Did an A340 Very Recently Land on a taxiway in Sao Paulo?
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Originally Posted by Krueger
Actually the sun was in front of them and regarding the other contributing factors, this incident doesn't surprise me at all.
Krueger,
if this dosen't suprise u then i'm shocked!
I for 1 can understand how u can get yourself in this position at gru. however if ur told to do a g/a and u don't and u land on a taxiway....... best of luck with the court martial
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Krueger,
Did it happened in the afternoon hours?And why it does not surprise you?Is it only a GRU problem?I'm curious,cuz I've been flying in and out of Gru for many years and can see no major problem operating there (I wouldn't say the same of GIG,which is my home base).
Did it happened in the afternoon hours?And why it does not surprise you?Is it only a GRU problem?I'm curious,cuz I've been flying in and out of Gru for many years and can see no major problem operating there (I wouldn't say the same of GIG,which is my home base).
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Court Martial?
Court Martial????!!!! UUUUhhhhhh!
Aren't you being a little bit over the edge? In the best interest of flight safety, you should avoid this type of finger pointing.
One thing is a mistake and a totally different thing is a violation.
Imagine yourself on the controls, on the same situation, then you hear a controller saying something that you don't understand (for instance, go-around in brazilian portuguese, which is totally different than in portuguese). What would you do?
Thank god you don't belong to any acident investigation team!
Check Six , Krueger...
Aren't you being a little bit over the edge? In the best interest of flight safety, you should avoid this type of finger pointing.
One thing is a mistake and a totally different thing is a violation.
Imagine yourself on the controls, on the same situation, then you hear a controller saying something that you don't understand (for instance, go-around in brazilian portuguese, which is totally different than in portuguese). What would you do?
Thank god you don't belong to any acident investigation team!
Check Six , Krueger...
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krueger,
my point is not that i'd court martial theese chaps but that i'm pretty sure that if the boys landed against atc instructions somebody will get 'nasty' with them.
they have my sympathy and my understanding.
as i said i understand how u could get yourself in this position in gru. i have been to gru many times and i have shot approachs there in awful weather with limited nav aids. that's what we get paid for.
the interesting aspect of this incident is the human factors that led to it. we all make mistakes, period. we have to accept that as professional pilots that we when are held accountable for the decisions we make that sometimes the truth will be that on that particular day and in those particular conditions we were wrong, maybee even negligent.
no matter what other factors come to light in this incident the very fact that this crew elected to land on that taxiway was a very poor decision. if you have been to gru i would be suprised if you thought it was an easy mistake.
i hope that their company shows them understanding when dealing with their case. my point is if the facts show that they landed on a taxiway with atc telling them to g/a i would expect them to be in some trouble.
fox 2.... heavy
my point is not that i'd court martial theese chaps but that i'm pretty sure that if the boys landed against atc instructions somebody will get 'nasty' with them.
they have my sympathy and my understanding.
as i said i understand how u could get yourself in this position in gru. i have been to gru many times and i have shot approachs there in awful weather with limited nav aids. that's what we get paid for.
the interesting aspect of this incident is the human factors that led to it. we all make mistakes, period. we have to accept that as professional pilots that we when are held accountable for the decisions we make that sometimes the truth will be that on that particular day and in those particular conditions we were wrong, maybee even negligent.
no matter what other factors come to light in this incident the very fact that this crew elected to land on that taxiway was a very poor decision. if you have been to gru i would be suprised if you thought it was an easy mistake.
i hope that their company shows them understanding when dealing with their case. my point is if the facts show that they landed on a taxiway with atc telling them to g/a i would expect them to be in some trouble.
fox 2.... heavy
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your statement is based on the fact that they landed knowing that TWR was sending them around. However, that is a point that will be clarified by the investigation. I was made to believe that TWR instructed them to go around in Brazilian portuguese. However, go-around in portuguese is a totally different word.
Check Six, Krueger...
Check Six, Krueger...
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The Afternoon Sun on his tail on 27R?
...It was visual at the time,and someone said something about sun glare which I find very unlikely...remember: rwy 27R in the morning ....the sun would be on his tail...Shocking....
Anybody know the actual flight number/rego?
It's an afternoon arrival, scheduled time 1650LT according to TAP's site.
Conditions an hour before or after are irrelevant; Sao Paulo weather at this time of year changes all the time. And it's been raining in the afternoon almost every day. They would have been landing almost directly into the sun so if the crew say "glare" one should be inclined to accept that. As for ILS/VOR unserviceable, no idea, perhaps someone on here has recent experience.
