Cheap Flights & pilot shortage, Dail Telegraph 27 March

[fmgc]

BA advertised in thelast edition of flight international. They are most definitely recruiting.

[fortuna76]

I must be in the black book then.....darn

[egsshell]

Originally Posted by fortuna76

Ryanair is still asking 50 GBP to register on their website

Sorry Fortuna but it didn't cost me anything to register or to do the sim ride and they have offered me a job with no up front training costs, just a standard 5 year reducing bond.

[fortuna76]

Egshell,

Was that a direct application with Ryanair or some sub training organisation. I get so confused these days about where you go for what. Fact is that if I go to the Ryanair page and click apply, they tell me it will cost me 50 gbp. Offcourse I have no 1000 hours in the jet so that might be the catch (got 3000 shiny turboprop though, most PIC )

Anyway many congrats on the job, hope you find good times there! They sure as heck need you.

[jondc9]

someone mentioned that low cost carriers were SAFER than (I presume) legacy carriers.

legacy carriers have been around so long that low cost carriers have benefited from safety experience of others while not having to "pay their dues" in learning the hard way.

of course all we have to throw in the mix is HELIOS AIR

regards

jon

[corsair]

I don't know what the situation with egshell is but I heard from senior Ryanair training Captain that the upfront money requirement was on the way out as early as last year. That doesn't mean they won't take their fifty quid for applying! Time will tell anyway.

As for the pilot shortage. There is always a shortage of experienced type rated pilots. Unfortunately it always seems that they need Airbus pilots when you have a 737 rating and vice versa. That's nothing new.

But I think the real shortage will be in the flow of wannabees from the flight schools. Let's assume you are a young person in college or just leaving school. You have a vague idea you would like to be an airline pilot. You do some research. None of the big names sponsor pilots anymore so that's out. That will put off many straight away. Next there is the flight school option. When they recover from the dead faint at seeing the fees that will eliminate a lot more. Then they research the job prospects. They might look here at PPruNe and see the reality. No guarantee of a job, years waiting for the job to come up, more money laid out to get a type rating, long hours and bad rosters.

After all that all you have left are the sad characters like me and you who want to fly at all costs and will let nothing stop us not even the loss of our dignity and personal life. The trouble is that there isn't enough of us. In the past not all pilots were starry eyed kids building model gliders, gazing at the clouds in the ethereal blue sky and wishing they could fly right now. I visited a friend at one well know flight school a while ago. Most students were self sponsored and at least in the late twenties early thirties with mostly established careers who decided to throw it in for the dream. If that is the main source of pilots into the future there has to be a shortage.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

corsair,

I think when you say:

"But I think the real shortage will be in the flow of wannabees from the flight schools"

you could well be right. Unless there is an incentive for people in their early 20's to go into the industry, you could be left with only the out and out diehards. Those who will sacrifice absolutely everything to see their dream through are however not the majority. Many (and as it turned out me included) have their limits beyond which they simply will not go. So who knows, large scale old style sponsorship may return for the Nigels and Nigelas.

However, as all the old wise pundits correctly pointed out back in 2001 when the industry pretty much went into a short period of free fall, the aviation industry is cyclical. It has been boom and bust for as long as I can remember.

Even now without any sign of an obvious bust on the horizon - just consider one big European operator with say 400 or 500 pilots going to the wall. Result: all demand from Ryanair and Easyjet soaked up for at least a year. Consider a bunch of operators scaling back to survive onslaught of loco's and it might add up to the same thing.

[touchingthevoid]

Interesting comments Corsair.

I am one of the early thirties self sponsored Fatpl types. Its a long wait job hunting, but on the positive side a lot of my pals hve recently landed jobs all be it they have had to pay another 20-25K for a type rating and accept rubbish terms. In a few years they will be able to get a decent salary and some respect back. I will do it the long and hard way and do some instructing to get my hours up and see where that takes me.

It would be nice to think at some time in the future there will be a pilot shortage, maybe we will get a bit more respect from airline managers then.. economics...works both ways.

[ShortfinalFred]

I think that you can safely assume that any "respect" culture is dead in the airline business. Shortage or not, 99.9% of airline management hold flightcrew in UTTER contempt. It's no longer a rational career option and, on present conditions, it is now only the preserve of those who are irrationally committed to the idea of flying for a living.

The mismatch between the position of trust held by flightcrew and the efforts required to get it, and the treatement meeted-out to the holders of positions of that trust, has never been so severe. I expect no improvement whatsoever, indeed I think it can only get worse. Relations at our employer are now beyond disbelief, but we still have a way to go to catch up with "the market leader" Ry@nair. Our new CEO is set fair upon the path to catching-up, however, and as a fellow citizen of the Emerald Isle, he has studied their methods closely. I fully expect relations at our company to collapse in a heap of mutual loathing anytime soon.

