Very poor pay offer for jmc pilots
Guest
Posts: n/a
Very poor pay offer for jmc pilots
jmc pilots today received thier long awaited pay offer
1) 3.5% increase to basic salary
2) No increase to pension (Told that this and staff travel are Non-negotiable!!!)
3) A Flight crew duty agreement that will be contractual as of Feb 2002. (However some of its finer pionts are still to be ratified??)
Plus a few winges that we are now hard up we are. Yet i remember going to meeting just after our first year of aoperation and being told that we had made some huge profit? who's pocket did that go into??
1) 3.5% increase to basic salary
2) No increase to pension (Told that this and staff travel are Non-negotiable!!!)
3) A Flight crew duty agreement that will be contractual as of Feb 2002. (However some of its finer pionts are still to be ratified??)
Plus a few winges that we are now hard up we are. Yet i remember going to meeting just after our first year of aoperation and being told that we had made some huge profit? who's pocket did that go into??
Guest
Posts: n/a
Aha, standby1
So you're not a yank after all. So what was all that about "supperior" pay and conditions to the union members on another, current, thread?
Are you whingeing because you're not a union member or because you are one and the union has let you down on this "very poor pay offer"?
So you're not a yank after all. So what was all that about "supperior" pay and conditions to the union members on another, current, thread?
Are you whingeing because you're not a union member or because you are one and the union has let you down on this "very poor pay offer"?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Doc C, so do footballers, so what has that got to do with the price of eggs in China? If you are going to be a d i c k h e a d then at least be one with some sort of an attept at a primitive brain!
I may as well descend to your level of intelligence (not) and state that you are probably jealous because you are a wannabe who never had the nounce to make it as a pro pilot! Has a kind of logic that you will be able to comprehend!
I may as well descend to your level of intelligence (not) and state that you are probably jealous because you are a wannabe who never had the nounce to make it as a pro pilot! Has a kind of logic that you will be able to comprehend!
Guest
Posts: n/a
With many airlines reducing flights and increasing aircraft retirements I would have thought that ANY increase in pay would be welcomed. Of course, some of these guys could be like the recent Atlas pilots....out in the street. Or JMC could be folded into another carrier, with no collective agreement at all.
Don't make too many waves guys, least the boat be swamped.
Don't make too many waves guys, least the boat be swamped.
Guest
Posts: n/a
OzDude and BAlite
Egomaniacs both and both entirely missed the point I was trying to make. What it has to do with the price of eggs in China, OZ Dude, is that like footballers, there is a marketplace and JMC has assessed that marketplace as being worth a 3.5% pay rise this year
I also happen to get paid a lot more than most people and also more than a lot of pilots. (So not jealous of your pay, OK?)
Why do you assume that because I am not a pilot I must be jealous of those who are. I happen to respect most pilots I know for the immense technical knowledge they posess and the skills they have, so DON'T come that old hoary one. The ones I DON'T respect are the ones like you who naturally assume that everyone wants to be a pilot and if we don't there must be something wrong with us. I'm also not a footballer and neither do I wish to be.
The fact that you (and I) get paid oodles of loot to do something we enjoy doing is a bonus, so lets not forget that three percent of what we get is still quite a lot of money, and probably a sizeable percentage of what the cabin crew down the back get as an annual salary. Lets keep it in perspective, eh?
Trouble is, when delicate little boy egos like yours get pricked, the only answer you have is to insult the brain power of the ego pricker. Hardly grown up, is it? You give pilots a bad name.
Doc C.
(Edited for the odd shot that was a bit too far below the belt)
------------------
The more people I meet, the more I like my dog!
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 20 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 20 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 20 June 2001).]
Egomaniacs both and both entirely missed the point I was trying to make. What it has to do with the price of eggs in China, OZ Dude, is that like footballers, there is a marketplace and JMC has assessed that marketplace as being worth a 3.5% pay rise this year
I also happen to get paid a lot more than most people and also more than a lot of pilots. (So not jealous of your pay, OK?)
