Cheap Flights & pilot shortage, Dail Telegraph 27 March
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Danny I'm afraid I have to agree with Joe le Taxi's opinion on Airbus girl's posting. I think this is yet another case of "interpreting the written word in a manner defined by your own attitude or even mood at the time of reading". You appear to know airbus girl and so may have a deeper knowledge of any biases or attitude she may or may not have and so may have formed your interpretation upon that. I have no idea who he or she is at all and in fact had to go back and read her posting after yours and still read it a different way. Basically, reduce the size of the pool and the number of options reduce with it and quite possibly the quality of those remaining options too. 
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Perhaps it's time for all wannabes to realise that it is not just your 'aptitude' to flying that needs to be sharp but also your abilities in other areas such as figuring out how to raise the funds to be able to put yourself at the bottom of the pilot food chain. Maybe I should reword my example and state that the only early to mid-twenties pilots you are going to see flying heavy metal are going to be sponsored cadets and some privileged, moneyed individuals.
Unfortunately, the assertion that because it is so expensive to get your licence in the first place means that only rich people will be able to do so is not realistic. Getting the licence is one thing and we are all tested to the same standards. All it means is that we have all passed the minimum standards as set by the certifying authority. Your bank balance has no effect on your ability to actually learn and qualify for the appropriate licence.
If you are now talking about who can get the best job once the ink is dry on the licence then again, it doesn't matter about your bank balance. Maybe some of you are working for airlines that employ SSTR cadets and that has been your criteria for judging the standards of those pilots. However, do you know so much about all those SSTR pilots that you can state categorically that they are all or the majority are just rich kids with no real interest in the job other than the uniform and below average piloting skills?
I had to wait nearly 15 years until I had a house with enough equity in it so I could remortgage it and pay for the licence. I also had to get a local authority grant to help offset the cost of a type rating on a Bandeirante as I had no money left of my own. You don't have to be rich to figure out that there are more than a few ways to raise the necessary funds. Perhaps you are more angry at the thought of all these newly licenced SSTR pilots getting straight into jets rather than going through the long apprenticeship many of us went through, flying small turboprops and so on in all sorts of weather
At the end of the day, you are trained and have to reach certain minimum standards at each stage of your career and that includes your type rating conversions and subsequent line training. I mentioned in my previous post that I have yet to meet any 'rich' pilot who is below average. Well, in my previous job, the airline was also a TRTO and sold type ratings to anyone who could raise the money and had the minimum requirements. They also offered line training for anyone who felt they needed it to enhance their prospects of getting a job. I was not happy about the prospect of some F/O's paying more than the pax to get to their destination but there was not much I could do about it because of my choice to live in a capitalist society.
Anyway, I once had to ride 'shotgun' for one of these SSTR pilots who was also going to pay for line training. He'd obviously passed the conversion course and had done about 10 sectors with a base trainer and had now been released for line training which is where I came in. This young pilot struggled to even tune a radio and talk at the same time. It was fairly obvious that he was struggling to do the job. He was more interested in the uniform and I believe that it was his father or his family who were pressuring him into the job. Needless to say, he never made it through line training even after getting a second chance.
The point I'm trying to make is that your bank balance doesn't decide if you are and average pilot or not. It is your aptitude. If you are rich and you want to become a pilot then it will probably be easier than it was for you, me or the 99% of all other pilots. At the end of the day, rich or poor, you will have to reach the same standards.
For the time being, the number of jobs available is going to continue to grow which means that the demand for pilots will grow. If the pool shrinks enough then the airlines will have to become more involved in the initial training, just as they used to. SSTR's are just a product of market forces. The competition for the jobs on that bottom rung of the ladder will always fierce and bank balance will never be a determining factor as those with the determination and the ability to think outside the circle will always be able to raise the funds one way or another. I suppose it's part of the natural selection we have all gone through to get to where we are today. Some of us happy and content with our work/lifestyle, others not and looking for greener grass. Just remember back to the way you felt when you got your first paying flying job and again when you got your first paying jet job. What sacrifices did you make to get there even if you are a bit more disillusioned these days?
Unfortunately, the assertion that because it is so expensive to get your licence in the first place means that only rich people will be able to do so is not realistic. Getting the licence is one thing and we are all tested to the same standards. All it means is that we have all passed the minimum standards as set by the certifying authority. Your bank balance has no effect on your ability to actually learn and qualify for the appropriate licence.
