should therefore immediately depart- but we all know that Rule 1 is nonsense. There was no easy way to reach agreement with this person; he was, as many pax are, completely unreasonable and quite ignorant of the basics of aviation (although he thought he was an expert).
Another example- just last week, a pax refused to sit down because he couldn't have the seat he wanted (due to a computer outage in check-in). By Rule 1, we would have been delayed for an eternity sorting out and would have missed our slot. In fact, he was told to sit down or get off- which met with hearty applause from the other 109 pax who were being delayed. Try applying Rule 1 in that situation.
It is important to realise that oft-quoted, pithy statements do not necessarily constitute reality. It is also worthy of note how many people that bleat on about Rule 1 are guilty of breaking it.
The other thing you perhaps need to realise is that often, people on PPRuNe are not who they seem. There can be layers upon layers of deceit and subterfuge, and sometimes people who claim to be one thing (ie a professional pilot) are actually another (ie the press)- hence the big red warning. Sometimes, it turns out to be a colleague on a point-scoring exercise.
In the case at hand (assuming you believe all that has been posted), the business had already been lost, and the subsequent threats regarding employees and suppliers are childish in the extreme and represent poor business judgement, as other have noted.
Others have already questioned the veracity of friend Thesaurus. I hope he can furnish the requested details so that we can check the facts, but I'm not holding my breath.
I don't really want to say any more on the subject, on this thread, as it has drifted way too far off topic. Email me if you want to continue the discussion.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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RAW DATA, It's nice to see that you only think about the pilots! What about all the cabin crew and back room staff that have been or are about to be made redundant from the company that you so strongly defend? They don't even seem to merrit a mention? It's nice to see that you hold them in the same contempt that you seem to hold every one else who isn't a pilot for BE? 
So please crawl back into the hole from which you came and give us all a rest!!!!!
So please crawl back into the hole from which you came and give us all a rest!!!!!
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Just a point to make, on page one of this thread, some person (fandango or something) indicated very strongly that business travellers always prefer jets to props. I must be the exception. I really really enjoy prop aircraft (its my hobby after all) - even when on business. Give me a turboprop any day - a proper aircraft.
As regards London city services, the big advantage is the speed on ground, getting out/in airport, and general lack of delays.
I can't understand the vitriol in this thread, as if I want to fly to LHR I do so, if I want to go to city, I do so - and that is what most people on business do. I can't quite grasp the mentality regarding never using british european again, because on one occasion a flight was changed/delayed - that's just dumb.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: flypastpastfast ]
As regards London city services, the big advantage is the speed on ground, getting out/in airport, and general lack of delays.
I can't understand the vitriol in this thread, as if I want to fly to LHR I do so, if I want to go to city, I do so - and that is what most people on business do. I can't quite grasp the mentality regarding never using british european again, because on one occasion a flight was changed/delayed - that's just dumb.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: flypastpastfast ]
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Thesaurus,
what does the amount of money on your account have to do with this topic? Your reply was simly sad.
You may be a CEO or whatever, it does not give you the right to use a FREE forum in order to deliberately discredit people and use your so-called power to change peoples opinions. I for one know that every airline has its mishaps, and if you were a real industry leader you would know that.
Also, The normal cruising level for a flight London to Belfast will be about the same for turboprop and Jet, with one difference, the prop will be more efficient...
I am not deliberately going after you, but I have a feeling that you have overreacted and that you have a deeper lying cause for this. Next time, try to keep your "powers" out of this forum, or we could all start this way, and you would maybe find it suddenly a lot harder to get new slots for example...
what does the amount of money on your account have to do with this topic? Your reply was simly sad.
You may be a CEO or whatever, it does not give you the right to use a FREE forum in order to deliberately discredit people and use your so-called power to change peoples opinions. I for one know that every airline has its mishaps, and if you were a real industry leader you would know that.
Also, The normal cruising level for a flight London to Belfast will be about the same for turboprop and Jet, with one difference, the prop will be more efficient...
I am not deliberately going after you, but I have a feeling that you have overreacted and that you have a deeper lying cause for this. Next time, try to keep your "powers" out of this forum, or we could all start this way, and you would maybe find it suddenly a lot harder to get new slots for example...
