Ryanair loses legal bid to identify website critics
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Ryanair loses legal bid to identify website critics
13:04 Wednesday July 12th 2006
Ryanair has lost its High Court bid to identify people who posted certain comments the company claims were intimidating on a Ryanair pilots' website.
The action was taken against pilot union IALPA official Neil Johnston.
Ryanair claimed the comments on the website included threats designed to victimise, isolate and intimidate so as to ensure pilots from outside Dublin would not become available to fly a newly introduced fleet of planes from the company's base in the city.
It claimed Mr Johnston had a duty to name the persons identified by the codenames "I hate Ryanair" and "Can't fly won't fly".
Mr Justice Thomas Smyth rejected this, however, and said Mr Johnston's refusal was not an offence, adding that this action was part of an ongoing conflict over union recognition in Ryanair and the company's determination to resist this.
Ryanair has lost its High Court bid to identify people who posted certain comments the company claims were intimidating on a Ryanair pilots' website.
The action was taken against pilot union IALPA official Neil Johnston.
Ryanair claimed the comments on the website included threats designed to victimise, isolate and intimidate so as to ensure pilots from outside Dublin would not become available to fly a newly introduced fleet of planes from the company's base in the city.
It claimed Mr Johnston had a duty to name the persons identified by the codenames "I hate Ryanair" and "Can't fly won't fly".
Mr Justice Thomas Smyth rejected this, however, and said Mr Johnston's refusal was not an offence, adding that this action was part of an ongoing conflict over union recognition in Ryanair and the company's determination to resist this.
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Ryanair Lose another Court Case
Once again the integrity of the those dwellling inside the White House has been questioned by a High Court Judge.
From RTE:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0712/ryanair.html
High Court dismisses Ryanair application
12 July 2006 13:42
The High Court has dismissed an application by Ryanair seeking disclosure of the identities of pilots using a website set up by the Ryanair European Pilots' Association.
Ryanair had contended that some of their pilots had been intimidated by postings by anonymous individuals using code names including 'IHATERYANAIR' and 'CANTFLYWONTFLY'.
However, Mr Justice Tom Smith refused to allow the identities to be revealed.
He said that there was no evidence of bullying by the defendants to the action. He added that the only evidence of bullying was by the airline itself.
If you accept that it will take time to eat an elephant bite by bite, this was a pretty big chunk. Loss of the Labour Court Case will see the Camel on the BBQ.
From RTE:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0712/ryanair.html
High Court dismisses Ryanair application
12 July 2006 13:42
The High Court has dismissed an application by Ryanair seeking disclosure of the identities of pilots using a website set up by the Ryanair European Pilots' Association.
Ryanair had contended that some of their pilots had been intimidated by postings by anonymous individuals using code names including 'IHATERYANAIR' and 'CANTFLYWONTFLY'.
However, Mr Justice Tom Smith refused to allow the identities to be revealed.
He said that there was no evidence of bullying by the defendants to the action. He added that the only evidence of bullying was by the airline itself.
If you accept that it will take time to eat an elephant bite by bite, this was a pretty big chunk. Loss of the Labour Court Case will see the Camel on the BBQ.
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How sweet.
IALPA have not yet lost a court case against Ryanair. Ryanair have now wasted millions of Euro in legal fees. The judges have accused them of what they would accuse others of almost every time.
When oh when, will the Penny drop that talking to the pilots in the first place would have saved all this trouble. Pity.
Next stop the Labout Court!
IALPA have not yet lost a court case against Ryanair. Ryanair have now wasted millions of Euro in legal fees. The judges have accused them of what they would accuse others of almost every time.
When oh when, will the Penny drop that talking to the pilots in the first place would have saved all this trouble. Pity.
Next stop the Labout Court!
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Judges opinion of B738 conversion course terms
In relation to the condition that Ryanair insisted each pilot would have to repay the €15,000 conversion course cost if Ryanair was forced to recognise unions Mr Justice Smith remarked that such a stipulation .............
Presented a Hobsons choice
Onerous
Irrational
Unjust
Bearing all the hallmarks of oppression
Maybe the war on terror isn't over yet.
Presented a Hobsons choice
Onerous
Irrational
Unjust
Bearing all the hallmarks of oppression
Maybe the war on terror isn't over yet.
