Comair TA - Rumor
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Taxman -
411A makes some good points. Granted he's talking IAM, not so much ALPA. The intentional sacrifice of workers for the pleasure of power-tripping by a union whose officials have nothing at stake is more ammoral than politics.
Conversely, after the pilots sealed Eastern's fate - preferring death before dishonor - ALPA was not as effective as it may seem in getting jobs for the Eastern pilots.
Don't forget the Pan Am - Delta deal, either.
Instead of Clinton trying to get "sex" defined, ALPA is trying to spin-doctor "brotherhood."
The jury is still out for a few days; we wait.
411A makes some good points. Granted he's talking IAM, not so much ALPA. The intentional sacrifice of workers for the pleasure of power-tripping by a union whose officials have nothing at stake is more ammoral than politics.
Conversely, after the pilots sealed Eastern's fate - preferring death before dishonor - ALPA was not as effective as it may seem in getting jobs for the Eastern pilots.
Don't forget the Pan Am - Delta deal, either.
Instead of Clinton trying to get "sex" defined, ALPA is trying to spin-doctor "brotherhood."
The jury is still out for a few days; we wait.
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I reiterate what I have said on a previous thread:
Bavis said it best in Aug 89. Go back now or there won´t be anything to go back to.
Comments about ALPA are spot on. There will be no help from them. Want proof?
How many EAL planes do you see at the B and C concourses in ATL?
Bavis said it best in Aug 89. Go back now or there won´t be anything to go back to.
Comments about ALPA are spot on. There will be no help from them. Want proof?
How many EAL planes do you see at the B and C concourses in ATL?
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I agree, the strike may outlast the airline... It looks like Delta is very serious about dismantling Comair, something that is well within their ability and legal rights unless Comair Alpa can somehow block it in the courts.
A couple of analysts' quotes from today's CVG paper:
“The longer Comair is on strike, the more of Comair's aircraft will be flown by other Delta partners,” said Glenn Engel, airline analyst for the Wall Street firm Goldman Sachs. “I won't say that the airline would go away entirely, but when those planes are gone, what happens to the airline?”...
“We just think all the pilots and their families should ask themselves a very serious question — am I better off with Comair or without Comair?”
Airline analyst Ray Neidl said such a question is not inappropriate, especially if talks don't resume after a possible defeat of the proposal.
“Comair could in theory last forever, but they are definitely shrinking on the vine,” said Mr. Neidl, analyst with the Wall Street firm ABN Amro. “The thing is, if the pilots reject this contract and hold out for mainline wages and working conditions that they aren't going to get, there may not be a lot of jobs for them to come back to if the airline restarts.”
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LAWSUIT -
The essence of the lawsuit against ALPA has been published and details the undermining of ComAir.
The details paint ALPA to be quite the self-serving snake with fangs at both ends. Judging by the smell, the snake seems to move backwards.
I don't blame ALPA for protecting the mainline pilots, but you don't rape the children to save mom the "hassle."
If there was a conflict, ALPA should have been open about it & not go through this thinly veiled web of deceit.
No doubt, the CAL pilots have a surprise coming, as well.
The essence of the lawsuit against ALPA has been published and details the undermining of ComAir.
The details paint ALPA to be quite the self-serving snake with fangs at both ends. Judging by the smell, the snake seems to move backwards.
I don't blame ALPA for protecting the mainline pilots, but you don't rape the children to save mom the "hassle."
If there was a conflict, ALPA should have been open about it & not go through this thinly veiled web of deceit.
No doubt, the CAL pilots have a surprise coming, as well.
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Let's hope that BOTH COMAIR mgmt and pilot MEC negotiators make compromises at the table or many of those pilots over 40 might have serious trouble getting interviewed or hired at a good company. It would be tragic for most or all COMAIR careers to be over.
Just curious: did the Delta pilots' MEC in the past ever try to push mgmt for a flow-through agreement?
And the economy is as unpredictable as always. Good luck to all of the COMAIR employees, not just the pilots.
Just curious: did the Delta pilots' MEC in the past ever try to push mgmt for a flow-through agreement?
And the economy is as unpredictable as always. Good luck to all of the COMAIR employees, not just the pilots.
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Thursday May 10, 7:09 pm Eastern Time
Contract Called Crucial for Comair
Comair Management Says Contract Vote Is Critical for Airline's Survival
By JOHN NOLAN
Associated Press Writer
HEBRON, Ky. (AP) -- Comair could proceed with plans to add jets and pilots if the regional carrier's pilots approve a contract proposal created by federal mediators, Delta Air Lines President Frederick W. Reid said Thursday.
If the deal is rejected in voting that began Thursday, Delta would consider offers it has received for some of its jets, Reid told reporters and about 200 Comair workers at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. Results of the contract vote will be be announced Saturday.
Comair has told striking pilots the airline could go out of business if the government proposal to end the walkout is rejected.
Max Roberts, a spokesman for Comair's branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, said Thursday that the proposed contract is not as good as Comair would like everyone to think.
"One thing should obviously stick out,'' he said. "If this is such an absolute gem, why is it so hard to sell to the pilots? If it takes the president of Delta coming up here and threatening the pilots, there's something wrong.''