If you are now talking about who can get the best job once the ink is dry on the licence then again, it doesn't matter about your bank balance. Maybe some of you are working for airlines that employ SSTR cadets and that has been your criteria for judging the standards of those pilots. However, do you know so much about all those SSTR pilots that you can state categorically that they are all or the majority are just rich kids with no real interest in the job other than the uniform and below average piloting skills?
I had to wait nearly 15 years until I had a house with enough equity in it so I could remortgage it and pay for the licence. I also had to get a local authority grant to help offset the cost of a type rating on a Bandeirante as I had no money left of my own. You don't have to be rich to figure out that there are more than a few ways to raise the necessary funds. Perhaps you are more angry at the thought of all these newly licenced SSTR pilots getting straight into jets rather than going through the long apprenticeship many of us went through, flying small turboprops and so on in all sorts of weather
At the end of the day, you are trained and have to reach certain minimum standards at each stage of your career and that includes your type rating conversions and subsequent line training. I mentioned in my previous post that I have yet to meet any 'rich' pilot who is below average. Well, in my previous job, the airline was also a TRTO and sold type ratings to anyone who could raise the money and had the minimum requirements. They also offered line training for anyone who felt they needed it to enhance their prospects of getting a job. I was not happy about the prospect of some F/O's paying more than the pax to get to their destination but there was not much I could do about it because of my choice to live in a capitalist society.
Anyway, I once had to ride 'shotgun' for one of these SSTR pilots who was also going to pay for line training. He'd obviously passed the conversion course and had done about 10 sectors with a base trainer and had now been released for line training which is where I came in. This young pilot struggled to even tune a radio and talk at the same time. It was fairly obvious that he was struggling to do the job. He was more interested in the uniform and I believe that it was his father or his family who were pressuring him into the job. Needless to say, he never made it through line training even after getting a second chance.
The point I'm trying to make is that your bank balance doesn't decide if you are and average pilot or not. It is your aptitude. If you are rich and you want to become a pilot then it will probably be easier than it was for you, me or the 99% of all other pilots. At the end of the day, rich or poor, you will have to reach the same standards.
For the time being, the number of jobs available is going to continue to grow which means that the demand for pilots will grow. If the pool shrinks enough then the airlines will have to become more involved in the initial training, just as they used to. SSTR's are just a product of market forces. The competition for the jobs on that bottom rung of the ladder will always fierce and bank balance will never be a determining factor as those with the determination and the ability to think outside the circle will always be able to raise the funds one way or another. I suppose it's part of the natural selection we have all gone through to get to where we are today. Some of us happy and content with our work/lifestyle, others not and looking for greener grass. Just remember back to the way you felt when you got your first paying flying job and again when you got your first paying jet job. What sacrifices did you make to get there even if you are a bit more disillusioned these days?
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Originally Posted by HundredPercentPlease
Just to clarify,
A GP registrar earns £46,009.
A hospital registrar earns £41,773.
An eJ SFO earns £35,584, which is not £15,000 more, however bad your maths is.
A GP registrar earns £46,009.
A hospital registrar earns £41,773.
An eJ SFO earns £35,584, which is not £15,000 more, however bad your maths is.
However I was incorrect about the £15k over the registrar hence it was in brackets with a question mark next to it. The true figure is that an easyJet SFO earns over £20k more than a junior doctors starting salary and £8.2k more than a hospital registrar. If you were to compare like with like an easyJet SFO on the TRSS would still earn £10k more than a junior hospital doctor in his first year (£35k plus around £5k in sector payments).
I trust this clarifies any misunderstanding.
Source for salaries;
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=491912006
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I agree with Danny on this.
As the eldest of six children I was fortunate, or unfortunate enough, to get clobbered by a car and spent the compensation gaining a PPL. My somewhat unusual route to a PPL brought my name to the top of Geoff Perrott's in-tray at Cambrian Airways who sponsored me for the rest.
The point I'm making is there is one heck of a lot of luck involved in getting on the ladder. You need 110% commitment to get there. You will need this commitment when you fly for an airline. If you're just flying for the money...forget it and go and get a day job.
We've all been there and I'm speaking as a person who has worked as a roadman(grade2) and stoked boilers to raise money to go flying, prior to the argument I lost with the car.
Good luck chaps/chapesses
MP
As the eldest of six children I was fortunate, or unfortunate enough, to get clobbered by a car and spent the compensation gaining a PPL. My somewhat unusual route to a PPL brought my name to the top of Geoff Perrott's in-tray at Cambrian Airways who sponsored me for the rest.