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Oh, it gets better, this is what the judge said about some familiar friends of ours:
on some of Eddie Wilson's evidence: "baseless and false"
and on some of Warwick Brady's: “I find this to be false evidence”
and on Jack Bagnall: “supercilious attitude” in the witness box
and of course David O'Brien: his "professed delicacy of feeling" was found to be "less than sincere"
on some of Eddie Wilson's evidence: "baseless and false"
and on some of Warwick Brady's: “I find this to be false evidence”
and on Jack Bagnall: “supercilious attitude” in the witness box
and of course David O'Brien: his "professed delicacy of feeling" was found to be "less than sincere"
Last edited by Camel Killer; 12th Jul 2006 at 21:34.
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Ryanair will continue to defend its constitutional right to deal directly with its employees without the interference of trade unions
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There is one way to verify the wishes of the employees...and it goes back about a hundred years.
Hold a free, uninterfered with sign-up session. Those who want a union will sign up and those who would rather prefer to deal directly with the company will not and the majority wins. Ahh, democracy.. Beats listening to propaganda and lawyers. But I imagine that is not part of Ryanair's business plan.
Hold a free, uninterfered with sign-up session. Those who want a union will sign up and those who would rather prefer to deal directly with the company will not and the majority wins. Ahh, democracy.. Beats listening to propaganda and lawyers. But I imagine that is not part of Ryanair's business plan.
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Simply compare and contrast folks - the High Court judgement says all that needs to be said
Ryanair, today (Wednesday, 12th July 2006) expressed its disappointment with the outcome of the action it had taken against the REPA website, which published a number of threats including criminal activities against Ryanair employees, some of them specifically identified, who did not participate in a trade union campaign in Dublin.
Ryanair took this case in order to protect our employees and to identify the names of just three individuals who had made anonymous postings on the REPA website advocating threats (including the slashing of car tyres) against specific Ryanair employees who had accepted positions here in Dublin, which was contrary to the campaign being waged by the pilot trade union.
Had Ryanair not taken action to identify and prevent the publication of these threats, Ryanair may have been accused of allowing its employees to be bullied or intimidated by these pilot trade union activists. This decision shows the difficulties which employers face when dealing with anonymous trade union websites which are used by their members to publish threats and/or advocate criminal activities against specific individuals or employees who do not wish to participate in their trade union campaigns. This is regrettable.
Ryanair will continue to defend its constitutional right to deal directly with its employees without the interference of trade unions and will continue to fight for the right of the vast majority of our employees who wish to continue to deal directly with the company – to be allowed to do so - without being bullied or intimidated by pilot trade unions or their anonymous websites.
Did anyone ever hear such
in their lives !!!!! Leo will be on later echoing this bull !
From RTE website: http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0712/ryanair.html
Originally Posted by EI-RB
RYANAIR DISAPPOINTED AT HIGH COURT JUDGEMENT IN THE REPA CASE
Ryanair, today (Wednesday, 12th July 2006) expressed its disappointment with the outcome of the action it had taken against the REPA website, which published a number of threats including criminal activities against Ryanair employees, some of them specifically identified, who did not participate in a trade union campaign in Dublin.
Ryanair took this case in order to protect our employees and to identify the names of just three individuals who had made anonymous postings on the REPA website advocating threats (including the slashing of car tyres) against specific Ryanair employees who had accepted positions here in Dublin, which was contrary to the campaign being waged by the pilot trade union.
Had Ryanair not taken action to identify and prevent the publication of these threats, Ryanair may have been accused of allowing its employees to be bullied or intimidated by these pilot trade union activists. This decision shows the difficulties which employers face when dealing with anonymous trade union websites which are used by their members to publish threats and/or advocate criminal activities against specific individuals or employees who do not wish to participate in their trade union campaigns. This is regrettable.
Ryanair will continue to defend its constitutional right to deal directly with its employees without the interference of trade unions and will continue to fight for the right of the vast majority of our employees who wish to continue to deal directly with the company – to be allowed to do so - without being bullied or intimidated by pilot trade unions or their anonymous websites.
Did anyone ever hear such
in their lives !!!!! Leo will be on later echoing this bull !From RTE website: http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0712/ryanair.html
The High Court has dismissed an application by Ryanair seeking disclosure of the identities of pilots using a website set up by the Ryanair European Pilots' Association.
Ryanair has contended that some of their pilots had been intimidated by postings by anonymous individuals using codenames.
However, Mr Justice Tom Smyth refused to allow the identities to be revealed.
He described the evidence of some Ryanair management witnesses as 'baseless' and 'false'.