Why do you assume that because I am not a pilot I must be jealous of those who are. I happen to respect most pilots I know for the immense technical knowledge they posess and the skills they have, so DON'T come that old hoary one. The ones I DON'T respect are the ones like you who naturally assume that everyone wants to be a pilot and if we don't there must be something wrong with us. I'm also not a footballer and neither do I wish to be.
The fact that you (and I) get paid oodles of loot to do something we enjoy doing is a bonus, so lets not forget that three percent of what we get is still quite a lot of money, and probably a sizeable percentage of what the cabin crew down the back get as an annual salary. Lets keep it in perspective, eh?
Trouble is, when delicate little boy egos like yours get pricked, the only answer you have is to insult the brain power of the ego pricker. Hardly grown up, is it? You give pilots a bad name.
Doc C.
(Edited for the odd shot that was a bit too far below the belt)
------------------
The more people I meet, the more I like my dog!
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 20 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 20 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 20 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
DoctorCruces--
Unfortunately, many in the airline pilot community today have the same attitudes as OzDude & BAlite, they think the sun rises and sets on their backsides, premadonnas in the extreme.
I watched dozens of these types arrive at SV in the 80's and 90's, all dumped by their old airlines (Braniff, Eastern, for example) when the companies went out of business. You would have thought that their attitudes would change, slightly more humble perhaps. To the contrary, they were just as hard-nosed as ever. The Eastern guys even tried to start a union, in Jeddah of all places.
Most of these malcontents just never learn.
Unfortunately, many in the airline pilot community today have the same attitudes as OzDude & BAlite, they think the sun rises and sets on their backsides, premadonnas in the extreme.
I watched dozens of these types arrive at SV in the 80's and 90's, all dumped by their old airlines (Braniff, Eastern, for example) when the companies went out of business. You would have thought that their attitudes would change, slightly more humble perhaps. To the contrary, they were just as hard-nosed as ever. The Eastern guys even tried to start a union, in Jeddah of all places.
Most of these malcontents just never learn.
Guest
Posts: n/a
It's really very simple....
Do you know how much money people make from writing books on diets and health regimes. When we all know it's calories in vs. calories burned that make you fat or thin?
It's the same here in as much as we all know what the problem and the solution are.
You whinge, but stay = no pay deal. You leave, they listen = everyone else that stayed gets a pay rise.
The fact is that you won't leave because you are in 'the system' that says that if you stay with us you will benefit from having a high seniority. This industry differs from many in that seniority, rather than suitability, pays off when it comes to promotions etc.
So you stay in your chosen company hoping that they will reward your loyalty.
In England we call it being caught by the short and curlies.
Do you know how much money people make from writing books on diets and health regimes. When we all know it's calories in vs. calories burned that make you fat or thin?
It's the same here in as much as we all know what the problem and the solution are.
You whinge, but stay = no pay deal. You leave, they listen = everyone else that stayed gets a pay rise.
The fact is that you won't leave because you are in 'the system' that says that if you stay with us you will benefit from having a high seniority. This industry differs from many in that seniority, rather than suitability, pays off when it comes to promotions etc.
So you stay in your chosen company hoping that they will reward your loyalty.
In England we call it being caught by the short and curlies.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Standby 1.
Scoobey doo is absolutely right. JMC pilots should get exactly what they deserve.
Tell your reps that you want them to reject the deal and that you are willing to go on strike to improve it. Tell your reps that you want a ballot on the pay offer - that way you have only yourselves to blame if the offer is accepted.
If there are some non members in your airline, ask them what they think of the deal and what they are going to do to improve it - unless they think it is ok of course!
If you and your colleagues are not willing to go on strike, then you will get exactly what you deserve - not very much!
Scoobey doo is absolutely right. JMC pilots should get exactly what they deserve.
