BA cabin crew threaten to poison pilots
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I totally agree with you, why the hell would you poison us but hey I'm afraid to say there are some small minded people out there who believe in this rubbish.
I think joking about it is the best way to deal with it - nobody really believes that anyone would actually go through with something that stupid . . . . . . . . . . .
I think joking about it is the best way to deal with it - nobody really believes that anyone would actually go through with something that stupid . . . . . . . . . . .
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Originally Posted by ChewyTheWookie
I can't believe that this minor joke has been taken completley out of context... Absolutely pathetic...
For a start, when you are at the back of an aircraft flying along at 500mph and 35,000 feet, why on earth would you deliberatly endanger one of the only 2 people on board who can safely control it? It's idiots overreacting about tiny jokes like this that force the cabin/flight crew divide wider and wider...
For a start, when you are at the back of an aircraft flying along at 500mph and 35,000 feet, why on earth would you deliberatly endanger one of the only 2 people on board who can safely control it? It's idiots overreacting about tiny jokes like this that force the cabin/flight crew divide wider and wider...
At a recent discussion in a bar downroute on this subject, I pointed out exactly this to a couple of young cabin crew who had been boasting about their activities with the food of a particular captain. There was complete mystery on their faces until they thought for a few minutes & realised that they had in fact endangered their own lives.
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I'm not sure what 'facts' captcat (or anyone else) expects to be posted.
Date, time, place and named victims?
It's hardly surprising people don't bother reporting confessions made informally. The chances of anything coming of it are about nil.
The perpetrator would almost certainly claim no incident actually happened/that the confession was made in fun, and it would be difficult if not impossible to prove otherwise.
FL
Date, time, place and named victims?
It's hardly surprising people don't bother reporting confessions made informally. The chances of anything coming of it are about nil.
The perpetrator would almost certainly claim no incident actually happened/that the confession was made in fun, and it would be difficult if not impossible to prove otherwise.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 20th Apr 2006 at 22:44.
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Flying Lawyer,
if someone told me that he did in the past endanger the safety of the aircraft, or intended to do it, I would not hesitate for a second to report it, even if it had been told informally. We have procedures for that kind of things, and no one would blame us for expressing a doubt concerning safety. On the contrary, we are constantly encouraged to do so.
Speaking of facts, I was not expecting to see any of it posted actually, because I know there isn't any.
Let's sum up: some pilots have heard CC brag about poisoning other pilots' meals, and some think they have been the victims themselves, and have not reported it (and they never requested to be tested, even "knowing" that it is a common occurrence. Maybe not through the company, but through the Union?). I think any person being aware of a piece of information like this would be as criminal as the perpetrator not to report it. And that makes me think that if no one ever did it it is, maybe, because as fascinating as feeling under a threat may be, they know deep down that it is all rubbish, or it never actually happened to them. Yes, just plain old urban myths to scare the pals around the campfire. Or are we saying that the ones in charge of even reporting that a spare bulb is missing don't bother to report a matter of this gravity?
Maybe, but that surely would cure them and their pals from "joking" in such a stupid way. There is also a very efficient tool called CRM, that should tackle a problem like this, even if only not to spread stupid rumors that some fool might want to put in practice one day.
What I'm saying is, that if it is recognised that we indeed have a problem, it should be tackled in no time, and that any person aware of it should have the duty of reporting it, and not only spreading rumors in an anonymous board where it is only harming the good name of a whole fine company where thousands of fine professionals do their best every day to achieve excellence, and earn their bacon while they're there.
Finally, one of the laws of aviation is that whatever you are hiding your head in the sand from, will surely sting you in the butt at some point. Refraining to look into a phenomenon like pilot poisoning (you can never know what it will turn out: how can you be sure that it will only be an upset stomach?) would be plain stupid on a company's behalf, and if it was really so widespread as some think it is, it would have been addressed at some point.
