Age 60 Hearing For Ex-Air Canada Pilot
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Age 60 Hearing For Ex-Air Canada Pilot
The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has scheduled a hearing into a complaint by a former Air Canada First Officer who was forced-retired as a result of the provisions of the collective agreement in force between Air Canada and its pilot union. That hearing will take place in January.
The Canadian government over 20 years ago abandoned maximum age limitations on airline pilot licensing (apparently on Constitutional grounds--contrary to the age discrimination provisions) but our current Human Rights Act exempts from the age discrimination prohibition situations "when the individual has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in positions similar to the position of the individual."
The question thus becomes one of, what is the "normal" age of retirement for an airline pilot? Who is the "comparator group." In th case of Air Canada, should it include the domestic competition, or only the international carriers?
A group of us have applied to intervene in the hearing, in support of the Complainant, and we have set up a web site as a central resource to provide information in regard to the Age 60 issue. www.flypast60.com
I would be interested in receiving comments here from others who may face the same situation, particularly given the ICAO age restriction changes that are to take effect on November 23rd.
One question of interest to us, is what effect with the ICAO changes have on carriers flying into the U.S.A. if their government will no longer be able to prevent over-60 aged pilots-in-command from operating into and out of their airspace.
Warmest regards from Canada.
The Canadian government over 20 years ago abandoned maximum age limitations on airline pilot licensing (apparently on Constitutional grounds--contrary to the age discrimination provisions) but our current Human Rights Act exempts from the age discrimination prohibition situations "when the individual has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in positions similar to the position of the individual."
The question thus becomes one of, what is the "normal" age of retirement for an airline pilot? Who is the "comparator group." In th case of Air Canada, should it include the domestic competition, or only the international carriers?
A group of us have applied to intervene in the hearing, in support of the Complainant, and we have set up a web site as a central resource to provide information in regard to the Age 60 issue. www.flypast60.com
I would be interested in receiving comments here from others who may face the same situation, particularly given the ICAO age restriction changes that are to take effect on November 23rd.
One question of interest to us, is what effect with the ICAO changes have on carriers flying into the U.S.A. if their government will no longer be able to prevent over-60 aged pilots-in-command from operating into and out of their airspace.
Warmest regards from Canada.
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Just want to let you know in case you were unaware. WestJet has just recently recinded their age 60 rule and reinstated 2 Capts. back to the line.
Good luck in your attempt to abolish this rule at AC.
Good luck in your attempt to abolish this rule at AC.
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Many thanks.
Were they reinstated after already having been terminated?
Was the reinstatement based on a legal process, such as a complaint similar to the one that we have before the Human Rights Commission?
My understanding is that WestJet pilots are not unionized, so it couldn't have been part of a grievance. Is there some other mechanism for the pilots themselves having there concerns raised with management--such as a pilot's committee?
Was the reinstatement based on a legal process, such as a complaint similar to the one that we have before the Human Rights Commission?
My understanding is that WestJet pilots are not unionized, so it couldn't have been part of a grievance. Is there some other mechanism for the pilots themselves having there concerns raised with management--such as a pilot's committee?
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Ray767
WestJet policy was that you could continue to fly but right seat only. One Capt accepted that option , one quit.
No legal complaints were filed. Our pilot group was not happy with the situation and let that be known. Management decided that the right thing to do was to allow them to hold their Capt's position. They are built special "Canada Only" blocks and although this may prove to be troublesome in the future as more pilots reach 60 , we are hoping that challenges to this outdated ridiculous rule by groups such as yours and those currently challenging it in the US will prevail.
WestJet policy was that you could continue to fly but right seat only. One Capt accepted that option , one quit.
No legal complaints were filed. Our pilot group was not happy with the situation and let that be known. Management decided that the right thing to do was to allow them to hold their Capt's position. They are built special "Canada Only" blocks and although this may prove to be troublesome in the future as more pilots reach 60 , we are hoping that challenges to this outdated ridiculous rule by groups such as yours and those currently challenging it in the US will prevail.
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Small problem with your union vote. It violates the Canadian Charter of Rights.
Aside from that it is interesting that the majority of AC pilots voted against it. Something like 90% of WestJet pilots were for it. I wonder why?
As for what one signs on for , I presume you will be happy with your pay and terms of employment when you were hired to remain the same until you retire.
We took the view at WestJet that not many guys would want to fly past 60 but we felt that those that did should be allowed to. Sure it slows the upgrades a little but who knows , by the time you turn 60 maybe you will want to or heaven forbid , have to fly past 60. It's nice to have the choice rather than to have a decision like that made for you.
Aside from that it is interesting that the majority of AC pilots voted against it. Something like 90% of WestJet pilots were for it. I wonder why?
As for what one signs on for , I presume you will be happy with your pay and terms of employment when you were hired to remain the same until you retire.
We took the view at WestJet that not many guys would want to fly past 60 but we felt that those that did should be allowed to. Sure it slows the upgrades a little but who knows , by the time you turn 60 maybe you will want to or heaven forbid , have to fly past 60. It's nice to have the choice rather than to have a decision like that made for you.
