Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
From a controllers point I was trained to watch EVERY take-off and EVERY landing (yes I know you can't do that in fog) and on the landings to make sure I saw the wheels down (which saved embarrassment on a few occasions)
Even with this instilled it is still encumbent on the pilot doing the right thing where it may be difficult for the controller to see anything unusual - it may have been difficult for the controller in this case to actually perceive the aircraft rolling on the wrong runway until it was well into the take-off roll.
There was a very lucky accident which fortunately resulted in no loss of life at Sydney back in the late 60's. A a DC8 on a dark rainy night back tracked up RWY16 after being told "take taxyway right, call ground on...." The pilot thought the ADC said "backtrack if you like" and did just that. As the DC8 had called on ground freq and appeared to be taxying along the parallel taxyway, a B727 was cleared for take-off on RWY16. The airborne B727 had its belly opened up like a sardine can by the tail of the DC8 but managed to scarp around the circuit without hydraulics and land safely. Brilliant effort Jimmy James!
An example of all procedures followed but still an accident.
And by the way worked at a then fairly busy non radar tower with a mixture of jet, turbines and bug smashers and workload priorities dictated that the provision of visual separation and watching each take-off and landing were the highest on the list. From seeing some operations in recent times it seems that.... nah won't even go there!!
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Not really.....
Even if you're a bad pilot, you may still be alive because all holes in your cheese have not yet lined up yet for you.
Neither do I think those Comair pilots were bad pilots.... they ran into a "chain of events" that woke up and bit them..... with the awful consequences we know.
Which reminds me... what about the F/O ? He's stayed in my thoughts, but I've not seen any more news about how he's doing.
Even if you're a bad pilot, you may still be alive because all holes in your cheese have not yet lined up yet for you.
Neither do I think those Comair pilots were bad pilots.... they ran into a "chain of events" that woke up and bit them..... with the awful consequences we know.
Which reminds me... what about the F/O ? He's stayed in my thoughts, but I've not seen any more news about how he's doing.
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According to a Lexington TV station, his condition is serious and as of 5 SEP he had undergone his third surgery since the crash.
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one question to you all: if you ran out of runway and decided to fly, would you FIREWALL THROTTLES?
OR : would you firewall throttles and pull a taj mahal alla EK GANN? Some of you will know what this means...others, feel free to ask.
OR : would you firewall throttles and pull a taj mahal alla EK GANN? Some of you will know what this means...others, feel free to ask.
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Also we don't know what the FOD from those trees did.
OR : would you firewall throttles and pull a taj mahal à la EK GANN? Some of you will know what this means...
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CJ
so would you have done the EK gann maneuver or not?
also, with all the windshear training these days, one would know if the type of engine would be prone to problems at firewall power...
j
so would you have done the EK gann maneuver or not?
also, with all the windshear training these days, one would know if the type of engine would be prone to problems at firewall power...
j
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but he still has not discussed the accident.
I wonder if he can remember it, as I understand it is common in severe trauma to lose some memory.
I feel very sorry for this man, he is likely to suffer from a nasty attack of survivor syndrome - I do hope that he makes a full recovery in every sense and is able to return to a semblance of his normal life.
I wonder if he can remember it, as I understand it is common in severe trauma to lose some memory.
I feel very sorry for this man, he is likely to suffer from a nasty attack of survivor syndrome - I do hope that he makes a full recovery in every sense and is able to return to a semblance of his normal life.
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It's kind of a funny thing. You do the best you can all the time, you usually double-check yourself. But now and then you notice that you forgot something, or, you made a mistake. So, you say next time you'll be more careful, and next time you are.
Most of the time the "mistake" means nothing, but sometimes, the wrong mistake happens at the wrong time.
When you've flown long enough, sooner or later you meet a pilot, or two, who's a real fool. But, as fate would have it, he retires happy.
EK Gann? "Fate is the hunter."
It is very sad.
Most of the time the "mistake" means nothing, but sometimes, the wrong mistake happens at the wrong time.
When you've flown long enough, sooner or later you meet a pilot, or two, who's a real fool. But, as fate would have it, he retires happy.
EK Gann? "Fate is the hunter."
It is very sad.
411A
I have immense respect for your comments as they generally show a regard for experience and airmanship which now, unfortunately, is being priced out of this industry because it costs money.
The CEOs of the various newer companies will not be at all concerned about the safety record of their company if it can be shown the crew are at fault when an accident occurs.
Shamefully, many of the new flightcrew in the industry are not aware that this transfer of blame has taken place and therefore rely on company procedures or ATC, who are equally cash strapped, to keep them out of trouble.
I'm afraid that after engine start, I'm often filling out company paperwork or trying to update FMCs or deal with cabin crap while taxying due to the pressure we're all under these days to keep it rolling on short turnrounds.
The guys with experience are censured if they can't cope with it, and those without experience don't know any better.
The CEOs of the various newer companies will not be at all concerned about the safety record of their company if it can be shown the crew are at fault when an accident occurs.
Shamefully, many of the new flightcrew in the industry are not aware that this transfer of blame has taken place and therefore rely on company procedures or ATC, who are equally cash strapped, to keep them out of trouble.
I'm afraid that after engine start, I'm often filling out company paperwork or trying to update FMCs or deal with cabin crap while taxying due to the pressure we're all under these days to keep it rolling on short turnrounds.