I see a lot of animosity and agressiveness here which does not help objectivity. Let's prove that what moves some comments is not the wish to score cheap points but the will to tackle a problem. It is not a match of them against us. Let's stop throwing accusations and whip a pet conspiracy theory like cream and do something constructive.
if someone told me that he did in the past endanger the safety of the aircraft, or intended to do it, I would not hesitate for a second to report it, even if it had been told informally. We have procedures for that kind of things, and no one would blame us for expressing a doubt concerning safety. On the contrary, we are constantly encouraged to do so.
Speaking of facts, I was not expecting to see any of it posted actually, because I know there isn't any.
Let's sum up: some pilots have heard CC brag about poisoning other pilots' meals, and some think they have been the victims themselves, and have not reported it (and they never requested to be tested, even "knowing" that it is a common occurrence. Maybe not through the company, but through the Union?). I think any person being aware of a piece of information like this would be as criminal as the perpetrator not to report it. And that makes me think that if no one ever did it it is, maybe, because as fascinating as feeling under a threat may be, they know deep down that it is all rubbish, or it never actually happened to them. Yes, just plain old urban myths to scare the pals around the campfire. Or are we saying that the ones in charge of even reporting that a spare bulb is missing don't bother to report a matter of this gravity?
The perpetrator would almost certainly claim no incident actually happened/that the confession was made in fun, and it would be difficult if not impossible to prove otherwise.
What I'm saying is, that if it is recognised that we indeed have a problem, it should be tackled in no time, and that any person aware of it should have the duty of reporting it, and not only spreading rumors in an anonymous board where it is only harming the good name of a whole fine company where thousands of fine professionals do their best every day to achieve excellence, and earn their bacon while they're there.
Finally, one of the laws of aviation is that whatever you are hiding your head in the sand from, will surely sting you in the butt at some point. Refraining to look into a phenomenon like pilot poisoning (you can never know what it will turn out: how can you be sure that it will only be an upset stomach?) would be plain stupid on a company's behalf, and if it was really so widespread as some think it is, it would have been addressed at some point.
I see a lot of animosity and agressiveness here which does not help objectivity. Let's prove that what moves some comments is not the wish to score cheap points but the will to tackle a problem. It is not a match of them against us. Let's stop throwing accusations and whip a pet conspiracy theory like cream and do something constructive.
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captcat
Some say it's a 'conspiracy theory' or urban myth; others say it's not.
As an outsider, I'm obviously not in a position to say who's right.
However, I've read (for example) what Rainboe has said on this thread and have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve him. I read his posts regularly and regard him as a reliable source on airline matters. In one post, he said "Thing is, they tell you when the target is anonymous, and the event was on a different trip." That doesn't surprise me in the slightest; it's what I'd expect.
Also, although I don't have access to the BASSA forum, I have read similar claims/comments in the CC forum here over the years - by people who either appear to have a 'chip' about pilots generally, or are irritated about some incident which they saw as a slight to their perceived status.
If people are sufficiently irresponsible and immature to make the claims, I don't have any difficulty in believing they may be sufficiently irresponsible and immature to do it.
If it doesn't happen, why do some cabin attendants say it does?
FL
Some say it's a 'conspiracy theory' or urban myth; others say it's not.
As an outsider, I'm obviously not in a position to say who's right.
However, I've read (for example) what Rainboe has said on this thread and have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve him. I read his posts regularly and regard him as a reliable source on airline matters. In one post, he said "Thing is, they tell you when the target is anonymous, and the event was on a different trip." That doesn't surprise me in the slightest; it's what I'd expect.
Also, although I don't have access to the BASSA forum, I have read similar claims/comments in the CC forum here over the years - by people who either appear to have a 'chip' about pilots generally, or are irritated about some incident which they saw as a slight to their perceived status.
If people are sufficiently irresponsible and immature to make the claims, I don't have any difficulty in believing they may be sufficiently irresponsible and immature to do it.
If it doesn't happen, why do some cabin attendants say it does?
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 21st Apr 2006 at 00:47.
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Eyedrops can kill
Originally Posted by tristar500
Whats the big deal with eye drops... Maybe Iam blind to their detremental effects here but this thread is focusing on eye drops, as a 'poison' to put in crew dinners etc.
Would someone in the know please explain...
Would someone in the know please explain...
