Recent Monarch incident in Gibraltar
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Bengerman
Watched your GA and was slightly surprised, but could not see wind sock at far end, but it was blustery, at least where I was.
Chevvron: Was it actually Algeciras, or is that observation based on my comment that we were much closer to it then I have even seen.
fmgc: where is the notam for the TNG diversions located, please.
Bumz
Chevvron: Was it actually Algeciras, or is that observation based on my comment that we were much closer to it then I have even seen.
fmgc: where is the notam for the TNG diversions located, please.
Bumz
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Of all the years that I have been going there it has never been NOTAMed.
They will not stop you diverting directly to AGP (therefore no need for a NOTAM) but if you do then you will have go AGP-TNG-AGP empty before they will allow you to carry your (bussed) passengers from AGP back tothe UK.
Things were resolved with the Spanish for a while and diverts could go straight to AGP but evidently diplomatic relations are not so good anymore so back to TNG.
They will not stop you diverting directly to AGP (therefore no need for a NOTAM) but if you do then you will have go AGP-TNG-AGP empty before they will allow you to carry your (bussed) passengers from AGP back tothe UK.
Things were resolved with the Spanish for a while and diverts could go straight to AGP but evidently diplomatic relations are not so good anymore so back to TNG.
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By heck, there's a load of twaddle on this thread. Almost as bad as 'The Sun'. The SRA to 09 was bog standard, straight up the recommended track as depicted on the plates, maintaining the correct distance from Algeciras. The trouble started when the pilot initiated his own go-around from just inside 2 miles, having previously reported visual. Can't say any more at the moment - sub judice and all that.
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I was trying to say that in the nicest of ways, but someone has twice deleted my posts. I have serious reservations about discussions on what the pilot was doing observed from the back of a 757 at night in bad weather!
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it felt wrong...even down the back
Rainboe: it felt wrong, the view was wrong, so perhaps it was wrong.....
Sometimes experience tells you it is wrong, so please humour me.
Radarman: Until there was real fact from a relaible source, then the information form the Gibraltar Sun, which was an extract from a CAA document, was the only public information.
However, I did see much more of Algeciras port than I have ever seen from an aircraft.
Totally agree with you re wait and see official comments.
if you are a Gib controller, perhaps a beer in Bianca's, to resolve the world aviation problems.....
fmgc: what a wonderful world we live in.
Bumz
Sometimes experience tells you it is wrong, so please humour me.
Radarman: Until there was real fact from a relaible source, then the information form the Gibraltar Sun, which was an extract from a CAA document, was the only public information.
However, I did see much more of Algeciras port than I have ever seen from an aircraft.
Totally agree with you re wait and see official comments.
if you are a Gib controller, perhaps a beer in Bianca's, to resolve the world aviation problems.....
fmgc: what a wonderful world we live in.
Bumz
Last edited by Bumz_Rush; 28th Mar 2006 at 11:21.
I was not on the Rock during the day in question. Certainly everyone who I have spoken to remarked that the aircraft was over the town/houses at a low altitude - and very noisy - they should know having been here and lived with normal aircraft practices - including missed approached/go arounds.
Anyway maybe Monarch will not be flying to the Rock after November as they are under going some form of review (probably heaved off with the increase in landing fees as well) . Certainly the carriers web site is not accepting bookings beyond November which is unusual on this route.
Maybe Easy Jet can fill the void.
Nivsy
Anyway maybe Monarch will not be flying to the Rock after November as they are under going some form of review (probably heaved off with the increase in landing fees as well) . Certainly the carriers web site is not accepting bookings beyond November which is unusual on this route.
Maybe Easy Jet can fill the void.
Nivsy
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Bumz Rush- I am starting to pick up severe inconsistencies. you said:
1- I can't imagine at night approaching Gib bay from the south you were on anything other than a radar vector
2- So was it a 'problem' that you were VERY close to Algeciras?
3- If you were that close to Algeciras, you were on a wide base leg, so why do you say you were 'much closer to the runway' than usual for the 2 bites for final? It would appear there was not much 'cutting the corner' because you refer to a 90 degree turn to the right. Yet still you say that you were 'too close for a stable approach'? Well, were you too near or too far- which is it?
4- At some stage the aeroplane was on finals and went around. I assume it went around straight ahead to the east and did not do the impossible, a hard right to pass to the west of the Rock right over the town? So what part of town was overflown exactly?
5- The runway is close to the Rock, and buildings come right up to the runway. Was it nothing more than a low go-around that people were startled by? There is not much scope for passing south of the runway during the go-around. Can one say that because it was night and because of the terrain, they poured on all the coals that Messrs. Rolls & Royce could supply- a very noisy low go-around?
Any pilot quickly learns one cannot trust any distance perception at night. You were in the back seat of a 757 on the left, in a right hand circuit. I think it difficult to accurately assess what befell the flight until the FDR is accessed, and for the sake of the crew, a public review of what 'might have happened' is better withheld until the report over the 'incident' is released, or further positive information is officially given. It is just not fair to the crew or the airline to keep on with this speculation.