Tell your reps that you want them to reject the deal and that you are willing to go on strike to improve it. Tell your reps that you want a ballot on the pay offer - that way you have only yourselves to blame if the offer is accepted.
If there are some non members in your airline, ask them what they think of the deal and what they are going to do to improve it - unless they think it is ok of course!
If you and your colleagues are not willing to go on strike, then you will get exactly what you deserve - not very much!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I love it when all you charter sorts start crying about your pay package. I work in the low cost, bloody hard work sector, but I regularly take home £4500.00 per month.
Yeh, I dont get fed, I am on a diet anyway, and I have to pay for my own shirts- but at the end of the day it is what goes in the bank that counts.
I know you all love the cudos of flying big aeroplanes, but when it comes to retiring it is the size of the bank balance that counts, not how many twats you have been flying around! Also, look out for the staff share options which are about to be offered by a recently sold low cost airline. These are rumoured to be the equivalent of one years salary!! Big bucks brother......
Yeh, I dont get fed, I am on a diet anyway, and I have to pay for my own shirts- but at the end of the day it is what goes in the bank that counts.
I know you all love the cudos of flying big aeroplanes, but when it comes to retiring it is the size of the bank balance that counts, not how many twats you have been flying around! Also, look out for the staff share options which are about to be offered by a recently sold low cost airline. These are rumoured to be the equivalent of one years salary!! Big bucks brother......
Guest
Posts: n/a
From what i understand the jmc deal didn't offer much apart from a possibly insulting 3.5%. Even though the Britannia boys and girls received 3.2% they were given day off insurances and day off premiums worth up to £425. In jmc I belive only £50 is available for a day off.
The pension is set up for office staff as if you join with an ATPL (earliest age for attainment is 21) after full service to retirement at 60 you would still have to pay additional contributions to have you max 2/3 pensionable salary.
Even though jmc is part of the Thomas Cook group it is still possible to get cheaper TC holidays at you local high street.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are more gripes!
The pension is set up for office staff as if you join with an ATPL (earliest age for attainment is 21) after full service to retirement at 60 you would still have to pay additional contributions to have you max 2/3 pensionable salary.
Even though jmc is part of the Thomas Cook group it is still possible to get cheaper TC holidays at you local high street.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are more gripes!
Guest
Posts: n/a
You know pilots are a funny bunch sometimes. We are in the market place when it comes to pay and conditions and we will only achieve an increase in both when the management believe they need to do so in order to protect the core business. Good salaries don't come along as a right.
Its also a fact of life that seniority is everything,( well nearly), and you will only achieve a top salary if you stick around for twenty years. That makes the job frustrating at times.
Don't bicker amongst each other and look out for each other. A good pay deal will work for others as well as a poor one does.
Lets be careful out there,
Its also a fact of life that seniority is everything,( well nearly), and you will only achieve a top salary if you stick around for twenty years. That makes the job frustrating at times.
Don't bicker amongst each other and look out for each other. A good pay deal will work for others as well as a poor one does.
Lets be careful out there,
Guest
Posts: n/a
Trying to play devils advocate here....
Exactly what would you call a good pay increase? And what were you looking for?
I do work in management (strategy) and I got a 3.2% pay increase this year, which I was quite happy with.
I read all the comments about "we made a huge profit this year...where did it all go?" Well for one thing, not the lower management thats for sure!!! The people who say this phrase seem to think that management screw the pilots so that they can keep the profit...wrong!!! and very short sighted. Remember, we are all in this together!! High management salaries are as bad as high pilot salaries. At the end of the day, it all ads up to higher costs!!
I could earn a LOT more if I worked in a different industry, but I choose to work in this one, because the benefits (travel etc) are so good. I do not winge about it. If you don't like your current job, go and work somewhere else. With the JAA regs, and the EU working rules, why not go and work for AF or LH or someone else.