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keepitlit. Thanxs for the info on your block times etc. I find this quite interesting. However, in reply to the latter part of your post I beg to differ. Since BMI have operated out of BHD I have seen more delay inducing problems at the airport than at most other times. You said you have had none since operating here. Is this due to the "big brother" attitude displayed by your airport staff since working here? Isn't it normal for airlines to increase the scheduled block time to account for delays etc. You make it sound like BMI have introduced a revelation. I wish BMI the best of luck out of BHD. But please remember that you are just another airline like the rest of us and your A320/321 really doesn't make me jealous at all. Yes I would like to have the opportunity to fly one. But I'm quite happy flying my wobbly prop from an airport that we are able to WORK with our colleages on the ground. I suspect we can actually say we have flown a real aircraft at the end of the day, that displays real aircraft "feel". You may percieve this as bitterness from my part but I do wonder how long the BMI ego at the city will last. Please come down to earth and join the rest of us mere propeller/whisperjet drivers at some point, I would certainly prefer to work with you as opposed to against you.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]
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My replys are only as a defence from the slagging weve got since the news was released,as for flying the bus it is at the end of the day another aircraft and am just lucky to have had the chance to have a go.
Iwould gladly go back to driving a turboprop as it was good fun.
I wasn't trying to state that it was better than anything else or "be in the clouds about it".
I remember when i started to get paid for the privilage,all that mattered was
1. Aircraft
2. Money
3. Quality of life
As i am sure most of you are aware the roles soon reversed to,
1. Quality of life
2. Money
3. Aircraft
So please dont take any offence,I just try to express my thoughts in these crazy times.
Raw,I just try to give our side,no hard feelings,Keepitlit
Rgds K.I.L.
Iwould gladly go back to driving a turboprop as it was good fun.
I wasn't trying to state that it was better than anything else or "be in the clouds about it".
I remember when i started to get paid for the privilage,all that mattered was
1. Aircraft
2. Money
3. Quality of life
As i am sure most of you are aware the roles soon reversed to,
1. Quality of life
2. Money
3. Aircraft
So please dont take any offence,I just try to express my thoughts in these crazy times.
Raw,I just try to give our side,no hard feelings,Keepitlit
Rgds K.I.L.
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Perhaps BE have a short memory... History is a great thing.
All BE have to do is look 100 miles down the road from BHD to see what happens when you swith a 146 to a turboprop.
About four years ago CityJet had a great idea to downsize to a S2000 and up frequencies. Just at the same time that BD launched the A321 from the same pier. (little and large)
Great Idea... but did they ask the fare paying public? No... they flew to EGHH instead! Within six months, the 146's were back, but the passengers had been burnt once. CityJet were off the route six months later- Handing the route to BE, who also lasted six months!
Rule 1 ... SLF don't like aircraft that look like they have come straight from a Casablanca set! They may be six months old... but you try telling that to a business person who thinks he is getting a second rate service for a similar price to that shiney new A320 parked next door.
Rule 2.... If SLF don't have a choice between Prop and Jet... ignore Rule 1. They have no choice!
[ 05 November 2001: Message edited by: Best Western ]
All BE have to do is look 100 miles down the road from BHD to see what happens when you swith a 146 to a turboprop.
About four years ago CityJet had a great idea to downsize to a S2000 and up frequencies. Just at the same time that BD launched the A321 from the same pier. (little and large)
Great Idea... but did they ask the fare paying public? No... they flew to EGHH instead! Within six months, the 146's were back, but the passengers had been burnt once. CityJet were off the route six months later- Handing the route to BE, who also lasted six months!
Rule 1 ... SLF don't like aircraft that look like they have come straight from a Casablanca set! They may be six months old... but you try telling that to a business person who thinks he is getting a second rate service for a similar price to that shiney new A320 parked next door.
Rule 2.... If SLF don't have a choice between Prop and Jet... ignore Rule 1. They have no choice!
[ 05 November 2001: Message edited by: Best Western ]
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Well, judging by the unwillingness or inability of thesaurus to respond to questions asked of him, I think we can safely assume that he is what a lot of us thought he was, ie a windup merchant!
There's a lesson there for the likes of twinboom and others: try not to be so gullible...
The defense rests, M'lud...
There's a lesson there for the likes of twinboom and others: try not to be so gullible...
The defense rests, M'lud...
MOR, my dear chap(ess). By what mechanism or means do you ~KNOW that Thesaurus has not replied to the questions posed? (S)he hasn't to me, but you only KNOW that 'cos I've posted to that effect right now, or you are (s)he, or some other 'inside info' - none of which establishes my alleged gullibility.
I did actually take some care in my choice of words to offer my services "if and only if" (as the logicians would say) peoples bona fides were as declared, all round. I have no problem with rejection of that offer.
I would also declare that I do not wish BE (or BMI) 's continued successful operation at BHD to be conpromised by short-term'ist errors by the airport management - which is where we came in!
I did actually take some care in my choice of words to offer my services "if and only if" (as the logicians would say) peoples bona fides were as declared, all round. I have no problem with rejection of that offer.
I would also declare that I do not wish BE (or BMI) 's continued successful operation at BHD to be conpromised by short-term'ist errors by the airport management - which is where we came in!