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As you might imagine, I am not winning any popularity contests within my own pilot group. The poll that we conducted gave us results of about 4 to 1 against changing the Age 60 limit.
Almost everyone who signed on knew what to expect when they accepted the job. But that doesn't change the fact that a company and its pilot union can't "contract out" of the human rights legislation.
The Complainant, in our case, never made it to Captain status, primarily because he was denied a job in 1974 on the basis of his age (he has a letter from the VP expressly stating that he would have been hired, but for his age). When he was eventually hired, twelve years later, after the passage of the Human Rights legislation prohibiting discrimination on the basis of age, he had to comtemplate his impending forced retirement, at the same time that pilots of other Canadian airlines of his age were expecting to continue working.
The major problem we are having internally is not the substance of the dispute, but the emotion of the dispute.
Almost everyone who signed on knew what to expect when they accepted the job. But that doesn't change the fact that a company and its pilot union can't "contract out" of the human rights legislation.
The Complainant, in our case, never made it to Captain status, primarily because he was denied a job in 1974 on the basis of his age (he has a letter from the VP expressly stating that he would have been hired, but for his age). When he was eventually hired, twelve years later, after the passage of the Human Rights legislation prohibiting discrimination on the basis of age, he had to comtemplate his impending forced retirement, at the same time that pilots of other Canadian airlines of his age were expecting to continue working.
The major problem we are having internally is not the substance of the dispute, but the emotion of the dispute.
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Raymond767
My post#5 was in response to someone who must have thought better of their post and deleted it.
It still puzzles me that the pilot group at AC is against flying past age 60. I'm quite confident that this antiquated law will be repealed long before it affects me but I was quite pleased to see the pilot group at WestJet fight to allow their "age enhanced" collegues to continue to fly.
What are the 75% who voted this down afraid of?
My post#5 was in response to someone who must have thought better of their post and deleted it.
It still puzzles me that the pilot group at AC is against flying past age 60. I'm quite confident that this antiquated law will be repealed long before it affects me but I was quite pleased to see the pilot group at WestJet fight to allow their "age enhanced" collegues to continue to fly.
What are the 75% who voted this down afraid of?
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What are the 75% who voted this down afraid of?
There are two types of pilots: those who will get more captain time if the age is extended, and those who will get more f/o time. It's all whose ox is being gored.
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Correct, I am a Captain. Although the money is important this issue is about more than that. The way I feel now , if the rules didn't change , I would probably move into the right seat to continue to fly. Some argue that ones lifespan is reduced by flying past 60. Others would argue that retirement puts some in their graves early.
I see where your going and it is a valid concern. I might have taken the same view when I was 25. Slower upgrades suck but I maintain that the number of Capt's actually taking advantage of a 60+ rule would not seriously impede ones promotion and that the small amount of extra time spent in the right seat would be more than worth the option to fly to 60-65 when that time comes , as it will to us all someday. A little pain now for a possible large gain later.
Still , in the AC example above , it is apparent that many Capt's voted this down and I think the situation is the same at ALPA. The ALPA situation is particularly perplexing with pensions being trashed in the US.
Correct, I am a Captain. Although the money is important this issue is about more than that. The way I feel now , if the rules didn't change , I would probably move into the right seat to continue to fly. Some argue that ones lifespan is reduced by flying past 60. Others would argue that retirement puts some in their graves early.
I see where your going and it is a valid concern. I might have taken the same view when I was 25. Slower upgrades suck but I maintain that the number of Capt's actually taking advantage of a 60+ rule would not seriously impede ones promotion and that the small amount of extra time spent in the right seat would be more than worth the option to fly to 60-65 when that time comes , as it will to us all someday. A little pain now for a possible large gain later.
Still , in the AC example above , it is apparent that many Capt's voted this down and I think the situation is the same at ALPA. The ALPA situation is particularly perplexing with pensions being trashed in the US.
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Hey , that's great. Enjoy your well deserved retirement.
I just think it's a little presumptuous of you to think anyone who would'nt want to do the same is crazy.
That's what this is all about. A matter of choice.
Hey , that's great. Enjoy your well deserved retirement.
I just think it's a little presumptuous of you to think anyone who would'nt want to do the same is crazy.
That's what this is all about. A matter of choice.
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I would say the fear held by most AC pilots, is that if the rule changes, very soon they will be forced to fly beyond 60, by virtue of the fact that the airline will structure the pay grades accordingly. Take for example the situation faced in BA. Origionally BA pilots had to retire at 55 though the licencing authority allowed them to fly until 60. Now with a big hole in the pension fund, they are being forced (by the Company) to fly until 60.
Very often what starts out as an option quickly becomes compulsory.
Just my 5 cents worth!
Very often what starts out as an option quickly becomes compulsory.
Just my 5 cents worth!
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My bet is it will not be too long before BA require their pilots to fly to 65 for their pensions and eventually until 68y.