I am all for performance related pay (in terms of profitability) but how many people would honestly take a pay cut when the business is doing babdly...not many I would imagine...but most use it as an excuse to seek a payrise when the business is doing well.
Sorry, if this offends...just a little annoyed by the content of this topic!!!
[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 20 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 20 June 2001).]
Exactly what would you call a good pay increase? And what were you looking for?
I do work in management (strategy) and I got a 3.2% pay increase this year, which I was quite happy with.
I read all the comments about "we made a huge profit this year...where did it all go?" Well for one thing, not the lower management thats for sure!!! The people who say this phrase seem to think that management screw the pilots so that they can keep the profit...wrong!!! and very short sighted. Remember, we are all in this together!! High management salaries are as bad as high pilot salaries. At the end of the day, it all ads up to higher costs!!
I could earn a LOT more if I worked in a different industry, but I choose to work in this one, because the benefits (travel etc) are so good. I do not winge about it. If you don't like your current job, go and work somewhere else. With the JAA regs, and the EU working rules, why not go and work for AF or LH or someone else.
I am all for performance related pay (in terms of profitability) but how many people would honestly take a pay cut when the business is doing babdly...not many I would imagine...but most use it as an excuse to seek a payrise when the business is doing well.
Sorry, if this offends...just a little annoyed by the content of this topic!!!
[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 20 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 20 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Unfortunately DocC has missed the point again. As for 411A, well the less said the better as he is a middle tier manager who thinks he knows it all but can only jump in when he sees his values being attacked but serves no other purpose than to relate everything to his American experience and then tries to apply it over here.
My point DocC, and you reitierate it again in your feeble reply, that we should compare our salaries to everyone elses, especially the poor cabin crew down the back. I am not saying that the 3.5% that JMC have offered is good or bad, only that your comment about how many others make much less than us is irrelevant and such comments smack of a management type who has no real argument (or managerial skill) to counter a claim for any pay rise because you think all pilots are overpaid anyway.
If the cabin crew can organise themselves with their union and fight for a realistic and worthwhile pay package then good luck to them. unfortunately, I know for a fact that the vast majority of them in the UK IT operators are not unionised and are so totally unorganised that they take home a pittance for the hours worked and the responsibilities they carry. But for me or any other pilot to even consider that we shouldn't ask for too much just because the cabin crew don't earn anything as much we do is about as pathetic as you can get.
Every salary survey ever completed on pilots pay shows that those companies where there is a solid backing of the union and the union is recognised by the company, the pilots on average earn more than those companies where they are not recognised and/or the pilots are not particularly active in their union. So if there is a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots and the company has made good profits then the pilots should fight for their share and if they think 3.5% isn't good enough then they should tell their reps and carry on negotiating and if that fails then they should consider some form of industrial action. To hell with what the cabin crew or the honey cart team earn. Do not even consider comparing to them. If they are organised they will fight for what they are worth through their own unions.
The first thing any management group will do when trying to undermine any pay negotiation is disinform everyone else and try to make them feel outraged that the highly paid, rich pilots are going to endanger their jobs because of their outrageous pay claim. It's all bullcr@p and a typical management strategy to undemine the pilot group. The press will love it and any union that doesn't have its act together and have a powerful media lobby and PR department will have a problem with the public and co-workers support and it is exactly the kind of lilly livered response by DocC that hurts any negotiation.
As for 411A, well his reactions are precisely what I'm talking about here. Middle tier manager toeing the company dictat and brown noseing his way up the chain without any real regard for the pilots. As long as he can shave money off his budget and earn his bonus he doesn't care. The pilots never brought down any airline, especially the ones he mentions, just poor management by inept managers brings airlines down.
[This message has been edited by OzDude (edited 20 June 2001).]
My point DocC, and you reitierate it again in your feeble reply, that we should compare our salaries to everyone elses, especially the poor cabin crew down the back. I am not saying that the 3.5% that JMC have offered is good or bad, only that your comment about how many others make much less than us is irrelevant and such comments smack of a management type who has no real argument (or managerial skill) to counter a claim for any pay rise because you think all pilots are overpaid anyway.
