250kts on departure
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
In most cases the initial SID route is totally dependent on noise preferential routes. At LHR once above 4000ft you can be taken off the SID; trouble is, the point at which you in your shiny A320/737 reaches 4000ft and where the Virgin 340 going to LAX reaches 4000ft are quite far apart
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: Between The Black Swan & The Swettenham Arms
The following was posted on a forum of the flight crew website on 02nd Mar by our ATC Liaison Pilot:
Still waiting for 'official' notification from The Management.
London Terminal Control will commence a speed limit trial affecting all departures from London TMA airfields from 8th April. Simply stated: your speed will be limited to 250Kts or min clean speed, whichever is higher, until passing FL100.
All that you will notice is that ATCOs will not issue the instruction "no ATC speed restriction" on departure other than (exceptionally) for tactical reasons.
All that you will notice is that ATCOs will not issue the instruction "no ATC speed restriction" on departure other than (exceptionally) for tactical reasons.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: surrey
The 'tactical reasons' is nice
That means that I will be taking speeds off as and when I want and usually well before the FL100 mark. After all, I am the one who is using my license, and I will dictate my tactics on how to run my sector, not some non controlling management person.
That means that I will be taking speeds off as and when I want and usually well before the FL100 mark. After all, I am the one who is using my license, and I will dictate my tactics on how to run my sector, not some non controlling management person.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 446
Likes: 3
From: solent-on-sea
I believe the 'official notification' is pinned to the wall in the briefing room above the two PC's.
As for the 'I'm doing it tactically, all the time', I'm led to believe that will be a matter between you and your LCE.
As for the 'I'm doing it tactically, all the time', I'm led to believe that will be a matter between you and your LCE.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: UK
I may have missed the point, but I think nothing has changed. The charts we use state that departing LHR we are limited to 250 kts until reachimg FL100. Up to now, at the discretipon of the controller, we have been allowed to accelerate beyond that restriction below FL100. From March, they will no longer be able to offer any deviation from the speed constraint. So technically nothing has changed and therefore there is nothing to inform the crews about, although it kwould be nice to know if only so you know not to even ask for high speed.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: UK
Based Manchester, UK - they have "speed profiling" on southerly SID's with 250kts to FL100 then 280-290kts to FL260
Manchester area then hand you off to London who want you up at FL310 50 before Midhurst - try doing that in a heavy A321!!
They then promptly cancel the Manchester speed restriction because they want you out of the way and would rather you make as high as you can get, regardless of speed, which makes a mockery of the speed profille in the first place.
Manchester area then hand you off to London who want you up at FL310 50 before Midhurst - try doing that in a heavy A321!!
They then promptly cancel the Manchester speed restriction because they want you out of the way and would rather you make as high as you can get, regardless of speed, which makes a mockery of the speed profille in the first place.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
From: Hants, UK
Originally Posted by Ipaq
Based Manchester, UK - they have "speed profiling" on southerly SID's with 250kts to FL100 then 280-290kts to FL260
Manchester area then hand you off to London who want you up at FL310 50 before Midhurst - try doing that in a heavy A321!!
They then promptly cancel the Manchester speed restriction because they want you out of the way and would rather you make as high as you can get, regardless of speed, which makes a mockery of the speed profille in the first place.
Manchester area then hand you off to London who want you up at FL310 50 before Midhurst - try doing that in a heavy A321!!
They then promptly cancel the Manchester speed restriction because they want you out of the way and would rather you make as high as you can get, regardless of speed, which makes a mockery of the speed profille in the first place.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: surrey
Ipaq
the 250kts on departure from Manchester are to prevent bunching of aircraft - it works in this case because it is a single airfield.
Whether the 250kts in the London TMA will prevent bunching from several different airports remains to be seen.
If you feel there is a safety implication with the Manchester procedure (and tha would include making you feel under pressure) then you should report it.
the 250kts on departure from Manchester are to prevent bunching of aircraft - it works in this case because it is a single airfield.
Whether the 250kts in the London TMA will prevent bunching from several different airports remains to be seen.
If you feel there is a safety implication with the Manchester procedure (and tha would include making you feel under pressure) then you should report it.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 836
Likes: 2
From: Costa del Swanwick
I'm not sure whether it matters if the speed is 250kts( ) or,say, 280kts. The crucial thing is that the traffic is presented in the same manner in order to reduce bunching at the interfaces,be it to the next sector or unit. I recently watched an incident between 2 a/c on the same SID from the same airport,100 miles north of the departure field,similar types-and no,not an A340 involved, and they had an airmiss. Now if they had been flying the SID and a similar speed there is no way that the in-built airfield separation could have been eroded so much.
It seems that the airlines want a "pile'em high,sell 'em cheap" type of service nowadays and are interested purely in sector throughput and eradication of delays. This will require a major re-education amongst the ATC fraternity and will not be a painless experience. From an en-route point of view it is the bunching which causes the major problems so this has to be worth a try for at least a couple of months and people not giving it a fair chance will not help the validation of such a procedure.
) or,say, 280kts. The crucial thing is that the traffic is presented in the same manner in order to reduce bunching at the interfaces,be it to the next sector or unit. I recently watched an incident between 2 a/c on the same SID from the same airport,100 miles north of the departure field,similar types-and no,not an A340 involved, and they had an airmiss. Now if they had been flying the SID and a similar speed there is no way that the in-built airfield separation could have been eroded so much.It seems that the airlines want a "pile'em high,sell 'em cheap" type of service nowadays and are interested purely in sector throughput and eradication of delays. This will require a major re-education amongst the ATC fraternity and will not be a painless experience. From an en-route point of view it is the bunching which causes the major problems so this has to be worth a try for at least a couple of months and people not giving it a fair chance will not help the validation of such a procedure.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 836
Likes: 2
From: Costa del Swanwick
ipAQ. The Manchester streaming trial has reduced delays considerably on the airfield at Manchester. It was a regular occurrence for a Minimum Departure Interval to be put on the departures to the south,often at short notice. This led to airfield delays often without notice. This trial has meant that the traffic is presented to Daventry sector in a known and expected manner leading to the lack of need for last minute restrictions and therefore a more regular and consistent service to the operators.