Eyedrops contain tetrahydrozoline. (see here http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/visine.asp)
One thing tetrahydrozoline has not been known to do is to cause sudden onset bouts of severe diarrhoea.
Drinking it can (and has) caused severe depression of the central nervous system.
I repeat what I said earlier.
Swallowing this substance can result in a number of nasty effects, including:
- Lowering body temperature to dangerous levels
- Making breathing difficult, or even halting it entirely
- Blurring vision
- Causing nausea and vomiting
- Elevating and then dropping blood pressure
- Causing seizures or tremors
- Sending the ingester into a coma
Warning Toxic!
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Protestations that one should demand to 'be tested!' don't really lead to anything. Tested for what? Your steak being wiped around a toilet? The eye drops trick? Body fluids check? Check what? How? Especially when the organisation one would turn to for help (the airline itself) is not readily available in an out of the way place, and has a quite positive vested interest in squashing the whole suspicion of the problem! There is always the question that were one to accuse someone of uncorroborated comments, the word would get around and guess who cannot trust his food anymore? It's quite an accusation to make against someone, but then it's also quite an admission for them to make, but they have always known to make it without witnesses- so if it's word against word, where do you stand? That is why official complaints have not been made. But I know that the admission has been made to me and many others very proudly! I truly believe it is the culture, and it is a culture that is bad in BA, and these people who do such things just don't think that they are poisoning the very person who keeps them alive. It's spiteful, nasty and vindictive, and it starts as soon as people join in that damn training school where bad attitudes are instilled right from the beginning before they even see an aeroplane, and fostered by some of the daft leaflets and statements sent out by BASSA!
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peanutgallery
thank you for your post. That is what I call facts. And it deflates the urban myth of eyedrops causing diarrhoea.
Flying Lawyer
I don't tink that you have any reason to disbelieve Rainboe either. I believe him when he says that he heard things said by people heavily imbibed, while he was maybe having a glass or two himself. But do you have any reason to disbelieve me either when I say that in years of flying I have never, ever once heard anyone admitting or even hinting at something that would be criminal and stupid?
I have met CC that by personal choice didn't particularly like pilots, or one pilot in particular. What I have witnessed is:
-pilots spending the layover on their own
-the Upper Deck CC position being taken as last choice
-exchanges being kept to the professional minimum
but, I repeat never ever any food or beverage being tampered with. And I must add I'm at my 5th airline.
If it was true that someone boasted having done so, it would be imperative to report the matter, to investigate it further, take the appropriate action to prevent that kind of rumour and subject to become a joke, and have a good talk with the ones in charge of the recruitment about the requirements needed to take up a post where maturity and responsibility are a must.
Finally, if you really have read
may I point you to the "report to Moderator" button facility that is available to report any post that you think might be overstepping the limit?
One of the CC Forum Moderator is a Captain, so I think that he would not be too inclined (nor the other Moderators, I should add) to tolerate one of those claims/comments.
thank you for your post. That is what I call facts. And it deflates the urban myth of eyedrops causing diarrhoea.
Flying Lawyer
I don't tink that you have any reason to disbelieve Rainboe either. I believe him when he says that he heard things said by people heavily imbibed, while he was maybe having a glass or two himself. But do you have any reason to disbelieve me either when I say that in years of flying I have never, ever once heard anyone admitting or even hinting at something that would be criminal and stupid?
I have met CC that by personal choice didn't particularly like pilots, or one pilot in particular. What I have witnessed is:
-pilots spending the layover on their own
-the Upper Deck CC position being taken as last choice
-exchanges being kept to the professional minimum
but, I repeat never ever any food or beverage being tampered with. And I must add I'm at my 5th airline.
If it was true that someone boasted having done so, it would be imperative to report the matter, to investigate it further, take the appropriate action to prevent that kind of rumour and subject to become a joke, and have a good talk with the ones in charge of the recruitment about the requirements needed to take up a post where maturity and responsibility are a must.
Finally, if you really have read
similar claims/comments in the CC forum here over the years
One of the CC Forum Moderator is a Captain, so I think that he would not be too inclined (nor the other Moderators, I should add) to tolerate one of those claims/comments.
