ATC calls police to meet A/C because FO 'sounded drunk'
Dog Tired
Originally Posted by JustAnothrWindScreen
This business has gone completely insane. I retire in a matter of months, and although it has been a great ride, the changing environment makes me happy to get away from this insanity.
Five months to go, for me. Good luck, the rest of you.
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Why is everyone trying to get in the act? What are they trying to prove? They must be attention seekers or the type who believe that they are in a better position to judge than the experts. Who was the expert in this case who 'identified' a pilot as being under influence, and was miles away from him and NO POSITION WHATSOEVER to make a judgment of such significance he caused a pilot to be breath tested after he landed.
It is absurd in the extreme and the ATC person(s) guilty of this are nothing more than mischief maker(s). They, and everyone else for that matter, should understand the terrible consequences of their actions.
Where will this series of 'reporting' get us?
It is absurd in the extreme and the ATC person(s) guilty of this are nothing more than mischief maker(s). They, and everyone else for that matter, should understand the terrible consequences of their actions.
Where will this series of 'reporting' get us?
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Daring to stick my neck in ... ATC can, do and should intervene if a pilot sounds 'strange'...we had an incident here a few years ago when ATC saved the life of a hypoxic pilot (just in time). What they can't do is presume the reason for the 'strangeness'. The story if true as posted sounds very unjust and obviously not the complete story. That being said drugs, alcohol and fatigue are serious issues. I read somewhere recently that about half of pilot fatalities in general aviation in the US have alcohol detected in their blood post-accident. What that means in terms of accident causation I do not know but scary statistics if true and hopefully not relevent to the professionals.
wrongthong - wrong numbers
"I read somewhere recently that about half of pilot fatalities in general aviation in the US have alcohol detected in their blood post-accident"
I'd like to know where you read that. I read the reports on a regular basis and rarely see any positive toxicology mentioned. The NTSB reports almost always list results in the final reports. Now as for out and out stupidity we see a lot of that.
20driver
I'd like to know where you read that. I read the reports on a regular basis and rarely see any positive toxicology mentioned. The NTSB reports almost always list results in the final reports. Now as for out and out stupidity we see a lot of that.
20driver
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Fokker28
America doesn't have a monopoly on such events.
Some police constables in Manchester breath-tested both pilots after a passenger complained about the landing and said the pilots must have been drinking.
UK pilots breathalysed after go arounds
Landmark
"But there's no legislation to say it has to (take place in private). Indeed, if a pilot placed a condition on giving a sample of breath requested by me - he's more likley than not going to be arrested for refusal."
IMHO that sort of attitude alienates members of the public and, unfortunately, diminishes respect for the police.
America doesn't have a monopoly on such events.
Some police constables in Manchester breath-tested both pilots after a passenger complained about the landing and said the pilots must have been drinking.
UK pilots breathalysed after go arounds
Landmark
"But there's no legislation to say it has to (take place in private). Indeed, if a pilot placed a condition on giving a sample of breath requested by me - he's more likley than not going to be arrested for refusal."
IMHO that sort of attitude alienates members of the public and, unfortunately, diminishes respect for the police.
Previous comments which suggest that similar pilot radio transmissions could be the result of fatigue, hit the nail on the head.
Many, but not all, Upper Mgmts. view crew rest with undisguised contempt, especially at the bargaining table.
Many airlines have no bargaining table. Imagine the potential fatigue for their flightcrews. A chat with former Connie Kalitta Learjet, Sun Country DC-10 and Evergreen DC-8 crews might prove to be interesting, among many others.
Many, but not all, Upper Mgmts. view crew rest with undisguised contempt, especially at the bargaining table.
Many airlines have no bargaining table. Imagine the potential fatigue for their flightcrews. A chat with former Connie Kalitta Learjet, Sun Country DC-10 and Evergreen DC-8 crews might prove to be interesting, among many others.
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20driver, here's the paper and its abstract: http://www.hf.faa.gov/docs/508/docs/cami/00_21.pdf.
