eirjet A320 LANDS AT WRONG AIRPORT!
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I can understand how this happened - the lure of a lump of tarmac exactly where you are expecting it to be (almost) - "We must be right, look there it is!" etc... But a trivial question: Who updates Eirjet's EGPWS? As far as I know, the one fitted to our planes would start to really object if you tried to land at a "non-airfield". Maybe the Irish CAA oversight people might like to comment as to their fitness to hold their positions. And what is the status of the rest EI registered aircraft flogging around the world? Probably very similar if this is the level of their oversight. And as EGPWS is a required fit, maybe all EI registered aircraft should be grounded until it is verified that they meet all relevant requirements and are fit to fly?
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With correct inbound ils course selected for rwy,corresponding to programmed fmc arrival rwy then the egpws will not object to where you put it down.you will have what appears to be a map shift( big tell tale if you have gps nav), but your visual and looking out-...perhaps a little system study...and as stated earlier..please put fingers away...
plus your comments reflecting irish standards...dont deserve a reply
plus your comments reflecting irish standards...dont deserve a reply
Just a numbered other
Basic DR navigation and map reading is among the fundamentals of navigation skills.
But not used on the flight deck of a modern airliner.
No paper maps available and 5miles is so small an error that DR nav would not pick it up.
Lucky to avoid FOD. Perhaps a blood alcohol test may have been in order
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As alluded to the A 320 will dump the airport when TOGA is set on the go around. The data is still there, just strung out after the missed approach. But, the airport and runway will NOT be displayed on the ND unless the "airports" is selected on the EFIS controller, and then all the airports in the database will be displayed.
So, when they returned in the pattern, all they would have displayed on their NDs would be the missed approach unless they cleared the miss out of the FMGC in which case they would have had all the approach data again as it is there, just after the miss.
As far as ATCO, I don't believ they need to SEE an aircraft to clear it to land.
So, when they returned in the pattern, all they would have displayed on their NDs would be the missed approach unless they cleared the miss out of the FMGC in which case they would have had all the approach data again as it is there, just after the miss.
As far as ATCO, I don't believ they need to SEE an aircraft to clear it to land.
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Originally Posted by wheelbarrow
With correct inbound ils course selected for rwy,corresponding to programmed fmc arrival rwy then the egpws will not object to where you put it down.you will have what appears to be a map shift( big tell tale if you have gps nav), but your visual and looking out-...perhaps a little system study...and as stated earlier..please put fingers away...
plus your comments reflecting irish standards...dont deserve a reply
plus your comments reflecting irish standards...dont deserve a reply
Its supposed to warn if you drop below a specified profile during descent toward the runway. It may not have triggered since the airports are close together, or perhaps it was actually satisfied that the landing runway was BallyKelly? That might be a weakness in the system then.
It is not the same as the terrain/GPWS function.
Read here.
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And if they didn't reload the approach, the airplane wouldn't know where it was supposed to be going....so EGPWS may not have been a help here.
Go arounds are a busy time. PF would be depending on the skill strengths of the PNF here to reload the approach into the FMGC. If the PNF was new, low time, or not to sharp at that (infrequently used) skill the PF may have elected to fly it without the map and approach loaded, which as it turns out is one item in the error chain.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
Go arounds are a busy time. PF would be depending on the skill strengths of the PNF here to reload the approach into the FMGC. If the PNF was new, low time, or not to sharp at that (infrequently used) skill the PF may have elected to fly it without the map and approach loaded, which as it turns out is one item in the error chain.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
I call you back
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As alluded to the A 320 will dump the airport when TOGA is set on the go around.
As for the EGPWS and various other systems our speculation is pretty moot given we have no idea of the serviceabilty of these or others aids on the flight in question. For example if RA 1 was u/s.
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Why on godīs good earth would you like to program an approach anyway. New or experienced PNF, doesnīt matter, do you really want to be inside on the typewriter while your collegue is flying a visual pattern. What about looking outside for other traffic, or perhaps the runway for landing? I just donīt understand why so many people here seem to think that loading the fms would have saved the day. That is not what the thing is for. It is a device to fly from A to B (basically designed to save fuel) and has nothing to do with flying a circuit.
Ok let the bashing begin.....
Ok let the bashing begin.....
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All you have to do is clear out the missed approach, as the approach is in there again after the miss. Takes about 5 seconds if you know what you are doing.
Why would you want to?
