GB To Lose Right To Fly To Funchal?
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GB To Lose Right To Fly To Funchal?
Looking at the thread on Madeira (FNC) it appears that the Portuguese CAA might get nasty as someone has allegedly landed in Funchal out of limits. Must have rocks in his head!. .. .Any info?
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I don`t think the INAC will do anything, it won`t be for one landing with winds out of limits that they will not allow a carrier to fly into and out of Funchal! I`ve seen lots of carriers landing several times with winds out of limits and nothing happened to them! Sometimes winds in Funchal are out of limits, but it is still ok to land, you just have to give it a try!!! That`s what happened this week! And I`ve seen goarounds with light winds!!! It`s very unpredictable... I don`t think the INAC will do something, since the winds limitations in Funchal lack of a good study about them! Lack of money, I believe!
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V.grateful to GB for getting us out of Funchal when winds definitely a bit iffy-but winds along the threshhold/touchdown zone were actually quite tame compared to what was being shown by the windsock at the eastern end.Good service as well,obviously haven't been tarnished by the BA brush-yet.
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Dont sink. "SOMETIME THE WIND IS OUT OF LIMITS, BUT IT IS OKAY TO LAND. YOU JUST HAVE TO GIVE IT A TRY.". .. .What is the point of having limits. You may be very familiar with local geographical quirks that make the wind veer and die down on touchdown, but it sounds to me like get-initous. . .. .As a Cpt said to me when I first started on my long career, how will you justify your actions at the subiquent board of enquiry.. .. .I have operated into many CAT C airfields but before doing so have flown many approaches in a simulator. We are profesional pilots trained to operate into difficult airfields. Just because it is a difficult approach, it should not effect you judgement to discontinue. . .. .Next time, give it a try and GO-AROUND.
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I was taught to consider every approach to be 'an approach to a missed approach' (i.e. you should always be expecting to have to go-around at any point) but that there comes a point, very late, during an approach when you're able to decide that it's actually safe to land (e.g. think of a Cat IIIA - when at 50' RadAlt you hope you can see enough runway lights to allow you to positively identify it as the runway, and land - and basically the same is true of any approach from that through to CAVOK too).
Moving on, I think you'll find that what most aeroplane flying manuals actually say is something like 'the demonstrated cross-wind limit is XX kts', i.e. the manufacturer took the aircraft to somewhere very windy, with a test pilot flying it, and proved just how much wind the beast will handle. That does not mean that this is the actual limit, only the demonstrated one (but remember, this was determined by a test pilot, working for a manufacturer who wants to sell the aircraft, and who so needs it to seen as a capable a machine as possible, against their competitors aircraft - whom are doing the exact same with their aircraft).
Accordingly, as there really is not a limit, you might fancy 'having a go' when the wind is beyond the 'demonstrated limit' but in that instance your are in effect acting as a test pilot, as result of which (and as Lenny Godber says above) you might very well have to justify your actions at a subsequent Board of Enquiry and / or in Court - assuming that is that you actually manage to crawl out of the wreckage !
Nb. The above of course assumes no overriding local airport or country limitations and / or airline limits as stated in the Operations or Flying Manuals, etc.
Maybe then this is what DontSink is trying to imply when he/she wrote 'you just have to give it a try'.
Uhm ?!
Moving on, I think you'll find that what most aeroplane flying manuals actually say is something like 'the demonstrated cross-wind limit is XX kts', i.e. the manufacturer took the aircraft to somewhere very windy, with a test pilot flying it, and proved just how much wind the beast will handle. That does not mean that this is the actual limit, only the demonstrated one (but remember, this was determined by a test pilot, working for a manufacturer who wants to sell the aircraft, and who so needs it to seen as a capable a machine as possible, against their competitors aircraft - whom are doing the exact same with their aircraft).
Accordingly, as there really is not a limit, you might fancy 'having a go' when the wind is beyond the 'demonstrated limit' but in that instance your are in effect acting as a test pilot, as result of which (and as Lenny Godber says above) you might very well have to justify your actions at a subsequent Board of Enquiry and / or in Court - assuming that is that you actually manage to crawl out of the wreckage !
Nb. The above of course assumes no overriding local airport or country limitations and / or airline limits as stated in the Operations or Flying Manuals, etc.
Maybe then this is what DontSink is trying to imply when he/she wrote 'you just have to give it a try'.
Uhm ?!
Last edited by Devils Advocate; 31st Mar 2002 at 13:16.
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Out of limits is out of limits. The wind limitations at Madeira (FNC) are there for reasons of safety. These wind limitations (in relation to the touchdown anenometer) are to allow the pilot to make a safe approach and touchdown. These are airfield, not aircraft, limitations
I cannot believe that in the current climate i.e. post Sept. 11th, when air safety is so much in the public spotlight, that any pilot would deliberately ignore safety limitations. This is especially true at an airfield like FNC which must always be treated with the greatest respect.