The use of drugs and alcohol in aviation is closely monitored by the FAA Office of Aviation Medicine's (OAM’s) Civil Aeromedical Institute (CAMI) through the toxicological analysis of specimens from pilots who have died in aviation accidents. This information on the use of drugs in aviation is helpful to the FAA in developing programs to reduce the usage of dangerous drugs and identify potentially incapacitating medical conditions that may cause an accident. Data collected from this research can be used to evaluate the effectiveness of the FAA drug testing program. The toxicology reports prepared by the CAMI Forensic Toxicology Research Section are used by the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board to determine the cause of aviation accidents. Specimens (blood, urine, liver, kidney, vitreous fluid, and other bodily specimens) were collected by pathologists near the accident and placed in evidence containers provided by CAMI. These samples were refrigerated and shipped by overnight air. Upon receipt, the specimens were inventoried and accessioned for the analysis of drugs, alcohol, carbon monoxide, and cyanide. All data collected by the laboratory were entered into a computer database for future analysis. The database was searched using a Microsoft Access TM program developed by a local contractor. The database was sorted based on the class of drug, controlled dangerous substance schedules I and II, controlled dangerous substance schedules III-V, prescription drugs, over-the-counter drugs, and alcohol. The Toxicology and Accident Research Laboratory received specimens from 1683 pilots for postmortem toxicology analysis between 1994 to 1998. Controlled dangerous substances, CDS, (schedules I and II) were found in 89 of the pilots analyzed. Controlled dangerous substances (schedules III -V) were found in 49 of the pilots tested. Prescription drugs were found in 240 of the pilots analyzed. Over-the-counter drugs were found in 301 of the pilots analyzed. Alcohol at or above the legal limit of 0.04% was found in 124 pilots. The number of positive drug cases has doubled over the past 5 years. Over-the-counter medications are the most frequently found drugs in fatal aviation accidents and many of these drugs, or the medical conditions for which they are being used, could impair a pilot's ability to safely fly an aircraft. The increased number of positive cases found in this research is most likely the result of improved methods of analysis, rather than an increase in the use of drugs. The low incidence of CDS III-V drugs found in fatal aviation accidents may be a result of the difficulty in finding and identifying the new benzodiazepines commonly prescribed in this class
The use of drugs and alcohol in aviation is closely monitored by the FAA Office of Aviation Medicine's (OAM’s) Civil Aeromedical Institute (CAMI) through the toxicological analysis of specimens from pilots who have died in aviation accidents. This information on the use of drugs in aviation is helpful to the FAA in developing programs to reduce the usage of dangerous drugs and identify potentially incapacitating medical conditions that may cause an accident. Data collected from this research can be used to evaluate the effectiveness of the FAA drug testing program. The toxicology reports prepared by the CAMI Forensic Toxicology Research Section are used by the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board to determine the cause of aviation accidents. Specimens (blood, urine, liver, kidney, vitreous fluid, and other bodily specimens) were collected by pathologists near the accident and placed in evidence containers provided by CAMI. These samples were refrigerated and shipped by overnight air. Upon receipt, the specimens were inventoried and accessioned for the analysis of drugs, alcohol, carbon monoxide, and cyanide. All data collected by the laboratory were entered into a computer database for future analysis. The database was searched using a Microsoft Access TM program developed by a local contractor. The database was sorted based on the class of drug, controlled dangerous substance schedules I and II, controlled dangerous substance schedules III-V, prescription drugs, over-the-counter drugs, and alcohol. The Toxicology and Accident Research Laboratory received specimens from 1683 pilots for postmortem toxicology analysis between 1994 to 1998. Controlled dangerous substances, CDS, (schedules I and II) were found in 89 of the pilots analyzed. Controlled dangerous substances (schedules III -V) were found in 49 of the pilots tested. Prescription drugs were found in 240 of the pilots analyzed. Over-the-counter drugs were found in 301 of the pilots analyzed. Alcohol at or above the legal limit of 0.04% was found in 124 pilots. The number of positive drug cases has doubled over the past 5 years. Over-the-counter medications are the most frequently found drugs in fatal aviation accidents and many of these drugs, or the medical conditions for which they are being used, could impair a pilot's ability to safely fly an aircraft. The increased number of positive cases found in this research is most likely the result of improved methods of analysis, rather than an increase in the use of drugs. The low incidence of CDS III-V drugs found in fatal aviation accidents may be a result of the difficulty in finding and identifying the new benzodiazepines commonly prescribed in this class
Last edited by wrongthong; 4th Jun 2006 at 11:59.
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Why such indignant disbelief flight deck could possibly be under the influence?
Try to entertain it's a remote possibility, hyperthetically speaking of course...what are the real options if you suspect its been less than 12 hours since the person with you in the cockpit, left the bar?
Try to entertain it's a remote possibility, hyperthetically speaking of course...what are the real options if you suspect its been less than 12 hours since the person with you in the cockpit, left the bar?
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Same in Germany
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Fokker28
America doesn't have a monopoly on such events.
Some police constables in Manchester breath-tested both pilots after a passenger complained about the landing and said the pilots must have been drinking.
UK pilots breathalysed after go arounds
America doesn't have a monopoly on such events.
Some police constables in Manchester breath-tested both pilots after a passenger complained about the landing and said the pilots must have been drinking.
UK pilots breathalysed after go arounds
In both cases the Pilots were incapacitated by drugs or alcohol. So what shall i say? Of course every ATCO knows what he´s bringing up when calling the AvD to test a Pilot - but believe me, no ATCO will derivate his decision only upon the voice....