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I really hope no member of our cabin crew would ever consider poisoning their colleagues.
Chrissakes! I've often said that if only British Airways could only get us all to work as a proper team, we'd take the whole world by storm!!!
The one incident in my life I am really, genuinely ashamed of was when I was in the army on steward duty! We had an evil Warrant Officer on our Landing Craft Logistic (LCL) and I spiked his steak with Senokot!
Crikey! I thought I'd killed him! It started off as a joke, watching him disappear to the heads clutching his stomach halfway through the dessert course - but when he had to be airlifted off from the Minches and flown down to RN Haslar in Portsmouth, I really imagined the undertakers would have to be called! He was very ill for weeks afterwards and, although he was evil to us squaddies, he didn't deserve the full measure he received!
Practical tomfoolery can be serious!
Chrissakes! I've often said that if only British Airways could only get us all to work as a proper team, we'd take the whole world by storm!!!
The one incident in my life I am really, genuinely ashamed of was when I was in the army on steward duty! We had an evil Warrant Officer on our Landing Craft Logistic (LCL) and I spiked his steak with Senokot!
Crikey! I thought I'd killed him! It started off as a joke, watching him disappear to the heads clutching his stomach halfway through the dessert course - but when he had to be airlifted off from the Minches and flown down to RN Haslar in Portsmouth, I really imagined the undertakers would have to be called! He was very ill for weeks afterwards and, although he was evil to us squaddies, he didn't deserve the full measure he received!
Practical tomfoolery can be serious!
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captkat
I have no reason to disbelieve you but, with respect, your various posts on this thread give me the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that you are reluctant to accept something you haven't experienced yourself, and that it would be very difficult for anyone to persuade you otherwise.
I have no reason to disbelieve that you, in years of flying "have never, ever once heard anyone admitting or even hinting at something that would be criminal and stupid" - but (for example) Rainboe has.
Yes, I "really have read" similar comments/claims in the CC forum over the years.
Even if I had the time/inclination to try, and the 'search' function went back more than a year, it would be difficult to find them because the comments I've seen have been made during the course of discussions, not as a topics of their own. From memory, they have usually been contained in what I can best describe as one of those 'Who does he think he is' type posts. (FAs referring to a Captain.)
I'm familiar with the "report to Moderator" facility, but it's never occurred to me to use it to report such a comment and I wouldn't in the future. Contributors are anonymous. People who've made the comments don't give names, date, airline, company, victim etc
We'll have to agree to differ about the value of reporting such claims - either to PPRuNe or to the company.
"the requirements needed to take up a post where maturity and responsibility are a must."
That's about as realistic as if I tried to persuade you that the requirements to be a lawyer are such that no immature or irresponsible people get through. All jobs, no exceptions, have such people and further, IMHO, we're all capable of behaving immaturely and/or irresponsibly on occasions. The attitudes displayed by some cabin attendants in CC forum discussions about pilots do nothing to make me think it's inconceivable that such behaviour could occur. Similarly, although I haven't seen the post in the BASSA forum, if it's correctly quoted, it doesn't suggest that the 'maturity and responsibility' aspect of CC recruitment is infallible - even if the comment wasn't meant seriously.
I stress - I'm simply an unbiased outsider observing the discussion. I don't claim to know if such behaviour actually occurs or whether they are just the comments of irresponsible and immature people.
On the other hand, I am in a position to express an opinion about whether there is any point in reporting imprecise comments/claims made about some incident on some unknown day in the past, and I think Rainboe is being more realistic than you.
I have no reason to disbelieve you but, with respect, your various posts on this thread give me the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that you are reluctant to accept something you haven't experienced yourself, and that it would be very difficult for anyone to persuade you otherwise.
I have no reason to disbelieve that you, in years of flying "have never, ever once heard anyone admitting or even hinting at something that would be criminal and stupid" - but (for example) Rainboe has.
Yes, I "really have read" similar comments/claims in the CC forum over the years.
Even if I had the time/inclination to try, and the 'search' function went back more than a year, it would be difficult to find them because the comments I've seen have been made during the course of discussions, not as a topics of their own. From memory, they have usually been contained in what I can best describe as one of those 'Who does he think he is' type posts. (FAs referring to a Captain.)