Comair's three-year growth plan includes buying 80 new jets and adding 900 pilots. Comair is the nation's second-largest regional airline, behind American Eagle, with 1,350 pilots.
Delta paid $1.8 billion last year to have full ownership of Comair, which served about 25,000 passengers a day.
If Comair pilots endorse the deal, they would be the best-paid pilots in the regional airline industry.
The proposed 4 1/2-year contract would offer pay raises of 13.2 percent to 29.8 percent in the first year, with raises of 25.5 percent to 56.5 percent over the life of the contract.
The pilots' union says the offer is insulting and Comair's pilots should be paid in line with pilots at Delta and other major carriers.
Delta officials say the strike is costing about $4 million a day in lost revenue. Union leaders say Comair's future is up to management.
Pilots' union leaders said the mediation board told them there would be no new talks for 30 days if the proposal were rejected.
Comair has shut down all flight operations since the strike began, eliminated 200 pilot jobs and will lay off 2,000 of its 4,000 nonstriking employees on Sunday. It has deferred orders for new jets and sold several older aircraft.
Pilots rejected a five-year deal proposed by Comair in March. Union representatives also declined to endorse that proposal.
Comair, based at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, formerly operated flights to 95 cities in the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas. It has canceled flights through June 7.
Bull$%!#, I believe you guys are wrong and that Delta/Comair management is bluffing, trying to scare the pilots into accepting a very unfavorable contract. Comair claims to have been losing $4 million/day x 45 days = $180,000,000. That means they could have given their pilots $133,333 over the life of this next contract and broken even, but the tab keeps on getting bigger. Management is wasting hundreds of millions in order to deny their pilots from making major airline standard pay. These pilots have worked for substandard pay for many years and helped build this airline to major airline status, for this they get offered another substandard contract take it or we'll shutdown offer. This is pure bull$%!#, they're not going to shutdown. As far as the RJDefense and lawsuit against ALPA, the lawsuit has no merit. My analagy is that this is similar to other DAL employees suing Delta because since the pilots will get a big pay raise, they will not be able to give them a bigger slice of the pie also. Sorry Capt. Dan Ford, (Comair pilot suing ALPA and president of the RJDefense) I guess you need to understand the ramifications of deciding to become a lifer at a major (commuter) airline. Hang in there guys and call their bluff. If it turns out that I'm wrong and they weren't bluffing then this will be the kick in the pants you needed to get out and find that major airline job (you'd probably eventually be grateful that it happened.
Contract Called Crucial for Comair
Comair Management Says Contract Vote Is Critical for Airline's Survival
By JOHN NOLAN
Associated Press Writer
HEBRON, Ky. (AP) -- Comair could proceed with plans to add jets and pilots if the regional carrier's pilots approve a contract proposal created by federal mediators, Delta Air Lines President Frederick W. Reid said Thursday.
If the deal is rejected in voting that began Thursday, Delta would consider offers it has received for some of its jets, Reid told reporters and about 200 Comair workers at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. Results of the contract vote will be be announced Saturday.
Comair has told striking pilots the airline could go out of business if the government proposal to end the walkout is rejected.
Max Roberts, a spokesman for Comair's branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, said Thursday that the proposed contract is not as good as Comair would like everyone to think.
"One thing should obviously stick out,'' he said. "If this is such an absolute gem, why is it so hard to sell to the pilots? If it takes the president of Delta coming up here and threatening the pilots, there's something wrong.''
Comair's three-year growth plan includes buying 80 new jets and adding 900 pilots. Comair is the nation's second-largest regional airline, behind American Eagle, with 1,350 pilots.
Delta paid $1.8 billion last year to have full ownership of Comair, which served about 25,000 passengers a day.
If Comair pilots endorse the deal, they would be the best-paid pilots in the regional airline industry.
The proposed 4 1/2-year contract would offer pay raises of 13.2 percent to 29.8 percent in the first year, with raises of 25.5 percent to 56.5 percent over the life of the contract.
The pilots' union says the offer is insulting and Comair's pilots should be paid in line with pilots at Delta and other major carriers.
Delta officials say the strike is costing about $4 million a day in lost revenue. Union leaders say Comair's future is up to management.
Pilots' union leaders said the mediation board told them there would be no new talks for 30 days if the proposal were rejected.
Comair has shut down all flight operations since the strike began, eliminated 200 pilot jobs and will lay off 2,000 of its 4,000 nonstriking employees on Sunday. It has deferred orders for new jets and sold several older aircraft.
Pilots rejected a five-year deal proposed by Comair in March. Union representatives also declined to endorse that proposal.
Comair, based at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, formerly operated flights to 95 cities in the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas. It has canceled flights through June 7.