The point I'm making is there is one heck of a lot of luck involved in getting on the ladder. You need 110% commitment to get there. You will need this commitment when you fly for an airline. If you're just flying for the money...forget it and go and get a day job.
We've all been there and I'm speaking as a person who has worked as a roadman(grade2) and stoked boilers to raise money to go flying, prior to the argument I lost with the car.
Good luck chaps/chapesses
MP
Scottie, I think the Scotsman newspaper might not have painted the full picture. Have a close look at the following NHS information - note that you can earn right up to £169k with time.
You are doing well, sir. My SFO income is around £41k total.
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nhs-kno...data/5340.html
You are doing well, sir. My SFO income is around £41k total.
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nhs-kno...data/5340.html
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Originally Posted by HundredPercentPlease
Scottie, I think the Scotsman newspaper might not have painted the full picture. Have a close look at the following NHS information - note that you can earn right up to £169k with time.
You are doing well, sir. My SFO income is around £41k total.
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nhs-kno...data/5340.html
You are doing well, sir. My SFO income is around £41k total.
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nhs-kno...data/5340.html
Had a look at the link and yes £169k is achieveable in the NHS. However there are certain top jobs in aviation where you can earn money close to that. Top scale BA £127k plus allowances will take you close.
The point wasn't about easyJet just that the salary of a pilot is still a good salary considering the average wage is £24k.
If you're after money neither NHS or Aviations is the thing to be in. A mate in software sales made £2m and is now retired in his thirties
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Originally Posted by Scottie
Well as an easyJet SFO I earnt about £50k last year which puts me well above the salary of a hospital registrar.
However I was incorrect about the £15k over the registrar hence it was in brackets with a question mark next to it. The true figure is that an easyJet SFO earns over £20k more than a junior doctors starting salary and £8.2k more than a hospital registrar. If you were to compare like with like an easyJet SFO on the TRSS would still earn £10k more than a junior hospital doctor in his first year (£35k plus around £5k in sector payments).
I trust this clarifies any misunderstanding.
However I was incorrect about the £15k over the registrar hence it was in brackets with a question mark next to it. The true figure is that an easyJet SFO earns over £20k more than a junior doctors starting salary and £8.2k more than a hospital registrar. If you were to compare like with like an easyJet SFO on the TRSS would still earn £10k more than a junior hospital doctor in his first year (£35k plus around £5k in sector payments).
I trust this clarifies any misunderstanding.
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I'm not going to get dragged into this arguement about pay. Suffice to say the wage of the average jet commercial pilot is still a very good one.
The job itself still provides a good career and suffers from the pressures put on all careers this century.
Here endeth my contribution!
The job itself still provides a good career and suffers from the pressures put on all careers this century.
Here endeth my contribution!
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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I think that one part of the point that Airbus Girl made has been missed. In the most part, what Danny says is correct, you don’t get a professional licence unless you reach the appropriate standard, similarly when in the job you don’t pass the LST, subsequent OPC’s and LPC’s unless you’re competent. However, there must be many people, and I know several, who having reached the required standard who then can’t afford to live and (probably) support a family (having already borrowed/mortgaged to the limit) on the salaries that airlines pay to “junior” FO’s (especially the TP operators). Certainly being “rich” helps with that……
You can argue that you should know what you’re letting yourself into from the beginning, but it doesn’t always work that way. I thought that I’d been very generous with my allocated budget to get me to where I am now, but I still spent more to stay current, renewing IR’s, FIC course and the like. I’ve been flying the line for nearly a year now, and I’m loving every minute of it, I just wish that I didn’t have to work on my standby days and days off as a consultant engineer in order to service my loans and support my family. I’m lucky that I’m able to do that, many others aren’t so lucky….. being “rich” would help with that.
You can argue that you should know what you’re letting yourself into from the beginning, but it doesn’t always work that way. I thought that I’d been very generous with my allocated budget to get me to where I am now, but I still spent more to stay current, renewing IR’s, FIC course and the like. I’ve been flying the line for nearly a year now, and I’m loving every minute of it, I just wish that I didn’t have to work on my standby days and days off as a consultant engineer in order to service my loans and support my family. I’m lucky that I’m able to do that, many others aren’t so lucky….. being “rich” would help with that.