Well, maybe having the runway displayed on your ND might prevent you from landing at the wrong airport? Plus it gives you either the ILS if working or an internally generated approach path or an RNAV approach if that had been selected.
Sure, we have all flown in airplanes without moving maps etc., but it is a barrier to prevent wrong airports and wrong runways. You don't have to do it, but if you don't do it, then all the discussion of why couldn't the guy see on his map it was the wrong place is moot as it wouldn't be displayed.
Why would you want to?
Well, maybe having the runway displayed on your ND might prevent you from landing at the wrong airport? Plus it gives you either the ILS if working or an internally generated approach path or an RNAV approach if that had been selected.
Sure, we have all flown in airplanes without moving maps etc., but it is a barrier to prevent wrong airports and wrong runways. You don't have to do it, but if you don't do it, then all the discussion of why couldn't the guy see on his map it was the wrong place is moot as it wouldn't be displayed.
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Fortuna76.
I agree 100%. It's positively scary that there are so many posts on this thread displaying an encyclopaedic knowledge of FMS functions but so little basic airmanship. OK, I'm an old-school dinosaur but visual flying is heads-up.
I agree 100%. It's positively scary that there are so many posts on this thread displaying an encyclopaedic knowledge of FMS functions but so little basic airmanship. OK, I'm an old-school dinosaur but visual flying is heads-up.
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EGPWS Terrain Floor mode doesn't care where you think you are going- it has its own position information, and will give warnings if you seem to be landing anywhere that it does not recognise as an airfield- this can be embarrassing if you land at a new runway (a newly built one, not just one you haven't used before) at an existing destination. In fact, to prevent Terrain Floor mode from giving an alert, you have to manually disable it. However, if the database of the aircraft in question included the runway at Ballkelly, it would give no alerts whatsoever.
B.S.
Gentlefolk,
An interesting discussion but really a lot of the above mentioned being spread. To the aerobatic chap who thinks you navigate a large jet by looking a a vfr map and lats and longs...You don't. Know you mean well but its just a stupid comment, accept and move on. You watch the aeroplane, the runway and each other, not pretend you are back in your ppl days. Its like trying to predict the critical mach no. of a C172, just amazingly irrelevant.
Piltdown man, if you wish to criticise the "Irish CAA", (its called the IAA, figure it out), then you are welcome but if you are trying to inject a bit of paddy bashing then you know where to go. Irish aviation is among the best and safest in the world, not because of the IAA and its "leave M O'Leary alone" attitude but of the high standards of Irish crews. If that was your intention then perhaps you should stick to your Daily Mail and ranting about asylum seekers over your cornflakes.
The comments about a blood test is just nasty.
A few more helpful comments, it might be a good idea if the British military stopped pretending that Ballykelly is disused, it is active and seems to have a set of runway lights.
It might also help if the UK marked as an aerodrome with a 6000 ft runway and not a helipad as they do.
Good point on the 60 minute report. We can manage with less most days but a new airport requires extra time and operators don't give it. How about forcing them- regulators?
There but for the grace of God go I...
An interesting discussion but really a lot of the above mentioned being spread. To the aerobatic chap who thinks you navigate a large jet by looking a a vfr map and lats and longs...You don't. Know you mean well but its just a stupid comment, accept and move on. You watch the aeroplane, the runway and each other, not pretend you are back in your ppl days. Its like trying to predict the critical mach no. of a C172, just amazingly irrelevant.
Piltdown man, if you wish to criticise the "Irish CAA", (its called the IAA, figure it out), then you are welcome but if you are trying to inject a bit of paddy bashing then you know where to go. Irish aviation is among the best and safest in the world, not because of the IAA and its "leave M O'Leary alone" attitude but of the high standards of Irish crews. If that was your intention then perhaps you should stick to your Daily Mail and ranting about asylum seekers over your cornflakes.
The comments about a blood test is just nasty.
A few more helpful comments, it might be a good idea if the British military stopped pretending that Ballykelly is disused, it is active and seems to have a set of runway lights.
It might also help if the UK marked as an aerodrome with a 6000 ft runway and not a helipad as they do.
Good point on the 60 minute report. We can manage with less most days but a new airport requires extra time and operators don't give it. How about forcing them- regulators?
There but for the grace of God go I...
Last edited by Consol; 31st Mar 2006 at 20:38.
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Typically something like this is the result of many small things all going wrong.
Basic airmanship is what keeps us up there. Putting as many barriers to the error chain in place keeps things like this from happening. The investigators will probably find a number of factors that caused this to happen.