Bull$%!#, I believe you guys are wrong and that Delta/Comair management is bluffing, trying to scare the pilots into accepting a very unfavorable contract. Comair claims to have been losing $4 million/day x 45 days = $180,000,000. That means they could have given their pilots $133,333 over the life of this next contract and broken even, but the tab keeps on getting bigger. Management is wasting hundreds of millions in order to deny their pilots from making major airline standard pay. These pilots have worked for substandard pay for many years and helped build this airline to major airline status, for this they get offered another substandard contract take it or we'll shutdown offer. This is pure bull$%!#, they're not going to shutdown. As far as the RJDefense and lawsuit against ALPA, the lawsuit has no merit. My analagy is that this is similar to other DAL employees suing Delta because since the pilots will get a big pay raise, they will not be able to give them a bigger slice of the pie also. Sorry Capt. Dan Ford, (Comair pilot suing ALPA and president of the RJDefense) I guess you need to understand the ramifications of deciding to become a lifer at a major (commuter) airline. Hang in there guys and call their bluff. If it turns out that I'm wrong and they weren't bluffing then this will be the kick in the pants you needed to get out and find that major airline job (you'd probably eventually be grateful that it happened.
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Hang in there guys,
Of topic, Anyone know of a Capt.R.DePaiva? Sure would like his e-mail details.
Cheers Skyrocket,
[email protected]
------------------
126.9 call,, ANYBODY out there???
Of topic, Anyone know of a Capt.R.DePaiva? Sure would like his e-mail details.
Cheers Skyrocket,
[email protected]
------------------
126.9 call,, ANYBODY out there???
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Gentlemen, I suggest you ignore anything that 411 has to say. If you have a look at the 'Fragrant Harbour' Forum, you will see he is spending 25 hours a day trying to upset the Cathay Pacific pilots who are trying to stand against their managements attempts to destroy their careers. He joined our once 'scab' outfit, Cathay Freighters, and failed his upgrade. He is now in Singapore. He originally was an Eastern Scab. He is an embittered and burnt out has-been who has almost SEVEN HUNDRED (yes....700) posts on PPRUNE. What sort of pathetic individual has THAT much to say on issues involving nearly every airline in the world. What a pathetic old fool.
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411a (I use the little a as in scAb), just knew you had something to hide. Two days ago they (DL/CMR) said we'll close the doors if you don't vote yes, now today if you vote yes we will add 80 more RJ's and 900 more crews (as per Leo M. of DL on the news) do figure. Well here is something you don't have to figure out: an overwhelming vote of NO! And by the way 411"a" don't key any cars over there.
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"Resistance" has his knickers in a twist, as usual. CX Freighters, EAL? Sorry sport, wrong again. SQ, left there years ago. CX guys are upset because I pointed out some of their past problems. Afraid they are affected by the Ostrich Syndrome, bury head in sand and hope problems go away. As for Comair, suspect that the condition may well be terminal. Mullin & Company are in the drivers seat, and if the guys listen to the old ALPA line and reject the package, many will be on the street. Looks like DAL means business. Time will tell.
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Folks, no persuasion or arguement can influence another person's different, especially opposite outlook if one is disregarded, or worse, attacked in a personal manner. This is related to the main reason for cockpit CRM-keep egos mostly locked in the car trunk (boot?). Why not on Pprune?
Nothing in the world of business or politics operates exactly like theory, everything involves making compromises, but who should compromise the most? Realism and a very well calculated risk assessment is critical, while also factoring in the overall landscape. As grim examples, Napoleon did not really understand the gently sloping terrain at Waterloo (and his enemy's ability to hide thousands of troops just behind it.
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 12 May 2001).]
Nothing in the world of business or politics operates exactly like theory, everything involves making compromises, but who should compromise the most? Realism and a very well calculated risk assessment is critical, while also factoring in the overall landscape. As grim examples, Napoleon did not really understand the gently sloping terrain at Waterloo (and his enemy's ability to hide thousands of troops just behind it.
[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 12 May 2001).]
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>>He is an embittered and burnt out has-been who has almost SEVEN HUNDRED (yes....700) posts on PPRUNE. What sort of pathetic individual has THAT much to say on issues involving nearly every airline in the world. What a pathetic old fool. <<
I agree, anybody with 700 posts must be a pathetic old fool <g>...
I agree, anybody with 700 posts must be a pathetic old fool <g>...
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Comair boys & girls need to realize what I did a couple of years ago at ASA. In the Delta family, you gon' sleep under the porch. You ain't gonna make it inside the big house.
Before they were 100% bought by DAL, Comair used to have huge ambitions. They wanted to BE the next Delta. And why not? 35 years ago Delta pilots were flying turboprops between Augusta and Atlanta....
What needs to happen: cobble together a contract, then get Leo to divest himself of you and ASA. Form a joint airline. Develop more point to point, non-Delta service. RJ's are money-printing machines. Become the competition, not the "midget widget."
'Course, easy for me to say. I pulled the handles early.
Before they were 100% bought by DAL, Comair used to have huge ambitions. They wanted to BE the next Delta. And why not? 35 years ago Delta pilots were flying turboprops between Augusta and Atlanta....
What needs to happen: cobble together a contract, then get Leo to divest himself of you and ASA. Form a joint airline. Develop more point to point, non-Delta service. RJ's are money-printing machines. Become the competition, not the "midget widget."
'Course, easy for me to say. I pulled the handles early.