If the cabin crew can organise themselves with their union and fight for a realistic and worthwhile pay package then good luck to them. unfortunately, I know for a fact that the vast majority of them in the UK IT operators are not unionised and are so totally unorganised that they take home a pittance for the hours worked and the responsibilities they carry. But for me or any other pilot to even consider that we shouldn't ask for too much just because the cabin crew don't earn anything as much we do is about as pathetic as you can get.
Every salary survey ever completed on pilots pay shows that those companies where there is a solid backing of the union and the union is recognised by the company, the pilots on average earn more than those companies where they are not recognised and/or the pilots are not particularly active in their union. So if there is a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots and the company has made good profits then the pilots should fight for their share and if they think 3.5% isn't good enough then they should tell their reps and carry on negotiating and if that fails then they should consider some form of industrial action. To hell with what the cabin crew or the honey cart team earn. Do not even consider comparing to them. If they are organised they will fight for what they are worth through their own unions.
The first thing any management group will do when trying to undermine any pay negotiation is disinform everyone else and try to make them feel outraged that the highly paid, rich pilots are going to endanger their jobs because of their outrageous pay claim. It's all bullcr@p and a typical management strategy to undemine the pilot group. The press will love it and any union that doesn't have its act together and have a powerful media lobby and PR department will have a problem with the public and co-workers support and it is exactly the kind of lilly livered response by DocC that hurts any negotiation.
As for 411A, well his reactions are precisely what I'm talking about here. Middle tier manager toeing the company dictat and brown noseing his way up the chain without any real regard for the pilots. As long as he can shave money off his budget and earn his bonus he doesn't care. The pilots never brought down any airline, especially the ones he mentions, just poor management by inept managers brings airlines down.
[This message has been edited by OzDude (edited 20 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ozdude,
Your entire post refered to how the management's raison d'etre is to screw the pilots. That is extremely immature. Haven't you thought that possibly the reason why management react in the way you suggest, is because they encounter people like you? Maybe it isn't, but there is blame on both sides. It seems like your soul intention is to organise (for oraganise read unionise) all pilots so that they can get a better pay deal...irrelevant if they deserve it or not!!!
Do you really believe that the pilots at UA deserve to be paid the very high salaries that they have just won? I do not believe so. I also do not believe that people like the CEO of Marks & Spencer deserves a bonus for increasing the loss of profits, and decreasing the share price!
However, before I get attacked for being a typical managment type (yes...I am in management...not directly anything to do with flight crew, but business strategy), I believe that senior management should have a very low base salary, but have large, performance related salaries. I do not mind people being paid a lot, but only if their performance justifies it!
You are also wrong in suggesting that pilots never brought down an airline and that its ALL managements fault. Well, one group on its own has NOT brought down an airline...a mixture on both sides does that.
Your entire post refered to how the management's raison d'etre is to screw the pilots. That is extremely immature. Haven't you thought that possibly the reason why management react in the way you suggest, is because they encounter people like you? Maybe it isn't, but there is blame on both sides. It seems like your soul intention is to organise (for oraganise read unionise) all pilots so that they can get a better pay deal...irrelevant if they deserve it or not!!!
Do you really believe that the pilots at UA deserve to be paid the very high salaries that they have just won? I do not believe so. I also do not believe that people like the CEO of Marks & Spencer deserves a bonus for increasing the loss of profits, and decreasing the share price!
However, before I get attacked for being a typical managment type (yes...I am in management...not directly anything to do with flight crew, but business strategy), I believe that senior management should have a very low base salary, but have large, performance related salaries. I do not mind people being paid a lot, but only if their performance justifies it!
You are also wrong in suggesting that pilots never brought down an airline and that its ALL managements fault. Well, one group on its own has NOT brought down an airline...a mixture on both sides does that.