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Danny - with due respect I must take issue with your initial reply to Airbus Girl's post. 'Rich' was perhaps used inappropriately but the point she made was perfectly valid and logical and Wing Commander Fowler and Joe le Taxi were able to see that. I find it inconceivable that you can disagree with her point : that by adding the cost of an SSTR to the total training budget that a self-funded pilot has to finance, then the pool of suitably qualified self sponsored applicants will reduce! The means by which the funding is found is immaterial ( I don't interpret Airbus Girl's post as critical of those persons born into comfortable/wealthy families - after all, they don't get a great deal of say in the matter do they!!!) - it must surely follow that if the amount of funding required to self-sponsor increases, so the number of persons able to obtain said funding must decrease. I sincerely believe that to be the thrust of the post and I for one, agree wholeheartedly. Please correct me Airbus Girl, if I have misinterpretted your post. Also, it is quite preposterous and indeed disingenuous, to suggest that A320 Girl was implying a negative correlation between wealth and piloting ability. Over to you........
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Originally Posted by Scottie
I prefer to see my cup as half full rather than half empty.
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Left school 18 studied US Comm Inst Multi prior going to US. (hour is an hour wherever obtained US costs low). Exams taken immediately, fly average three hrs per day to minimise course time/cost on loan of 8 grand. Approx four months. With lucky connection + Com/multi/inst F/O job in ME on CV. Build multi turbine,glass cockpit time, repay loan, study ATPL. Return to UK with 1,200 hrs. Study and take ATPL with money saved in ME. Heaviest costs there.Lucky interview with Charter Co. Low twenties RH seat 320.
Not wealthy but loan, planning ahead, connection for first job, and luck/ right place right time all a part. Exam and flying in UK prohibitively expensive.
Not wealthy but loan, planning ahead, connection for first job, and luck/ right place right time all a part. Exam and flying in UK prohibitively expensive.
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Appears also to be a decline in GA. An interesting presentation from the CAA here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1/Trends%2...n%20201205.pdf
This can only make the current shortage greater in the long run.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1/Trends%2...n%20201205.pdf
This can only make the current shortage greater in the long run.
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Pilot Shortage
I started a thread back in Jan 2005 about The Demise of the Professional Pilots Profession.
Reading posts since then and this thread sums it up for many, especially Shortfinalfreds post 31 March.
Every airline I have been in had pay cuts, reduction in conditions, and lost of a day off a week as the companies profits were down.
Management did not do any more work or take a pay cut during these periods.
When things improved our pay and conditions didnt, nor did we get any backpay for the loss in earnings or the extra amount worked.
So imagine my dismay when I joined a countries national airline (not a so called legacy carrier) flying wide bodied jets I thought those days were behind me. Yet about 4 years ago a new CEO was brought in to turn the airline around. He wasnt smart enough to increase revenues, he just cut costs by reducing the pay, allowances, staff, and increased the duties hours up to maximums. Many ot those that had the experience left. Then the CEO departed with a huge bonus on top of his ridiculous salary to let someone else sort out the mess.
The original thread was about a so called pilot shortage, and I guess many hope this will improve pay and conditions that were slashed in recent years.
I believe this will only happen if it is a sustained real pilot shortage, as when our airline had a pilot shortage by many leaving due to the contempt they recieved from management, and resulting cuts to everyones signed contracts, it simply meant those remaining had to work maximum hours to compensate, and pressure was put on pilots to go into discretion regularly when rostered right up to max hours and a slight delay put them over.
So a short term pilot shortage will only mean you will have to work longer hours to operate the existing schedules.
If it was a serious long term shortage, maybe things will improve temporarily until the shortage is over, then these greedy managers and airlines owners will be back to their usual tricks, as the know they can get away with it now, and until we see some serious accidents as a result of fatigue etc the spineless CAAs of the world will sit back and do nothing as they are now.
I believe it is easier to get a job on a jet now, in the older days many had to build hours instructing, charter or turboprops.
Now you can get on a B737, A320 with fewer hours, but once you build up jet hours on these aircraft you still have to problem of trying to get into a reasonable airline with a mix of good pay, good conditions and sufficient time off to spend time with you family etc.
In fact with many so called legacy carriers reducing their fleets, especially there narrow body fleets, it may be harder to get in. How many of you would be happy to fly your B737, A320 working max hours until retirement at 60 or 65 years. Where are you all planning to go once you have built up your flying hours.
MAS is offloading 20 or so B737s and giving the routes to low cost air Asia.
Reading posts since then and this thread sums it up for many, especially Shortfinalfreds post 31 March.
Every airline I have been in had pay cuts, reduction in conditions, and lost of a day off a week as the companies profits were down.