And this is called a "career" - what a sad joke that phrase has become! My colleagues from University days have "careers", and very lucrative ones now too. They enjoy them and are treated with considerable respect. Here in aviation on the other hand...............and I can no longer say I enjoy it as each year brings more cuts and "givebacks" in terms and conditions accompanied by treatment that would not be out of place in a third-rate borstal, a fine mix of bullying and condesencion. Good luck to all.

My guess for the future is that airlines will be "offshoring" flightcrew jobs anytime soon and using the leverage gained thereby to hammer down remuneration packages through the floor. Anyone "investing" good money in joining todays industry is in for a series of ever-more corrosive disappointments. Just read the Ryan@air threads to see where we are all going to HAVE to go just to "compete" with these charlatans who hold ALL their employees in contempt, let alone their customers (£15 quid for a wheelchair, was it?). Yeah, the wheelchair episode just about sums up where this ugly business is going, and nothing will stop it.

[Da Dog]

I could not agree more with you SFF. Very well put.

[Scottie]

I prefer to see my cup as half full rather than half empty.

I think what you're describing SFF is Capitalism in it's worst form and this isn't restricted to aviation. All over industry companies are demanding more and more from their employees/professionals. It's capitalisms pursuit of greater effiencies.

I assume you're in BA and if I'm not wrong the top scale that can be achieved is £127,000ish plus allowances for a longhaul skipper? For that kind of money in any other industry/profession you'll work your preverbials off.

The wife is a chartered surveyor working in property taxation for a top UK company and she does very well out of it but she also works a lot harder than me and I do at least 800 hours a year. As I write she's sitting on the couch in the living room working through a job file of which their are six to be completed by Monday and that's a typical weekend. On top of that she has a course of study to complete.

A captain in easyJet earns the same as an NHS consultant, an SFO about £15k more than a hospital doctor (registrar?). Whilst I drank coffee and read the paper in the cruise this morning one of my mates whose a senior manager with Ernst and Young was in the office catching up on work after putting in a 5 day week with a meeting in London on the Friday which involved getting out of bed at 4am and getting home on the last flight north and being home by 10pm. Since he'd missed a day in the office he has to catch up. All for £60k a year and yes within a few years his salary will probably surpass anything I'll ever be able to earn but he'll still work harder and be miserable in his job! I on the other hand enjoy my job.

Having been in aviation for 12 years I've come to realise that a lot of pilots seem to be divorced from the reality of a career in other industries/professions, it always seems to be cushier for others. Perhaps I'd think the same if the wife didn't work.

However aviation is still a good career. It has it's problems but so does every other career.

[Airbus Girl]

Corsair, I agree, and I think this will come back to bite the airlines. The pool of quality people who would have become pilots is reduced to those who can afford it. That means many good people will be missed and many average or below average rich people will end up getting a licence and a job with an airline, purely because they can afford it and can afford to live on the low starting salaries. I am not for one second saying everyone, of course not, but you get my drift?
The airlines should really try and look a little bit further ahead, and reinstate part-sponsorships, etc.
But some airlines have chosen to go down the new MPL route, where new airline first officers will only have had to fly a "real" aircraft (ie. not a sim) for 60 hours.

[Lembrado]

Scottie

Well said. It's nice to see a positive outlook.

I second your comments. My father is a scientist who works far longer hours doing an infinitely more complex job then I ever will.

The lack of perspective in some is startling.


L.

[Gearupandorrf]

To my friend Pontious re: Whinging Aussies

Q: How do you know when BA has landed in Melbourne?
A: You can still hear the whining sound AFTER Engine shutdown.

Been in the UK working for nearly 3 years, and have unfortunately met some of the most closed- minded individuals I can imagine. But anyway, in 3 weeks from now it's back to glorious Melbourne to resume life- and you can sleep at night knowing there's at least one less Foreigner invading your land.

Mate it's a Global economy now- get over it!

Have a nice day now,
Gearup.

[Rainboe]

Well I'm sure we all wish you the best and hope it is the employment heaven and wonderland you expect. Throw another shrimp on the barbie.....I'm sure you will be missed!

[Danny]

The pool of quality people who would have become pilots is reduced to those who can afford it. That means many good people will be missed and many average or below average rich people will end up getting a licence and a job with an airline, purely because they can afford it and can afford to live on the low starting salaries.

I'm sorry Airbus Girl, but I think that is an ill thought out statement. just because someone can 'afford' to become a professional pilot doesn't mean that they are therefore 'rich'.

