Ryan Air off the runway in AAR
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Penny to a pinch of slush that the equipment works fine, but someone somewhere has expressed doubts about its perfect accuracy, and due to the current craven attitudes to liability it is deemed better to do nothing and expose 150 people to an unknown hazard than to do your best and risk being accused of occasionally passing on slightly inaccurate data.
Same goes for passing X wind components, but you can at least work this one out for yourself.
Same goes for passing X wind components, but you can at least work this one out for yourself.
aka Capt PPRuNe
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Once again, I have to warn posters to this thread that it is PRIMARILY a website for AIRLINE PILOTS with allowances made for other groups of PROFESSIONAL PILOTS and those in associated professions. Just because there is another Ryanair thread on here doesn't not mean that the hoards of wannabe pilots, pretend pilots or anyone who thinks that because at some time in their lives they were in possession of a boarding pass to any form of aviation transport that they can use it for their own spleen venting or 'loaded' questions such as, for example; "Anybody know why they didn't use the slides and got out quick? Or is Ryanair saving money here too?"
If you have to ask that question in the first place and then have nerve to show your ignorance of anything to do with professional aviation by adding a totally stupid and baited question about saving money then you have no right to be on here in the first place. Whilst there are disputes with Ryanair management about the crews working terms & conditions, no one here amongst our fraternity of fellow pilots would for one second believe that the pilot involved in this incident was as naive and stupid as the posters of such ignorant rhetoric would like us to believe.
The incident that is the focus of this thread is one that could and does happen many times every year somewhere in the world. It has been highlighted because it was actually reported and photographed. This was not a crash or a disaster as some of the more sensitive and anxious posters would have us believe. The aircraft will be returned to service and the airline will continue operating.
I am fed up to the back teeth with muppets who insist on taking over every thread that has so much as a mention of Ryanair with their anti-Ryanair rhetoric when it has nothing to do with the issues that concern the rest of us as pilots. I do not care one iota whether Ryanair charge extra for their baggage or wheelchairs or that their destinations are more than x number of miles from the named city. It's one thing to have a go at Ryanair for their marketing and the way they run their airline. It is another when it comes to the way they treat their pilot workforce. If anyone still has a problem disassociating the two then perhaps this website and its contents are too complicated for you and you should seek less challenging pastures. If you have a problem with paying the wheelchair tax or having to pay for your baggage or anything that seems to excite the enthusiasts into a frenzy then please use the relevant forums on here or find a different spleen venting website where your feelings will be much better catered to. It's bad enough having to deal with Leo Hairy Camel when it comes to issues directly affecting the pilot workforce without having a bunch of aviation enthusiasts trying to goad him into more management inspired verbiage.
If you have to ask that question in the first place and then have nerve to show your ignorance of anything to do with professional aviation by adding a totally stupid and baited question about saving money then you have no right to be on here in the first place. Whilst there are disputes with Ryanair management about the crews working terms & conditions, no one here amongst our fraternity of fellow pilots would for one second believe that the pilot involved in this incident was as naive and stupid as the posters of such ignorant rhetoric would like us to believe.
The incident that is the focus of this thread is one that could and does happen many times every year somewhere in the world. It has been highlighted because it was actually reported and photographed. This was not a crash or a disaster as some of the more sensitive and anxious posters would have us believe. The aircraft will be returned to service and the airline will continue operating.
I am fed up to the back teeth with muppets who insist on taking over every thread that has so much as a mention of Ryanair with their anti-Ryanair rhetoric when it has nothing to do with the issues that concern the rest of us as pilots. I do not care one iota whether Ryanair charge extra for their baggage or wheelchairs or that their destinations are more than x number of miles from the named city. It's one thing to have a go at Ryanair for their marketing and the way they run their airline. It is another when it comes to the way they treat their pilot workforce. If anyone still has a problem disassociating the two then perhaps this website and its contents are too complicated for you and you should seek less challenging pastures. If you have a problem with paying the wheelchair tax or having to pay for your baggage or anything that seems to excite the enthusiasts into a frenzy then please use the relevant forums on here or find a different spleen venting website where your feelings will be much better catered to. It's bad enough having to deal with Leo Hairy Camel when it comes to issues directly affecting the pilot workforce without having a bunch of aviation enthusiasts trying to goad him into more management inspired verbiage.
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Agaricus bisporus
Slightly inaccurate?
In 1962 the ICAO were told that an accuracy of 0.01 existed.
in 1974 ICAO published a final report from the first international program for correlating friction measuring devices. Uncertainty on wet surfaces +-0.20 and on compacted snow or ice surfaces +- 0.10 - 0.15
In 1990 NASA published a report from a joint FAA/NASA research program.
In 2005 with data from the JWRFMP (Joint Winter Runway Friction Measurement Program) and the use of an ASTM standard it is claimed that one can bring the uncertainty down from +- 0.20 to +- 0.05. No State are using this standard.