Management did not do any more work or take a pay cut during these periods.
When things improved our pay and conditions didnt, nor did we get any backpay for the loss in earnings or the extra amount worked.
So imagine my dismay when I joined a countries national airline (not a so called legacy carrier) flying wide bodied jets I thought those days were behind me. Yet about 4 years ago a new CEO was brought in to turn the airline around. He wasnt smart enough to increase revenues, he just cut costs by reducing the pay, allowances, staff, and increased the duties hours up to maximums. Many ot those that had the experience left. Then the CEO departed with a huge bonus on top of his ridiculous salary to let someone else sort out the mess.
The original thread was about a so called pilot shortage, and I guess many hope this will improve pay and conditions that were slashed in recent years.
I believe this will only happen if it is a sustained real pilot shortage, as when our airline had a pilot shortage by many leaving due to the contempt they recieved from management, and resulting cuts to everyones signed contracts, it simply meant those remaining had to work maximum hours to compensate, and pressure was put on pilots to go into discretion regularly when rostered right up to max hours and a slight delay put them over.
So a short term pilot shortage will only mean you will have to work longer hours to operate the existing schedules.
If it was a serious long term shortage, maybe things will improve temporarily until the shortage is over, then these greedy managers and airlines owners will be back to their usual tricks, as the know they can get away with it now, and until we see some serious accidents as a result of fatigue etc the spineless CAAs of the world will sit back and do nothing as they are now.
I believe it is easier to get a job on a jet now, in the older days many had to build hours instructing, charter or turboprops.
Now you can get on a B737, A320 with fewer hours, but once you build up jet hours on these aircraft you still have to problem of trying to get into a reasonable airline with a mix of good pay, good conditions and sufficient time off to spend time with you family etc.
In fact with many so called legacy carriers reducing their fleets, especially there narrow body fleets, it may be harder to get in. How many of you would be happy to fly your B737, A320 working max hours until retirement at 60 or 65 years. Where are you all planning to go once you have built up your flying hours.
MAS is offloading 20 or so B737s and giving the routes to low cost air Asia.
Last edited by TDF_380; 4th Apr 2006 at 04:45.
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Why is it that every time the discussion turns to pilot salaries we have to endure pages of piffle about what a doctor/surgeon earns in the NHS?? My next-door neighbour is a GP and I couldn't care less what he earns. My friend is a surgeon and I don't give a fig about his remuneration either (although he can afford to keep his PPL(H) current). But if he were to slip up on the operating table, he'd kill at most, one person. The 747 pilot, however...
So as the jobs are different, let's not try to compare the salaries, please.
So as the jobs are different, let's not try to compare the salaries, please.
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Well I've seen plenty of people losing medicals and instantly their income. I dont see many doctors having that problem. Add to that the constant pressurisation cycles we go through as well as radiation and time zone problems and I feel as if I damn well deserve every penny I get. Especially as the coffee is so bad. Cant even go down Costas!
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Scottie said:
It was you who was comparing apples n pairs.
And rightly so - the resposibility is enormous.
Agreed.
Overstress said:
Amen
Idol
I'm not going to get dragged into this arguement about pay
Suffice to say the wage of the average jet commercial pilot is still a very good one.
The job itself still provides a good career and suffers from the pressures put on all careers this century.
Overstress said:
But if he were to slip up on the operating table, he'd kill at most, one person. The 747 pilot, however...
So as the jobs are different, let's not try to compare the salaries, please.
So as the jobs are different, let's not try to compare the salaries, please.
Idol
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My brother in law is a consultant full time which is a three and a half day week no weekends or nights or earlies full index linked pension earns more on his one day a week private work than I did as an Easyjet captain and is never checked or tested.Hows your pension looking Scottie my 36k was turned into 35k after 5 years with Easy which would have given me a 12k a year pension at 60 which in the UK would pay your electricity bill just.
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Not Orange
Feel free to do a law degree and become a consultant, 5 years at Uni will cost you approx £60k anyway. Will you be happy leafing through small print all day? or would you rather be on a flight deck?
Feel free to do a law degree and become a consultant, 5 years at Uni will cost you approx £60k anyway. Will you be happy leafing through small print all day? or would you rather be on a flight deck?
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Originally Posted by NOT ORANGE
Hows your pension looking Scottie my 36k was turned into 35k after 5 years with Easy which would have given me a 12k a year pension at 60 which in the UK would pay your electricity bill just.