Regarding Brazilian vs Portuguese, sorry Krueger, can't buy that. In the first place you would have to dig up a very limited ATC guy who wasn't familiar with the differences, considering there's a flight every day. Secondly, and perhaps someone from TAP might clarify, one would expect communication with a European airline to be conducted in English. If it wasn't, there's a wakeup call in itself. Tapes - assuming they still exist and are compared - will no doubt clear it all up.
Conditions an hour before or after are irrelevant; Sao Paulo weather at this time of year changes all the time. And it's been raining in the afternoon almost every day. They would have been landing almost directly into the sun so if the crew say "glare" one should be inclined to accept that. As for ILS/VOR unserviceable, no idea, perhaps someone on here has recent experience.
Regarding Brazilian vs Portuguese, sorry Krueger, can't buy that. In the first place you would have to dig up a very limited ATC guy who wasn't familiar with the differences, considering there's a flight every day. Secondly, and perhaps someone from TAP might clarify, one would expect communication with a European airline to be conducted in English. If it wasn't, there's a wakeup call in itself. Tapes - assuming they still exist and are compared - will no doubt clear it all up.
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A Glaring Error
.
From the Google image you can easily see that in low visibility the very significantly displaced threshold of r/way 27L could lead to an honest mistake - i.e. you see just the squared (not curving) taxiway threshold and the real 27R threshold to its left (although it wasn't low visibility - just sun-glare - it nevertheless has the same effect, particularly if the sun-glare is exacerbated by a wet reflective runway & taxiway in the late afternoon).
PPRuNe FirstOfficer
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There is a healthy discussion going on about this incident on a Portuguese aviation forum, if anyone who understands the lingo is interested please pm me, due to rules i cannot leave the link here.
Safe Flying
Safe Flying
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I found a quite nice article in the seattle times about those
taxiway landings at Seattle-Tacoma airport somebody mentioned earlier:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._seatac13.html
taxiway landings at Seattle-Tacoma airport somebody mentioned earlier:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._seatac13.html
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Originally Posted by Belgique
From the Google image you can easily see that in low visibility the very significantly displaced threshold of r/way 27L could lead to an honest mistake - i.e. you see just the squared (not curving) taxiway threshold and the real 27R threshold to its left (although it wasn't low visibility - just sun-glare - it nevertheless has the same effect, particularly if the sun-glare is exacerbated by a wet reflective runway & taxiway in the late afternoon).
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Guys,I'am more and more convinced now,that this was an honest mistake.
Regarding language,99 times out of 100 TAP pilots conduct their R/T in Brazil or wherever in English.The only thing they say in portuguese down here are good mornings,thank you etc..The word for "go around" in brazilian port. is completely different from that one used in portuguese in Portugal ("arremeter" in Brasil and "borregar" in Portugal,but I guess the Portuguese pilots would understand the brasilian "arremeta!" as I would understand their "borregar".)The TAP pilot apparently,said that he thought the instruction was given to another aircraft coming in behind him.Those things sometimes happen even between americans and Brits,don´t they?
In Gatwick in 1988 I heard the following:
-Ma'am,let's make sure we're speaking the same language(very southern american pilot)
-Ok,I'm speaking english,you?(female controller without missing a beat)
Regarding language,99 times out of 100 TAP pilots conduct their R/T in Brazil or wherever in English.The only thing they say in portuguese down here are good mornings,thank you etc..The word for "go around" in brazilian port. is completely different from that one used in portuguese in Portugal ("arremeter" in Brasil and "borregar" in Portugal,but I guess the Portuguese pilots would understand the brasilian "arremeta!" as I would understand their "borregar".)The TAP pilot apparently,said that he thought the instruction was given to another aircraft coming in behind him.Those things sometimes happen even between americans and Brits,don´t they?
In Gatwick in 1988 I heard the following:
-Ma'am,let's make sure we're speaking the same language(very southern american pilot)
-Ok,I'm speaking english,you?(female controller without missing a beat)
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not a valid reason
I was made to believe that TWR instructed them to go around in Brazilian portuguese. However, go-around in portuguese is a totally different word.
Check Six, Krueger...
Check Six, Krueger...
Originally Posted by Founder
According to a rumor a SAS aircraft took off from a taxiway at ESSA Stockholm Arlanda. The ATC aparantly only said to the pilots, next time, use the runway... =)