I'm familiar with the "report to Moderator" facility, but it's never occurred to me to use it to report such a comment and I wouldn't in the future. Contributors are anonymous. People who've made the comments don't give names, date, airline, company, victim etc
We'll have to agree to differ about the value of reporting such claims - either to PPRuNe or to the company.
"the requirements needed to take up a post where maturity and responsibility are a must."
That's about as realistic as if I tried to persuade you that the requirements to be a lawyer are such that no immature or irresponsible people get through. All jobs, no exceptions, have such people and further, IMHO, we're all capable of behaving immaturely and/or irresponsibly on occasions. The attitudes displayed by some cabin attendants in CC forum discussions about pilots do nothing to make me think it's inconceivable that such behaviour could occur. Similarly, although I haven't seen the post in the BASSA forum, if it's correctly quoted, it doesn't suggest that the 'maturity and responsibility' aspect of CC recruitment is infallible - even if the comment wasn't meant seriously.
I stress - I'm simply an unbiased outsider observing the discussion. I don't claim to know if such behaviour actually occurs or whether they are just the comments of irresponsible and immature people.
On the other hand, I am in a position to express an opinion about whether there is any point in reporting imprecise comments/claims made about some incident on some unknown day in the past, and I think Rainboe is being more realistic than you.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 21st Apr 2006 at 14:42.
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Well, after reading all this about a moaning old pilot and supposedly some murderers to be cabin crew , i had a good old laugh!!! but saying that , working for the said company as EF cabin crew , i am not surprised at all about this story ! We all know that in any airlines, i mean ANY, there is bitterness and jealousy from one department to another i.e : ground staff vs flying staff , cabin staff vs flight desk ........
This kind of attitude can be encountered from time to time and it shows how some people are very small( and i have no time for them!!! )
As someone said earlier on , there are bad apples out there but saying that ?most of the people i work with have a very decent attitude , they are respectful and respected! Unfortunately you need one person to write a letter , and he has set fire to the powder!
What the guy who wrote the letter should know that, we all work together , obviously he doesn't know ! I am sure the said company likes to see its staff divided!
i will end this post up with a french saying: divided you lose, together you win!
This kind of attitude can be encountered from time to time and it shows how some people are very small( and i have no time for them!!! )
As someone said earlier on , there are bad apples out there but saying that ?most of the people i work with have a very decent attitude , they are respectful and respected! Unfortunately you need one person to write a letter , and he has set fire to the powder!
What the guy who wrote the letter should know that, we all work together , obviously he doesn't know ! I am sure the said company likes to see its staff divided!
i will end this post up with a french saying: divided you lose, together you win!
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The actual point of the letter..
The actual point of the letter was that BA's crewing for EF CC is dreadfully innefficient and that if it was improved there would be less need for new recruitment and thus a saving to all of BA. There was no criticism of Cabin Crew or their agreements - it was a criticism of BA mis-management generally and IFS-crewing in particular. Many Cabin Crew have been upset about it but nobody has disproved the central point - and until you do that point still has credibility.
As for the unfortunate comments on Bassa - they are akin to joking about having a bomb in your bag as you go thru security at Kennedy - in another time it might be funny but not now.
As for the unfortunate comments on Bassa - they are akin to joking about having a bomb in your bag as you go thru security at Kennedy - in another time it might be funny but not now.
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In bygone days I used to have quite a number of inebriated (NON BA) FA’s frequent my bar. I was aghast the first time that I heard a FA boasting about dropping eyedrops in the Captains coffee, the stories continued to include washing their fruit in the lavatory and sprinkling cigarette ash on the salad. They always did it just before descent into London so that the Captain was sick during the layover, they also reckoned that he could land safely prior to getting sick.
Were they boasting or joking? I have no idea.
Mutt
Were they boasting or joking? I have no idea.
Mutt
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Oh Dear.
Strangely, I have sympathy with Cabin Crew's alleged actions, crazy though they may be, given their embedded resentment of Flight Deck. (Massive generalization, I know).