The guys with experience are censured if they can't cope with it, and those without experience don't know any better.
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Great News! First Officer is awake
Associated Press Story - click on link for full story
Ky. Plane Crash Survivor Asks 'Why?'
By JEFFREY McMURRAY
Associated Press Writer
LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) -- The sole survivor of a plane crash that killed 49 people near the Lexington airport last week told family members from his hospital bed, "Why did God do this to me?" but he hasn't mentioned the crash, a close family friend said Wednesday.
James Polehinke, who was the flight's co-pilot, can move only his head, and tears often well up in his eyes, said Antonio Cruz, Polehinke's mother's boyfriend. He said the 44-year-old has been in and out of consciousness.
Polehinke hasn't mentioned the crash and doctors have encouraged family members not to ask him about it, Cruz told The Associated Press.
By JEFFREY McMURRAY
Associated Press Writer
LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) -- The sole survivor of a plane crash that killed 49 people near the Lexington airport last week told family members from his hospital bed, "Why did God do this to me?" but he hasn't mentioned the crash, a close family friend said Wednesday.
James Polehinke, who was the flight's co-pilot, can move only his head, and tears often well up in his eyes, said Antonio Cruz, Polehinke's mother's boyfriend. He said the 44-year-old has been in and out of consciousness.
Polehinke hasn't mentioned the crash and doctors have encouraged family members not to ask him about it, Cruz told The Associated Press.
jondc9
"we are taking a wrong turn somewhere when flying no longer comes first"
Yet, there is no safer time within the history of airline flying to fly.
You and many others lament about the "I remember when", good ole days philosophy an awful lot. Funny, back in those days a bunch more aircraft crashed and folks died as a result. Through all types of advances today is the safest our industry has ever been.
"we are taking a wrong turn somewhere when flying no longer comes first"
Yet, there is no safer time within the history of airline flying to fly.
You and many others lament about the "I remember when", good ole days philosophy an awful lot. Funny, back in those days a bunch more aircraft crashed and folks died as a result. Through all types of advances today is the safest our industry has ever been.
Psychophysiological entity
This is true, but we must not take too much comfort from this.
When an accident does happen, it often appears to be due to a lack of old time skills, or even more bizarrely, modern techniques and BS paperwork getting in the way of such skill.
hec7or's comment says it all really.
When an accident does happen, it often appears to be due to a lack of old time skills, or even more bizarrely, modern techniques and BS paperwork getting in the way of such skill.
hec7or's comment says it all really.
I'm afraid that after engine start, I'm often filling out company paperwork or trying to update FMCs or deal with cabin crap while taxying due to the pressure we're all under these days to keep it rolling on short turnrounds.
We as an industry can always do better. I simply tire of reading comments that indicate things were better back when the poster was actively involved in aviation.
I'm sure that somewhere within the records there is a similar event from many decades ago,in which basic airmenship slipped up. Old time skills or not.
Sometimes we need to stop and remember this is the safest modern transport aviation has ever been before comments about the good old days come up. In 20 years hopefully it will be even safer, yet the I remember when folks will still be around.
I'm sure that somewhere within the records there is a similar event from many decades ago,in which basic airmenship slipped up. Old time skills or not.
Sometimes we need to stop and remember this is the safest modern transport aviation has ever been before comments about the good old days come up. In 20 years hopefully it will be even safer, yet the I remember when folks will still be around.
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"we are taking a wrong turn somewhere when flying no longer comes first"
Yet, there is no safer time within the history of airline flying to fly.
Yet, there is no safer time within the history of airline flying to fly.
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All the ATC understaffing / diverted attention / implied neglect is a diversion, IMHO, because even if ATC had the possibility of calling a low-speed abort (thus no damage done), any remedy applied here would not help the case of an uncontrolled airport.
The error originated in the cockpit, and needed to be resolved RIGHT THERE.
The error originated in the cockpit, and needed to be resolved RIGHT THERE.
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Originally Posted by ChristiaanJ
Not really.....
Even if you're a bad pilot, you may still be alive because all holes in your cheese have not yet lined up yet for you Neither do I think those Comair pilots were bad pilots.... they ran into a "chain of events" that woke up and bit them..... with the awful consequences we know.
Even if you're a bad pilot, you may still be alive because all holes in your cheese have not yet lined up yet for you Neither do I think those Comair pilots were bad pilots.... they ran into a "chain of events" that woke up and bit them..... with the awful consequences we know.
I never said they were bad pilots, they were following SOPs and forgot their basic instincts
in a prior post I said that this gives me pause, but as you notice my standards for a good pilot are low
I agree with you...for this accident I Blame the SOP for not having a Checklist item RWY HDG CORRECT and CLEAR...and I blame Comair for forcing pilots to do extraneous task that could best be completed rampside... I've a copy of United Airlines 777 SOP and it is LOOOOOOONG but 95% of the labor is before it leaves the ramp.And I TRULY, TRULY HOPE that the FO Recovers and that God remains with him throughout this ordeal
Rule Books Are Paper They Will Not Cushion A Sudden Meeting Of Metal And Stone E.K.G [to you JonDC9]
rhov
Last edited by rhovsquared; 12th Sep 2006 at 21:04. Reason: grammar/clarity :}