Things like:
Poor approach briefing (not covering nearby airport if in the notes)
Lack of familiarity with the airport
time pressure, either on time performance or a rush to get there
distractions, flight attendants always call in the middle of this to ask what is going on
failure to follow procedures for on board nav systems
failure to verify with nav systems that runway is correct.
experience in type
lack of proper rest
Answer may include all of these, some of these, or none of these, that is what investigations are for. Any of these or plenty of others could contribute. Usually any one of the failures that is caught can prevent the incident.
That is why you set up an ILS for your landing runway, even if it is VFR. Why you load the runway in the FMGC for an approach even VFR, why we do approach briefings. Nobody out there is above mistaking the wrong runway for the one you are supposed to land on. But it is usually something that is caught a few seconds later when you realize the airport is supposed to be over there, or you are still 15 DME on the localiser etc. Guys in Cubs read the city name on the water tower....
Everything you can do that could prevent a mistake is a barrier to that potential mistake. That is why we follow procedures and verify things.
I will not judge these pilots without a true knowledge of the facts of the situation. My original post was to point out that in the A 320 after a go around the runway is no longer displayed on the ND unless they did clear out the missed approach.
Basic airmanship is what keeps us up there. Putting as many barriers to the error chain in place keeps things like this from happening. The investigators will probably find a number of factors that caused this to happen.
Things like:
Poor approach briefing (not covering nearby airport if in the notes)
Lack of familiarity with the airport
time pressure, either on time performance or a rush to get there
distractions, flight attendants always call in the middle of this to ask what is going on
failure to follow procedures for on board nav systems
failure to verify with nav systems that runway is correct.
experience in type
lack of proper rest
Answer may include all of these, some of these, or none of these, that is what investigations are for. Any of these or plenty of others could contribute. Usually any one of the failures that is caught can prevent the incident.
That is why you set up an ILS for your landing runway, even if it is VFR. Why you load the runway in the FMGC for an approach even VFR, why we do approach briefings. Nobody out there is above mistaking the wrong runway for the one you are supposed to land on. But it is usually something that is caught a few seconds later when you realize the airport is supposed to be over there, or you are still 15 DME on the localiser etc. Guys in Cubs read the city name on the water tower....
Everything you can do that could prevent a mistake is a barrier to that potential mistake. That is why we follow procedures and verify things.
I will not judge these pilots without a true knowledge of the facts of the situation. My original post was to point out that in the A 320 after a go around the runway is no longer displayed on the ND unless they did clear out the missed approach.
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Well, my pinch of salt:
Visual approaches are... well... flown visually (yes, I also belong to the ol'school). Basically switch on the FPA/V function to guide you to Terra Firma, look for the tarmac and plonk the craft on it.
So, usually you have 2 pair of eyes scanning the outside world for traffic and runway... and no time to look at a back-up ILS/VOR/NDB, even less so FMS coordinates.
I'm far from perfect, but there is one function of the FMS I will use during all visual approaches, and it is the BEARING/DISTANCE to the threshold of the landing runway. This not only to be sure to it the right bit of concrete, but also to ascertain my distance from said threshold and configure accordingly. There the danger lurks in just not having the time to look at the box (yes aerobatic man, the approach setting in the bigger aluminum tube is slightly more busy than say in your Extra) at all
As for start of duty, being 45' or 1 hour before ETD, neither is sufficient for a full crew brief + go to aeroplane + get aeroplane ready + boarding. Being about 30' ahead of checking time is a (voluntary) standard in companies I have worked for, and permits to start work leisurely, giving one some time to socialize with the chicks
Visual approaches are... well... flown visually (yes, I also belong to the ol'school). Basically switch on the FPA/V function to guide you to Terra Firma, look for the tarmac and plonk the craft on it.
So, usually you have 2 pair of eyes scanning the outside world for traffic and runway... and no time to look at a back-up ILS/VOR/NDB, even less so FMS coordinates.