The resentment is bred from mis-guided CRM trainers, who convince the semi-skilled and comparatively unqualified CC that they are the professional equals of FD, in safety matters and in general. This is nonsense, but is fed as doctrine to a group of people who are paid a fraction of the salary of FD. (I believe CC may be somewhat underpaid, but this is a personal viewpoint.) Outcome....resentment and heightened sensitivity to perceived slights/insults/officiousness by the pilots.
Thus, when problems arise in the air between FD and CC, real or imagined, the CC is in an ideal position to get their own back. Spoiling the "demanded" food or drink is so easy. And talked about so often. An attack of diarrhoea in a pilot is hardly an incapacitation, but if a diversion and subsequent night-stop is the outcome, well so what? More allowances, and another night away. Childish, yes, but understandable. Sadly risky also. Even dangerous.
The fault of these poor CC members lies with the CC trainers (well, some of them, by no means all), and these influential people are unlikely to modify their attitudes. Why should they? A fatal accident is unlikely to result, when all is said and done. Maturity of the CC trainers is the main hope, but I see little to convince me that this ridiculous problem will not continue. And a change in FDs' behaviour is unlikely, given the nature of the personality required to do the job.
Sorry, no answers, maybe just some thoughts to help improve this stupid situation.
The resentment is bred from mis-guided CRM trainers, who convince the semi-skilled and comparatively unqualified CC that they are the professional equals of FD, in safety matters and in general. This is nonsense, but is fed as doctrine to a group of people who are paid a fraction of the salary of FD. (I believe CC may be somewhat underpaid, but this is a personal viewpoint.) Outcome....resentment and heightened sensitivity to perceived slights/insults/officiousness by the pilots.
Thus, when problems arise in the air between FD and CC, real or imagined, the CC is in an ideal position to get their own back. Spoiling the "demanded" food or drink is so easy. And talked about so often. An attack of diarrhoea in a pilot is hardly an incapacitation, but if a diversion and subsequent night-stop is the outcome, well so what? More allowances, and another night away. Childish, yes, but understandable. Sadly risky also. Even dangerous.
The fault of these poor CC members lies with the CC trainers (well, some of them, by no means all), and these influential people are unlikely to modify their attitudes. Why should they? A fatal accident is unlikely to result, when all is said and done. Maturity of the CC trainers is the main hope, but I see little to convince me that this ridiculous problem will not continue. And a change in FDs' behaviour is unlikely, given the nature of the personality required to do the job.
Sorry, no answers, maybe just some thoughts to help improve this stupid situation.
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These are the same CC trainers that teach the new entrant CC to remember the extinguisher locations in the flight deck of a 757 by.... "Water behind the W*nk*r and BCF behind the B*rst*rd".
Perhaps I'm of a different generation but I object to such practises, am I wrong?
No wonder when the new CC they get on line they have already been indoctrinated.
Perhaps I'm of a different generation but I object to such practises, am I wrong?
No wonder when the new CC they get on line they have already been indoctrinated.
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Roy Hudd & Woodpecker
Friends in the industry (mainly pilots) have made similar comments.
Do you think the attitude has become worse over the years?
I ask because, in a recent conversation with a CSD who's been with BA for about 20 years, she said younger CC tended to have a very different attitude from those of her 'generation.' I quote: "an over-inflated opinion of our status." In her view, management policies encouraged that notion and were partly to blame for the problem.
Do you think companies -
- do enough to resolve the problem?
- ignore it because it's so embedded there's nothing they can really do to change it?
- ignore it because they regard division amongst various groups as being to management advantage?
Friends in the industry (mainly pilots) have made similar comments.
Do you think the attitude has become worse over the years?
I ask because, in a recent conversation with a CSD who's been with BA for about 20 years, she said younger CC tended to have a very different attitude from those of her 'generation.' I quote: "an over-inflated opinion of our status." In her view, management policies encouraged that notion and were partly to blame for the problem.
Do you think companies -
- do enough to resolve the problem?
- ignore it because it's so embedded there's nothing they can really do to change it?
- ignore it because they regard division amongst various groups as being to management advantage?
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 21st Apr 2006 at 23:59.