My first point of concern was as we were "x wind", we would normally be on a Radar heading. ( I do not have the charts in front of me). The first indication of a problem, was that (on the left hand side), I could see Algeceras port, VERY close, then a almost 90 degree turn to the right. We were ( on my side ) VMC, NO real turbulance, but reasonable strong wind. (the GIB plates do warn of turbulance.)
This visual sighting would suggest we were much closer to the runway, that usual, for the two bites at the final turn.
As a result would have been too close for a stable approach.
This visual sighting would suggest we were much closer to the runway, that usual, for the two bites at the final turn.
As a result would have been too close for a stable approach.
2- So was it a 'problem' that you were VERY close to Algeciras?
3- If you were that close to Algeciras, you were on a wide base leg, so why do you say you were 'much closer to the runway' than usual for the 2 bites for final? It would appear there was not much 'cutting the corner' because you refer to a 90 degree turn to the right. Yet still you say that you were 'too close for a stable approach'? Well, were you too near or too far- which is it?
4- At some stage the aeroplane was on finals and went around. I assume it went around straight ahead to the east and did not do the impossible, a hard right to pass to the west of the Rock right over the town? So what part of town was overflown exactly?
5- The runway is close to the Rock, and buildings come right up to the runway. Was it nothing more than a low go-around that people were startled by? There is not much scope for passing south of the runway during the go-around. Can one say that because it was night and because of the terrain, they poured on all the coals that Messrs. Rolls & Royce could supply- a very noisy low go-around?
Any pilot quickly learns one cannot trust any distance perception at night. You were in the back seat of a 757 on the left, in a right hand circuit. I think it difficult to accurately assess what befell the flight until the FDR is accessed, and for the sake of the crew, a public review of what 'might have happened' is better withheld until the report over the 'incident' is released, or further positive information is officially given. It is just not fair to the crew or the airline to keep on with this speculation.
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sorry.....
If I am becoming inconsistant I am very sorry.
To close to Algeciras, was what I said, and I still maintain that I have never looked down on the port, but normally look at it level. We had not started the miss.
I was trying to balance the statements against the instrument approach plate, so thats where the numbers came from.
Lastly, and this is my last input, an early miss is almost silent, even from the side of the runway, where I normally would be located.
If the miss was straight ahead, and over the town it would also be on direct track to the rock.
From now on I will keep my trap shut.....Bumz
To close to Algeciras, was what I said, and I still maintain that I have never looked down on the port, but normally look at it level. We had not started the miss.
I was trying to balance the statements against the instrument approach plate, so thats where the numbers came from.
Lastly, and this is my last input, an early miss is almost silent, even from the side of the runway, where I normally would be located.
If the miss was straight ahead, and over the town it would also be on direct track to the rock.
From now on I will keep my trap shut.....Bumz
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I think it better to leave it to the AAIB to produce a recorder trace than to try and reconstruct the flight here from a view from a cabin seat down the back or the experiences of a regular Gib passenger not even on the flight or witnessing events!
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Bumz, you stated.......
Believe me, it doesn't take much in GIB to generate severe turbulence on short final (hence the low wind limits if it's blowing anywhere near southerly).
Rainboe, you said.......
On a clear night I've gone visual from south of the rock - no probs !
Watched your GA and was slightly surprised
Rainboe, you said.......
I can't imagine at night approaching Gib bay from the south you were on anything other than a radar vector
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Sorry- slip of tongue- not AAIB, just CAA investigation, but I assume the AAIB would be in charge of the rcorder side/ Maybe no.
I assume due proximity with the international border which I would epect would be somewhere between Algeciras and Gib, and the fact that the weather conditions were
a radar vector from the south would have been automatic, so proximity to Algeciras would have been determined by the controller? I'm still looking for a problem here apart from people near the airport being startled by a noisy go-around! There are too many inconsistencies to speculate any further. I really don't like these Pprune Court Martials.
I assume due proximity with the international border which I would epect would be somewhere between Algeciras and Gib, and the fact that the weather conditions were
The problem was very much poor visibility in drizzle hence no point in a second approach and as for the unstable approach comment you have got to be having a laugh.
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Apparently the AAIB have become involved but only because of the military link with the airfield.
As Rainboe has stated:
I have to agree with him and out of respect for my fellow colleagues, it is time for this thread to close until such time as there is some official news.
As Rainboe has stated:
Any pilot quickly learns one cannot trust any distance perception at night. You were in the back seat of a 757 on the left, in a right hand circuit. I think it difficult to accurately assess what befell the flight until the FDR is accessed, and for the sake of the crew, a public review of what 'might have happened' is better withheld until the report over the 'incident' is released, or further positive information is officially given. It is just not fair to the crew or the airline to keep on with this speculation.