My teenagers have been told to expect 68 by their career advisors....Could affect your career choice if your skills and medical health are tested every six months.
My teenagers have been told to expect 68 by their career advisors....Could affect your career choice if your skills and medical health are tested every six months.
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There are many pilots who love flying as a lifelong enjoyable hobby. It devasted me when I reached 60 - one day in command of a 737 in Europe and a few hours after midnight too bloody old. I used to laugh decades ago when I saw the quaint sight of an airline pilot on his last flight at 60 being pushed away from his aeroplane in a wheel chair by cheering and of course well meaning colleagues. Not now I don't laugh, because I think it is sad - and I suspect the wheel chair occupant secretly felt a bit glum deep down.
For those on huge superannuation payouts their financial future till death do us part, was secure. To those of us who were never in the big money making airlines we still need to eat. A long time ago, some research of other concluded that forced age 60 retirement of airline pilots contributed to early deaths than the norm for other occupations. I would not be surprised at that.
Of course pilots well under the age of 60 would like to see the old codgers of 60 thrown out to get the seniority system a chance. I was probably one of them, although I don't recall specifics. It is well nigh impossible for a younger person to conceive that an over 60 pilot would really love his job so much he would want to continue to fly aeroplanes and enjoy the view from 41,000 ft.
There is no doubt in my mind (and I am well over 70 and a reasonably competent flying and simulator instructor thanks to a kind gesture by various operators), that providing one passes the usual medicals and one demonstrates the normal competency in regular simulator proficiency tests expected of an experienced airline pilot, the age 60 rule means SFA as a cut-off age for a captain or first officer.
For those on huge superannuation payouts their financial future till death do us part, was secure. To those of us who were never in the big money making airlines we still need to eat. A long time ago, some research of other concluded that forced age 60 retirement of airline pilots contributed to early deaths than the norm for other occupations. I would not be surprised at that.
Of course pilots well under the age of 60 would like to see the old codgers of 60 thrown out to get the seniority system a chance. I was probably one of them, although I don't recall specifics. It is well nigh impossible for a younger person to conceive that an over 60 pilot would really love his job so much he would want to continue to fly aeroplanes and enjoy the view from 41,000 ft.
There is no doubt in my mind (and I am well over 70 and a reasonably competent flying and simulator instructor thanks to a kind gesture by various operators), that providing one passes the usual medicals and one demonstrates the normal competency in regular simulator proficiency tests expected of an experienced airline pilot, the age 60 rule means SFA as a cut-off age for a captain or first officer.
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Age 40
I wanted them to change the retirement age to 40 ( I am 40 ) 
But they didn't so I will stay until 50 or so... I pray that I will not be, in effect, "forced to fly to 65"...
The best thing about loosing our pensions in the states is no more penalty for early retirement! (meant in jest)
How come the majority of people I meet that are in favour of changing the retirement age are 57-59 years old???
Where are the 30 and 40 year olds that are pushing for an extension of the mandatory retirement age?
But they didn't so I will stay until 50 or so... I pray that I will not be, in effect, "forced to fly to 65"...
The best thing about loosing our pensions in the states is no more penalty for early retirement! (meant in jest)
How come the majority of people I meet that are in favour of changing the retirement age are 57-59 years old???
Where are the 30 and 40 year olds that are pushing for an extension of the mandatory retirement age?
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Why would you want to continue when every year's extension beyond 55 might be 2 years off your life span?
http://www.seeya-downtheroad.com/Inf...tireYoung.html
(US pilots excluded due to your pension situation).
http://www.seeya-downtheroad.com/Inf...tireYoung.html
(US pilots excluded due to your pension situation).
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It is foolish to compare WJ and AC's pilot's motivation for changing retirement age (ie: pension vs no pension) etc. AC is a large international airline and changing the rules would be brutal to deal with. "Canada only" pairings on the A340 or 777??? Imagine logistics of international flights with someone over 60 at the wheel "unable direct XXX due age 60 rule" When all of Europe and the rest of the world has a common age that's a different story. On machines where "Canada only" blocks are possible senority gets thrown out the window. I'm for people working longer so here's a solution - at age 60 retire or become RP's or EMJ f/o's in the position group payscale. EMJ "Canada only" blocks wouldn't be too bad for the company to handle and now ACPA might be nicer to it's young!
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Nov 23 sounds familiar as the date ICAO is allowing retirement up to 65, however each ICAO member can set it's own retirement limit. There are many ICAO countries not approving pilots up to 65 (currently Canada), and thus the possible problem. For example, as I understand it, a flight from A to B may not be able to overfly C with crew over that country's retirement age. Sounds tricky for crew sched, and throws senority based bidding out the window. Can't fly to/over US of A, countries B, C, and D after age 60, countries E, F, G after 62...
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The new ICAO age rule that comes into effect on Nov 23rd 2006,allows foreign crews up to age 65 [one per cockpit] to fly through,land and take off at ALL ICAO member states.If those states should have an age restriction, it would apply to local/domestic pilots only,not foreign crew.eg Part 128 carriers into the US.