In 2004, Ryanair told pilots they would have to pay re-training costs of €15,000 if the airline were forced to negotiate with unions during the following five years.
Shortly afterwards, the REPA set up a website to allow pilots to communicate anonymously, using codenames including 'ihateryanair' and 'cantfly-wontfly'.
Ryanair claimed the website was being used to intimidate pilots not to sign up to the retraining terms and called in the gardaí to investigate.
They went to the High Court to force disclosure of the real identities of pilots using the website.
In dismissing the Ryanair application, Mr Justice Tom Smyth described the original terms for retraining including the €15,000 bond as irrational and unjust, saying these 'most onerous' conditions bore all the hallmarks of oppression.
He pointed out that pilots called by Ryanair to give evidence of intimidation had not given any such evidence. He said the only evidence of intimidation related to the conduct of the airline.
He found there was no conspiracy by the pilots, who had engaged in nothing unlawful, and said Ryanair had suffered no actionable wrong.
The Irish Airline Pilots' Association welcomed the ruling as a vindication, and called on the board of Ryanair to investigate the conduct of management.
Ryanair has contended that some of their pilots had been intimidated by postings by anonymous individuals using codenames.
However, Mr Justice Tom Smyth refused to allow the identities to be revealed.
He described the evidence of some Ryanair management witnesses as 'baseless' and 'false'.
In 2004, Ryanair told pilots they would have to pay re-training costs of €15,000 if the airline were forced to negotiate with unions during the following five years.
Shortly afterwards, the REPA set up a website to allow pilots to communicate anonymously, using codenames including 'ihateryanair' and 'cantfly-wontfly'.
Ryanair claimed the website was being used to intimidate pilots not to sign up to the retraining terms and called in the gardaí to investigate.
They went to the High Court to force disclosure of the real identities of pilots using the website.
In dismissing the Ryanair application, Mr Justice Tom Smyth described the original terms for retraining including the €15,000 bond as irrational and unjust, saying these 'most onerous' conditions bore all the hallmarks of oppression.
He pointed out that pilots called by Ryanair to give evidence of intimidation had not given any such evidence. He said the only evidence of intimidation related to the conduct of the airline.
He found there was no conspiracy by the pilots, who had engaged in nothing unlawful, and said Ryanair had suffered no actionable wrong.
The Irish Airline Pilots' Association welcomed the ruling as a vindication, and called on the board of Ryanair to investigate the conduct of management.
Last edited by Camel Killer; 12th Jul 2006 at 21:38.
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Well done to the IALPA/BALPA/REPA team. And well done to Justice Smyth for giving FR an absolute bollocking.
Sets an important precedent in Ireland for free speech via internet forums.
Just think if FR had won this action, where the hell would it end?
FR really should consider negotiation as opposed to confrontation in the Four Courts every five minutes.
Sets an important precedent in Ireland for free speech via internet forums.
Just think if FR had won this action, where the hell would it end?
FR really should consider negotiation as opposed to confrontation in the Four Courts every five minutes.
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ryanair/asda and any other large company
replying to fmgc
it wouild seem that any large company will do what it can to screw it employees into the ground , not just airlines retailers r as bad if not worse asda/walmart being one of the worst offenders
check out the gmb union website or do a google search its surprising what can be dug up/obviously some stuff you have to take with a pinch of salt but as with any large corporation its all about the figures on the bottom of the paper and keeping the sharehjolders happy and the top dogs wallets fat!
it wouild seem that any large company will do what it can to screw it employees into the ground , not just airlines retailers r as bad if not worse asda/walmart being one of the worst offenders
check out the gmb union website or do a google search its surprising what can be dug up/obviously some stuff you have to take with a pinch of salt but as with any large corporation its all about the figures on the bottom of the paper and keeping the sharehjolders happy and the top dogs wallets fat!
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Even Leo will be hard pressed to spin his way out of this mess of Ryanairs own making. He might even reassess his opinion that REPA is toothless and irrelevant. Just goes to show Leo, even if you repeat a lie a thousand times, it doesn't necessarily become truth. Those of us within the industry, and particularly within Ryanair, already knew what a bunch of lying and bullying pikeys ran the place, maybe now the general public will realise too.
This is from today's Irish Times:
High Court rejects Ryanair bullying claim
A High Court judge has rejected claims by Ryanair that its pilots or their unions had engaged in bullying, intimidation or isolation of other pilots over conditions imposed by Ryanair relating to training on new aircraft.