PPRuNe Person
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flight deck could possibly be under the influence?
If you are a flight attendant, witchiepoo, how would you like me to call you 'passenger cabin'?
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Surely the statistics cited for 1683 'pilot' fatalities over fours years of U.S. operations included every type of flying category, from ultralight to transport jet, with the largest numbers at the lowest end of the aircraft complexity scale. Likely the 7.5 percent of those unfortunate fatality persons who tested with significant alcohol inlcuded some number of non-pilots. There is a low-grade tradition in some rural places for the good-'ol'-boys to drink too much and then steal a semi-truck or bus or boat or aircraft to show off. Presumably the person who is peeled out of the wreck from the left front seat is likely to be designated as 'pilot', whether certificated or not.
My company employed a contract a&P of considerable skill and talent for several years. He was pleasant but moody, mediterranean origin, made miserable by a difficult young wife. Also fond of drink. One moonlit evening, he and another fellow followed a drinking session with a test flight of a 'borrowed' light single that caught some attention for irregular and low manoeuvering, then ended in collision with a stand of tall pines. Both occupants were severely injured. In the official reports he was listed as 'pilot', tho neither qualified nor licensed. He was not a fatality of record, but only by a hair.
Statistics are frequently MORE confusing than damn lies. In my experience, American ATP's are
a serious and sober lot, with very few wavering, and less of them every year.
My company employed a contract a&P of considerable skill and talent for several years. He was pleasant but moody, mediterranean origin, made miserable by a difficult young wife. Also fond of drink. One moonlit evening, he and another fellow followed a drinking session with a test flight of a 'borrowed' light single that caught some attention for irregular and low manoeuvering, then ended in collision with a stand of tall pines. Both occupants were severely injured. In the official reports he was listed as 'pilot', tho neither qualified nor licensed. He was not a fatality of record, but only by a hair.
Statistics are frequently MORE confusing than damn lies. In my experience, American ATP's are
a serious and sober lot, with very few wavering, and less of them every year.
Last edited by arcniz; 5th Jun 2006 at 01:52.
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Landmark
"But there's no legislation to say it has to (take place in private). Indeed, if a pilot placed a condition on giving a sample of breath requested by me - he's more likley than not going to be arrested for refusal."
IMHO that sort of attitude alienates members of the public and, unfortunately, diminishes respect for the police.[/QUOTE]
The police enforce legislation - not write it!
"But there's no legislation to say it has to (take place in private). Indeed, if a pilot placed a condition on giving a sample of breath requested by me - he's more likley than not going to be arrested for refusal."
IMHO that sort of attitude alienates members of the public and, unfortunately, diminishes respect for the police.[/QUOTE]
The police enforce legislation - not write it!
But the police do have latitude as to HOW to enforce the legislation at (as it were) the point of delivery. If simply by moving to a private place needless aggravation can be avoided, why not do it ?
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But if there is no legislation to do it in private then is there any legislation forcing you to do it in public? And we are not talking about scene of an accident on a roadside, we are talking about pre-departure, in front of those who place a lot of trust in the pilots. I think this is where having a brain and allowing it to slip into gear every so often could be beneficial. What ever happened to innocent until proven otherwise? A pilot requesting a place of privacy, you refusing and he refusing the test and you then arresting him sounds a lot like judge, jury and wannabe executioner. How much time/hassle/money would be saved and professionalism maintained if the suspect was taken aside quietly and tested in private, found over/under the limit and then dealt with? I can imagine the pilot, if under the limit, thanking the cop for being understanding and for making it slightly more private - ie respect earned and shown.
IMHO your sort of attitude alienates members of the public and, unfortunately, has diminshed the respect I have for the police.
IMHO your sort of attitude alienates members of the public and, unfortunately, has diminshed the respect I have for the police.
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Apologies Overstress, guess I'm showing my age! I've been flying left seat 11 years now so if someone called me passenger cabin, it would indeed seem a little strange. As an original "Chick in the Pit" I heard em all...now answer my question.....
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This is becoming slightly tedious now. At risk of repeating myself I think I have already stated that personally I would take a pilot to somewhere more appropriate to conduct a breath test.
BUT my further point, as supported by other contributors, is if a request is made by a police officer to do something AND that request is supported by statute - then don't be surprised if you land in hot water if you become obstructive and place conditions, and that includes pilots - that's just the way it is. I think I've made the point I'm trying to make so I'll say no more!
BUT my further point, as supported by other contributors, is if a request is made by a police officer to do something AND that request is supported by statute - then don't be surprised if you land in hot water if you become obstructive and place conditions, and that includes pilots - that's just the way it is. I think I've made the point I'm trying to make so I'll say no more!