From this we can conclude that today the real accuracy or uncertainty related to the use of friction measuring devices seems to be in the order of +- 0.10 or worse. This is more than 10 times worse than what we believed to have in 1962.
Slightly inaccurate?
Penny to a pinch of slush that the equipment works fine, but someone somewhere has expressed doubts about its perfect accuracy, and due to the current craven attitudes to liability it is deemed better to do nothing and expose 150 people to an unknown hazard than to do your best and risk being accused of occasionally passing on slightly inaccurate data.
In 1962 the ICAO were told that an accuracy of 0.01 existed.
in 1974 ICAO published a final report from the first international program for correlating friction measuring devices. Uncertainty on wet surfaces +-0.20 and on compacted snow or ice surfaces +- 0.10 - 0.15
In 1990 NASA published a report from a joint FAA/NASA research program.
For wet-runway conditions, the estimated aircraft braking performance from the ground-vehicle friction measurements was within +- 0.1 friction coefficient value of measured value, except for some rain-wet data
For snow- and ice-covered runway conditions, the estimated aircraft braking performance from the ground-vehicle measurements was within +- 0.1 friction coefficient value of the measured values.
From this we can conclude that today the real accuracy or uncertainty related to the use of friction measuring devices seems to be in the order of +- 0.10 or worse. This is more than 10 times worse than what we believed to have in 1962.
Slightly inaccurate?
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Originally Posted by metropolitan60
Anybody know why they didn't use the slides and got out quick? Or is Ryanair saving money here too?
Loss of nosewheel adhesion at low speeds on slippery surfaces will catch anyone out if Mother Nature conspires against you. Certain aerodrome 'piano keys' can be very slippery even when only wet, let alone if the surface is contaminated. Even at idle thrust and walking pace.
Exposing pax to the hazards of freezing conditions by ordering escape chute abandonment 'as a precaution' would be the height of folly. Personally I consider the orderly deplanement using covered steps was a sound policy.
Exposing pax to the hazards of freezing conditions by ordering escape chute abandonment 'as a precaution' would be the height of folly. Personally I consider the orderly deplanement using covered steps was a sound policy.
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Was there not an ej B737, a couple of years ago at AMS, skidding into a lamp-post at limping speed, due to de-ice fluid on the taxi way? Could happen to anyone anytime; even the careful ones.
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Originally Posted by Best foot forward
Thanks tribo any chance of a web site that has the info that you have published.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/publication/menu.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/14400/14498e.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/projects/air/f/9048.htm
1962 data - ICAO Doc 8298-AGA/593, Aerodromes, Air Routes and Ground Aids Division, Report of the seventh session, Montreal, 13 November - 14 December 1962.
1974 data - ICAO, Programme for correlating equipment used in measuring runway braking action, Final report, 22/2/74. Joint evaluation programme of equipment used in measuring runway braking action undertaken by: Canada, France, Sweden, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, United Kingdom and United States.
1990 data - NASA Technical Paper 2917, Evaluation of two transport aircraft and several ground test vehicle friction measurements obtained for various runway surface types and conditions - A summary of test results from joint FAA/NASA runway friction program, Thomas J. Yager, William A. Vogler and Paul Baldasare, Langley Research Center, 1990
2005 data - Presentation at the IMAPCR 2004 http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/events/2004/imapcr2004.htm Performance and the Requirements for As and Bs from Ground Test Results Showing IRFI is Reasonable and Useful for Reporting Aircraft Braking,James C. Wambold, PhD
CDRM Inc, State College, Pennsylvania,
Joint Winter Runway Friction Measurement Program (JWRFMP): International Runway Friction Index (IRFI) versus aircraft braking coefficient (Mu) (TP 14318E) http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/14300/14318e.htm and
ASTM Standard E2100-04, Standard Practice for Calculating the International Runway Friction Index.http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/13500/13579_3.htm
Last edited by tribo; 8th Feb 2006 at 15:46.
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Well said Danny! All of you that make smart arse comments about sector pay, times, taxi speeds etc... Let me give you a few facts:
1. Sector pay for pilots does not depend on how quick you did the sector, how quick you reduced the block time etc.. It goes on the total block time for the day which is a set figure. Whether you are one hour early or one hour late is irrelevant. The money for the day does not change.
2. All of the Ryanair 737-800 fleet have OFDM fitted to them. This system (for those that don't know what this is) monitors the aircrafts parameters very accurately during every phase of the flight. If a parameter is exceeded it is recorded and sent back to an independant monitoring station where a bloke looks at it all and takes appropriate action to the crew.