The only evidence of bullying was by Ryanair itself, Mr Justice Thomas Smyth stated yesterday. He described as "most onerous and bordering on oppression" a condition requiring pilots to pay Ryanair €15,000 for training on new aircraft in 2004. The €15,000 was payable by pilots if they left the company within five years or if Ryanair was required to engage in collective bargaining within the same period.
In a strongly worded reserved judgment, the judge dismissed a bid by the private airline for orders aimed at identifying pilots who posted messages under codenames, such as "ihateryanair" and "cantfly, wontfly" on a pilots' website. Ryanair had claimed the messages showed evidence of wrongful activity against it and its employees.
The judge also made a finding of false evidence in relation to two members of Ryanair management who had given evidence at the hearing. He held that, when Ryanair set up an investigation to find out who was behind the website, the real purpose of that investigation was to "break the resolve" of pilots to seek better terms and conditions. There was no warrant for Ryanair's action in seeking assistance from gardaí on the matter, he added.
He rejected as "baseless and false" the evidence of Ryanair director of personnel Eddie Wilson in relation to the setting up the investigation. The judge also said there was no conspiracy in relation to the setting up of the website and it was not engaged in anything unlawful. There was "no actionable
wrong", he held, and dismissed Ryanair's application.
The issue of who will pay the ubstantial costs of the hearing will be decided later. Ryanair had sought a number of orders against Neil Johnston, an official with the trade union Impact, the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (Ialpa) and its British counterpart, Balpa.
The airline contended the defendants had a duty to identify persons identified by codenames on the Ryanair European Pilots' Association (Repa) website. It claimed the website was established and controlled by Ialpa and Balpa, which was denied by both associations. Ryanair also sought an order requiring the defendants to disclose all information within their knowledge or procurement relating to threats, intimidation and harassment of Ryanair pilots.
The proceedings arose from concerns by pilots about the conditions set by Ryanair in 2004 relating to flying new 737-800 aircraft. The judge said he was satisfied it was the changes in conditions that gave rise to the industrial unrest in 2004. He said pilots were offered training to convert to flying 737-800 aircraft.
Under the terms, they had to fund the €15,000 cost of training themselves. Payment of this would be deferred if they stayed with the firm for five years. However, it would be due immediately if pilots left the company or if Ryanair was compelled to engage in collective bargaining with the pilots' association or a trade union within five years.
"This was a most onerous condition and bears all the hallmarks of oppression," the judge said.
Mr Justice Smyth said he found Capt John Gale, one of a number of pilots subpoenaed by Ryanair to give evidence and who had denied claims of intimidation by pilots, to be a truthful witness.
The judge said he found that Capt Gale was in no way cold-shouldered by pilots and had received no intimidation. The judge said he was satisfied that whoever put about the rumour that Capt Gale was accusing another senior pilot, Capt John Goss, of disloyalty to Ryanair had done so without any basis whatsoever.
The judge also said he considered the evidence of Warwick Brady (who gave evidence for
Ryanair and who was with management based at Stansted airport in 2004) in relation to an alleged warning to Capt Gale by Capt Goss to be false evidence.
Referring to Capt Andrew Walters, another pilot subpoenaed by Ryanair and who denied being intimidated by any pilot in relation to taking up a post in Dublin, the judge said he was satisfied Capt Walters had had no conversation on the telephone with Capt Goss, as alleged by Ryanair.
He found Capt Walters to be truthful and reliable, and noted that the pilot had told the court he had never felt intimidated, isolated or threatened in relation to taking up the Dublin post.
This is from today's Irish Times:
High Court rejects Ryanair bullying claim
A High Court judge has rejected claims by Ryanair that its pilots or their unions had engaged in bullying, intimidation or isolation of other pilots over conditions imposed by Ryanair relating to training on new aircraft.
The only evidence of bullying was by Ryanair itself, Mr Justice Thomas Smyth stated yesterday. He described as "most onerous and bordering on oppression" a condition requiring pilots to pay Ryanair €15,000 for training on new aircraft in 2004. The €15,000 was payable by pilots if they left the company within five years or if Ryanair was required to engage in collective bargaining within the same period.
In a strongly worded reserved judgment, the judge dismissed a bid by the private airline for orders aimed at identifying pilots who posted messages under codenames, such as "ihateryanair" and "cantfly, wontfly" on a pilots' website. Ryanair had claimed the messages showed evidence of wrongful activity against it and its employees.