I have operated to FNC many times and in my experience if the wind is close to limits you can expect a rough ride. If the wind is out of limits????
We are in danger of destroying our own industry if we carry on like this, and we deserve everything we get.
I hope that INAC come down hard on those involved, otherwise after this we may as well throw the rule book away. (It sounds like some already have!!!)
The CAA need to investigate this too if, allegedly, a UK carrier is involved.
I cannot believe that in the current climate i.e. post Sept. 11th, when air safety is so much in the public spotlight, that any pilot would deliberately ignore safety limitations. This is especially true at an airfield like FNC which must always be treated with the greatest respect.
I have operated to FNC many times and in my experience if the wind is close to limits you can expect a rough ride. If the wind is out of limits????
We are in danger of destroying our own industry if we carry on like this, and we deserve everything we get.
I hope that INAC come down hard on those involved, otherwise after this we may as well throw the rule book away. (It sounds like some already have!!!)
The CAA need to investigate this too if, allegedly, a UK carrier is involved.
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CCA, sorry but that is twaddle. Correct, but twaddle. It is right to 'have a go' - then your common sense comes into play. If everyone accepted EVERYTHING as 'right' aviation would would be in a right old mess!
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TP, how many pilots do you know who have common sense? Do the CAA have common sense? Do the media use common sense?
If you can justify 'having a go' outside of limits at the subsequent board of enquiry feel free to 'have a go'.
In the best case its your license, do what you like with it. In the worst case its banged up in a foreign slammer on a manslaughter charge.
Good luck to you, but please don't 'have a go' if me or my familly are on board, we'd rather you stick to the rules no matter how inconvenient.
If you can justify 'having a go' outside of limits at the subsequent board of enquiry feel free to 'have a go'.
In the best case its your license, do what you like with it. In the worst case its banged up in a foreign slammer on a manslaughter charge.
Good luck to you, but please don't 'have a go' if me or my familly are on board, we'd rather you stick to the rules no matter how inconvenient.
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Regulations :
Funchal / Madeira Airport ( LPMA / FNC ) has wind limitations for operation both approach and take-off.
Wind limitations are stated in Portuguese AIP.
According AIP when wind is out of published limits pilots are requested to readback wind information and inform ATC about itentions.
When an operation is performed with winds above limits, the operation will be reported to Portuguese Authorities (INAC = Portuguese CAA).
Experience :
Wind limitations for approach are from touchdown anemometer and sometimes with wind within limits, the difference between rosario and touchdown winds for Rwy 06 (now 05) is such that approaches are harder then with with winds out f limits.
Wind limitations are based on 2 min average wind at touchdown; for Rwy 06 (now 05) it took 5 to 6 minutes between IAF Funor and final so approach clearance was given when pilot reported intention of 'trying' the approach. If winds were above limits, and as normally happens, decision to land or not belonged to the pilot and if intending to land clarance was given.
It sometimes happened that wind was blowing 1 degree or 1 kt out of limits and ATC omitted that 1 degree/kt to allow operation without report but always knowing that difference was marginal and captain has final decision on operation.
Also wind readings at TWr were until few years ago only direct reading from anemometer i.e. they didn't have te possibility to aloow ATC to see 2 min / 10 min average ... and without this facility is difficult to judge what is and what is not 'gusting'...
INAC is waiting for a study done buy Airbus on wind limitations for operation at Funchal in order to have the wind limitations corrected, if necessary.
Funchal / Madeira Airport ( LPMA / FNC ) has wind limitations for operation both approach and take-off.
Wind limitations are stated in Portuguese AIP.
According AIP when wind is out of published limits pilots are requested to readback wind information and inform ATC about itentions.
When an operation is performed with winds above limits, the operation will be reported to Portuguese Authorities (INAC = Portuguese CAA).
Experience :
Wind limitations for approach are from touchdown anemometer and sometimes with wind within limits, the difference between rosario and touchdown winds for Rwy 06 (now 05) is such that approaches are harder then with with winds out f limits.
Wind limitations are based on 2 min average wind at touchdown; for Rwy 06 (now 05) it took 5 to 6 minutes between IAF Funor and final so approach clearance was given when pilot reported intention of 'trying' the approach. If winds were above limits, and as normally happens, decision to land or not belonged to the pilot and if intending to land clarance was given.
It sometimes happened that wind was blowing 1 degree or 1 kt out of limits and ATC omitted that 1 degree/kt to allow operation without report but always knowing that difference was marginal and captain has final decision on operation.
Also wind readings at TWr were until few years ago only direct reading from anemometer i.e. they didn't have te possibility to aloow ATC to see 2 min / 10 min average ... and without this facility is difficult to judge what is and what is not 'gusting'...
INAC is waiting for a study done buy Airbus on wind limitations for operation at Funchal in order to have the wind limitations corrected, if necessary.