Being able to afford to train as a professional pilot means that someone has managed to 'raise' the money. Whether they did that by having someone lend them the money or by whatever means still doesn't make them 'rich'. Aside from my own case where I had to wait until I was in my late 30's before I could 'raise' the money to fulfill my ambition, just about every other professional pilot I have ever met, and I mean the vast majority, are not 'rich' and don't have 'rich' families to support them. They either came from the forces, were luckily sponsored in the early days or else like the vast majority of us, used some of their many skills to scrimp, save and work hard until they had enough assets to raise the necessary funds to progress with their training.

Also, to presume that even if they were from 'rich' stock that they were therefore just average or below average is an insult to the vast majority who are in fact not 'rich' but have managed to pass the same exams that you had to to the same standards. You, especially, should know how hard it can be. Getting the licence is only the start. It matters not one iota how 'rich' you are when you are applying for a job. You will remember your own interview with the same company we both worked for (and I'm assuming you are still with them) and I'll bet you a dime to a dollar that no one was bothered about the state of your or your families bank balance. They knew you had a licence and had some turboprop experience. Apart from that all they wanted to know whether they could spend a long day sat next to you.

So, throwing out statements about how only average or below average rich kids will be the next generation of airline pilots is a gross insult. The majority of us are 'average' but certainly not rich or from rich stock. having conducted interviews myself through the PPRuNe Cadet Pilot scheme, not once did anyones social standing or bank balance come into the equation. They had have the licences which set the minimum standard, the personality to fit in and finally, the ability to show us in the simulator that they could cope with the steep learning curve.

There is still a huge pool of licenced wannabe professional pilots out there. There probably will always be a pool and the competition for the jet jobs will always be fierce. Those with experience will fare best. Some in the pool will fall by the wayside, defeated by the pressures that we all had to face when trying to get our first job. Others will persist at all costs and most of them will eventually realise their dreams.

The biggest problems will be 15-20 years after 9/11 when the pool of youngsters who actually want to become pilots will have dropped to well below the demand of qualified pilots by the ever expanding airlines. For many of us, our first visit to the flight deck during a flight was the trigger that started an ambition. No more will we have the same numbers of wide eyed kids full of questions and awe at the array of technology we deal with every day. No more will there be a pool of young people who will have wondered at the beauty we get to see from our 'office windows'. Until PPRuNe came along ten years ago, how many other resources were there for wannabe pilots to get the inside view of our world? Now that we cannot offer the chance to many young kids the thrill of visiting the flight deck while we are at work, thanks to the terrorists and the neddies who dream up the rules, we are reducing the opportunities to get them hooked on the job.

The salaries and the terms and conditions will always fluctuate depending on market forces. Already, as has been pointed out on this thread, companies are again reverting back to bonding as opposed to SSTR's and the like. What we need is a cohesive fraternity that understands that collective agreements are what protect our livelihoods. Just look at the pay and conditions at the airlines where there is a strong union representation. Airbus girl, you know yourself what a weak representation is worth. There will always be those who are against organisation but the figures themselves show where our colleagues fare best. It matters not one iota how successful a company is if the majority of its workforce are unhappy and intimidated and divided through adverse terms and conditions.

So, please reconsider your broad reaching statement about 'rich' pilots. I have yet to meet more than as many as I can count on my fingers who I would consider as having been 'lucky' to have had the right background and family connections and not one of them was below average. As a percentage of all the professional pilots I have been fortunate to meet over the years, I'd put them at about 1%. The other 99% have had to work hard and risk just about everything to raise the money to even get the licence, never mind their first job.

[supergimp]

Well said Danny, I too think that Airbusgirls post was out of order, I had to work very hard to raise the cash from the banks in order to fund a SSTR. I can assure you, I am not rich, and neither are my parents and I have managed to secure a job.

[Joe le Taxi]

I dont think it was out of order at all - Read it closely - I don't think she was saying what either of you claim.

Inevitably, if a pool of eligible applicants is restricted through anything other than ability, then on average, the number of a given quality will go down. Some aspiring pilots will never be able to afford to fund their own training, however motivated they are. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get out more; to deprived areas where 'credit' means borrowing a few reddies from a guy down the pub.

[supergimp]

I am so tired of listening to people belittling others who have used their initiative and brains to get into such a competitive industry, they are all to quick to point the finger and attribute other peoples success down to them paying their way into the industry through having the cash or having rich parents. I think people who adopt this attitude are narrow minded and are aggrieved by their own short comings more often than not. I am not saying most people are like this, it’s just a minority. Sour grapes me thinks.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Originally Posted by Scottie

...in easyJet... an SFO about £15k more than a hospital doctor (registrar?)

Just to clarify,
A GP registrar earns £46,009.
A hospital registrar earns £41,773.
An eJ SFO earns £35,584, which is not £15,000 more, however bad your maths is.