The judge also made a finding of false evidence in relation to two members of Ryanair management who had given evidence at the hearing. He held that, when Ryanair set up an investigation to find out who was behind the website, the real purpose of that investigation was to "break the resolve" of pilots to seek better terms and conditions. There was no warrant for Ryanair's action in seeking assistance from gardaí on the matter, he added.
He rejected as "baseless and false" the evidence of Ryanair director of personnel Eddie Wilson in relation to the setting up the investigation. The judge also said there was no conspiracy in relation to the setting up of the website and it was not engaged in anything unlawful. There was "no actionable
wrong", he held, and dismissed Ryanair's application.
The issue of who will pay the ubstantial costs of the hearing will be decided later. Ryanair had sought a number of orders against Neil Johnston, an official with the trade union Impact, the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (Ialpa) and its British counterpart, Balpa.
The airline contended the defendants had a duty to identify persons identified by codenames on the Ryanair European Pilots' Association (Repa) website. It claimed the website was established and controlled by Ialpa and Balpa, which was denied by both associations. Ryanair also sought an order requiring the defendants to disclose all information within their knowledge or procurement relating to threats, intimidation and harassment of Ryanair pilots.
The proceedings arose from concerns by pilots about the conditions set by Ryanair in 2004 relating to flying new 737-800 aircraft. The judge said he was satisfied it was the changes in conditions that gave rise to the industrial unrest in 2004. He said pilots were offered training to convert to flying 737-800 aircraft.
Under the terms, they had to fund the €15,000 cost of training themselves. Payment of this would be deferred if they stayed with the firm for five years. However, it would be due immediately if pilots left the company or if Ryanair was compelled to engage in collective bargaining with the pilots' association or a trade union within five years.
"This was a most onerous condition and bears all the hallmarks of oppression," the judge said.
Mr Justice Smyth said he found Capt John Gale, one of a number of pilots subpoenaed by Ryanair to give evidence and who had denied claims of intimidation by pilots, to be a truthful witness.
The judge said he found that Capt Gale was in no way cold-shouldered by pilots and had received no intimidation. The judge said he was satisfied that whoever put about the rumour that Capt Gale was accusing another senior pilot, Capt John Goss, of disloyalty to Ryanair had done so without any basis whatsoever.
The judge also said he considered the evidence of Warwick Brady (who gave evidence for
Ryanair and who was with management based at Stansted airport in 2004) in relation to an alleged warning to Capt Gale by Capt Goss to be false evidence.
Referring to Capt Andrew Walters, another pilot subpoenaed by Ryanair and who denied being intimidated by any pilot in relation to taking up a post in Dublin, the judge said he was satisfied Capt Walters had had no conversation on the telephone with Capt Goss, as alleged by Ryanair.
He found Capt Walters to be truthful and reliable, and noted that the pilot had told the court he had never felt intimidated, isolated or threatened in relation to taking up the Dublin post.
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I wonder if the lawyers get supplied with free tea bags and water? What a waste of money. Low cost airline, high cost legal bills! Stop wasting the share holders money! Whats the point in everyone doing their best to save a few kgs in fuel when its all wasted on legal bills!!
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Too right morningglory.
Another side effect of this is that Mr. Warwick Brady and Mr.Eddie Wilson future's as reliable witnesses in the next 357 legal disputes Ryanair probably have lined up may be in doubt after this.
Whereas once again Capt.Goss has been vindicated. That's twice now isn't it?
Another side effect of this is that Mr. Warwick Brady and Mr.Eddie Wilson future's as reliable witnesses in the next 357 legal disputes Ryanair probably have lined up may be in doubt after this.
Whereas once again Capt.Goss has been vindicated. That's twice now isn't it?
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Perjured
Any chance that that Police will instigate or be instructed to instigate a perjury investigation into this alleged false evidence by Eddie Wilson and Warick Brady. Its only right that these people sould earn that they are not above the Law.
Well done.
Well done.
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Is anyone keeping a record of the number of court cases won and lost by Ryanair?
The only winners as far as the company are concerned are the Legal team that must be laughing all the way to the bank.
How much credibility does an individual have to loose before he is recognised as a liability to the company?
The only winners as far as the company are concerned are the Legal team that must be laughing all the way to the bank.
How much credibility does an individual have to loose before he is recognised as a liability to the company?