I'm far from perfect, but there is one function of the FMS I will use during all visual approaches, and it is the BEARING/DISTANCE to the threshold of the landing runway. This not only to be sure to it the right bit of concrete, but also to ascertain my distance from said threshold and configure accordingly. There the danger lurks in just not having the time to look at the box (yes aerobatic man, the approach setting in the bigger aluminum tube is slightly more busy than say in your Extra) at all
As for start of duty, being 45' or 1 hour before ETD, neither is sufficient for a full crew brief + go to aeroplane + get aeroplane ready + boarding. Being about 30' ahead of checking time is a (voluntary) standard in companies I have worked for, and permits to start work leisurely, giving one some time to socialize with the chicks
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Dear Imminent Boner,
I disagree fully with your idea of skipping an investigation. You might be right in saying that the ultimate reason for landing on the wrong piece of concrete was the PF saying, Ļthere it is, letīs go for itĻ. However the events before that, leading the crew into a position from where this mistake could be made are very well worth looking into. Leave no stone unturned, find all the facts, get out the rostering, duty times, preparation times, etc. etc. Then go into the communication which was going on at destination and find out where the breakdown occured. I assure you, it was well before being on downwind!
As well mister/miss Imminent Boner (love that name), what will be in your honest opinion the goal of the investigation. Mine would be to get a real good report available in chirp or the safety bulletins, so we can all try and avoid this on our next duties. However if your aim is to nail these guys....well that is never very hard is it? But there are some good lessons to be learned here and as said before the price is cheap this time. No one harmed and no damage to plane!!
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. Any landing after which you can use the aircraft again is a great landing!
Cheers!
I disagree fully with your idea of skipping an investigation. You might be right in saying that the ultimate reason for landing on the wrong piece of concrete was the PF saying, Ļthere it is, letīs go for itĻ. However the events before that, leading the crew into a position from where this mistake could be made are very well worth looking into. Leave no stone unturned, find all the facts, get out the rostering, duty times, preparation times, etc. etc. Then go into the communication which was going on at destination and find out where the breakdown occured. I assure you, it was well before being on downwind!
As well mister/miss Imminent Boner (love that name), what will be in your honest opinion the goal of the investigation. Mine would be to get a real good report available in chirp or the safety bulletins, so we can all try and avoid this on our next duties. However if your aim is to nail these guys....well that is never very hard is it? But there are some good lessons to be learned here and as said before the price is cheap this time. No one harmed and no damage to plane!!
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. Any landing after which you can use the aircraft again is a great landing!
Cheers!
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No matter what is said by sympathetic wimps, you have to be robust about this. These two "professional pilots" took the money in wages to do a job. The job being to fly from A to B they were not capable of doing so, they ended up at X. They clearly have no navigational skills, no map reading skills and no situational awareness. Two people taking the wages but not able to deliver the goods, pathetic.
Now, all you lilly livered mugs cherping in with, tight turn round times, heavy duty rostering, pressure, a simple mistake, no damage done, no one injured or the wife wouldn't let me shag her last night, is just bollocks. They should be sacked and their licences revoked, they are guilty of at best GROSS PROFESSIONAL INCOMPENTENCE and at worst RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING LIFE. If the CAA had any balls they would be charged accordingly. You make fools of yourselves and the industry by defending them. Mr O'Leary is right, they are nothing more than gloryfied bus drivers. The fact that no one was killed or injuried is in no part due to them. There is no inquiry to wait for, the facts speak for themselves, they didn't declare an emergency, they continued an approach, blissfully unware of where they were, they were quite happy they knew what they were doing or they wouldn't have landed there. NOW RIP INTO ME FOR BEING HONEST.
Now, all you lilly livered mugs cherping in with, tight turn round times, heavy duty rostering, pressure, a simple mistake, no damage done, no one injured or the wife wouldn't let me shag her last night, is just bollocks. They should be sacked and their licences revoked, they are guilty of at best GROSS PROFESSIONAL INCOMPENTENCE and at worst RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING LIFE. If the CAA had any balls they would be charged accordingly. You make fools of yourselves and the industry by defending them. Mr O'Leary is right, they are nothing more than gloryfied bus drivers. The fact that no one was killed or injuried is in no part due to them. There is no inquiry to wait for, the facts speak for themselves, they didn't declare an emergency, they continued an approach, blissfully unware of where they were, they were quite happy they knew what they were doing or they wouldn't have landed there. NOW RIP INTO ME FOR BEING HONEST.
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Too bad a little light hearted joke doesnīt go anymore......sigh
As for the rest, if you feel that you are not interested in the outcome...well donīt read it. But if you look at articles in chirp and other publications you will find that most incidents originate from a mistake made on top of a whole stake of bad situations, like this one! Donīt dismiss it please. It might be interesting!
As for the rest, if you feel that you are not interested in the outcome...well donīt read it. But if you look at articles in chirp and other publications you will find that most incidents originate from a mistake made on top of a whole stake of bad situations, like this one! Donīt dismiss it please. It might be interesting!