Now for taxiing, you cannot taxi at more than 30 knots or it will register on the OFDM. So all this bull**** about Ryanair takeoff speeds the same as taxi speeds, what are you talking about? And furthermore in this case, I do not know any one pilot that would taxi at more than 5kts in the conditions that were at AAR on the day.
Lets have less speculation and more fact please. The official report will be out soon enough, and until it is I wish people would stop spouting about their opinions when they don't mean Jack Schitt!
1. Sector pay for pilots does not depend on how quick you did the sector, how quick you reduced the block time etc.. It goes on the total block time for the day which is a set figure. Whether you are one hour early or one hour late is irrelevant. The money for the day does not change.
2. All of the Ryanair 737-800 fleet have OFDM fitted to them. This system (for those that don't know what this is) monitors the aircrafts parameters very accurately during every phase of the flight. If a parameter is exceeded it is recorded and sent back to an independant monitoring station where a bloke looks at it all and takes appropriate action to the crew.
Now for taxiing, you cannot taxi at more than 30 knots or it will register on the OFDM. So all this bull**** about Ryanair takeoff speeds the same as taxi speeds, what are you talking about? And furthermore in this case, I do not know any one pilot that would taxi at more than 5kts in the conditions that were at AAR on the day.
Lets have less speculation and more fact please. The official report will be out soon enough, and until it is I wish people would stop spouting about their opinions when they don't mean Jack Schitt!
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If a parameter is exceeded it is recorded and sent back to an independant monitoring station where a bloke looks at it all and takes appropriate action to the crew.
Who is the independant monitor in a company that has no union?
Is this person appointed by the company?
Does he take action on behalf of the company or on other authority?
Who pays his wages?
a bloke looks at it all and takes appropriate action to the crew
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this remark sounds suspiciously like ****-stirring. the analysis is in fact done by a very sound, experienced pilot who works for an independant supplier. his analyses are fast accurate and sensible and having spoken to him a couple of times I have every confidence in him. i think the other pilots do too. we get honest and fair feedback where appropriate and the system has stood the test of time so far, having been operational for a couple of years now. no doubt we will be circulated with rational analysis when it becomes available in the usual way
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Originally Posted by Faire d'income
Questions for Busbar.
Who is the independant monitor in a company that has no union?
Is this person appointed by the company?
Does he take action on behalf of the company or on other authority?
Who pays his wages?
Can you please explain this part? Thanks.
Who is the independant monitor in a company that has no union?
Is this person appointed by the company?
Does he take action on behalf of the company or on other authority?
Who pays his wages?
Can you please explain this part? Thanks.
Flaps40 post is true and accurate. Is the **** stirring comment aimed at me though? If so then not the case, far from it! The guy that does this is very good and the system works well.
1. What have unions got to do with safety monitoring on board an aircraft?
2. Ryanair employs this company to monitor the data. This company (can't remember their name) in turn appoint an individual to deal with Ryanair. They have to be independant to Ryanair for obvious reasons.
As for the other questions, I don't know, sorry! I think this info is accurate but if anybody can correct me then please do so!
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Thanks for the reply and no I wasn't **** stirring. The question I thought was quite obvious, ops monitoring is necessary but so are your civil liberties and the right to defend yourself. Hence an obvious area for a union if you had one.
If it is completely independant then that is perfectly ok. In a unionised comany it is normal for the company and the union to agree on an individual or individuals to discretely contact offenders detected by the OMS. I was just curious how this is handled at Ryanair.
If it is completely independant then that is perfectly ok. In a unionised comany it is normal for the company and the union to agree on an individual or individuals to discretely contact offenders detected by the OMS. I was just curious how this is handled at Ryanair.
Last edited by Faire d'income; 8th Feb 2006 at 19:15.
No a/c flown back same day with px on board..................More drama on this thread than in Arhuus!.............Good call Danny.
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Originally Posted by JW411
Those of you out there who keep quoting half-hourly Metars have obviously had little or no experience of operating in hostile winter weather conditions. The Metars are of little relevance as far as braking action is concerned except for planning purposes.
In my job I frequently find myself in the hold while the airport authority treats the runway and then comes up with the very latest braking action.
Those of you who do not really understand these things should understand that the braking action given is only accurate for the time at which it was taken. Five minutes later things could be totally different as I have ALMOST found to my cost in the past!
Who was it who said "there but for the grace of God go I"?
In my job I frequently find myself in the hold while the airport authority treats the runway and then comes up with the very latest braking action.
Those of you who do not really understand these things should understand that the braking action given is only accurate for the time at which it was taken. Five minutes later things could be totally different as I have ALMOST found to my cost in the past!
Who was it who said "there but for the grace of God go I"?
My professional support to your explanation on BA!Sometimes we/! Just want to see blod and apropriate blame .... It can hapen to anyone of you, or me unless some of you thinks that it will only hapen to others!
Nice to see a Professional taking a stand!
Rgds FJP
