Ryanair B738 loss of situational awareness and terrain clearance 07/09/05
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I dont dispute anyone's right to freedom of speech or to hold an opinion. Nevertheless, if Snam feels so strongly about this incident and has some information or facts which may have a bearing on the outcome of the investigation he should bring them to the attention of the authorities, formally.This would assist the process of identifying the causal factors in the incident, thereby providing an avenue to prevent a recurrence in the future. His freedom to speak would not be compromised and his opinion would be listened to, but ignored, as facts are only taken in to account.
Most of his "facts", incidentally, appear to take the form of " A big boy told me": the authority would require the "big boy " to tell them first hand.
Moreover, any company,or authority, not just Ryanair, would be quite entitled to " cut his freedom from his mouth" if he is spouting off, opinion rather than fact, and likely to prejudice the investigation. Freedom of speech carries with it a responsibility; if he has verifiable facts Snam should deal with the matter in a professional manner. The benefit of his "opinion" here, serves no purpose.
Most of his "facts", incidentally, appear to take the form of " A big boy told me": the authority would require the "big boy " to tell them first hand.
Moreover, any company,or authority, not just Ryanair, would be quite entitled to " cut his freedom from his mouth" if he is spouting off, opinion rather than fact, and likely to prejudice the investigation. Freedom of speech carries with it a responsibility; if he has verifiable facts Snam should deal with the matter in a professional manner. The benefit of his "opinion" here, serves no purpose.
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Leo...leo...leo...you naughty boy
Oh dear Leo,
Again you have not been able to be the strong person you portraid yourself to be:
Quote:"Dutch first officer (tall, blonde, skinny, vacant looking, struts with depressingly familiar Dutch overconfidence) can’t tell the difference between Hungarian and Polish"
I wonder what kind of traumatic occurrence you have gone through that makes you take the p.ss at just about anyone unable to defend him/her-self
What a sorry attitude here.
SNAM: I understand that you wish to change some opinions posted here, but if you have fact that do so may I suggest you to share them so we can all form our opinion.
Nikky
Again you have not been able to be the strong person you portraid yourself to be:
Quote:"Dutch first officer (tall, blonde, skinny, vacant looking, struts with depressingly familiar Dutch overconfidence) can’t tell the difference between Hungarian and Polish"
I wonder what kind of traumatic occurrence you have gone through that makes you take the p.ss at just about anyone unable to defend him/her-self
What a sorry attitude here.
SNAM: I understand that you wish to change some opinions posted here, but if you have fact that do so may I suggest you to share them so we can all form our opinion.
Nikky
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LHC is certainly not a very nice individual. Thankfully he's not a pilot as he sounds like the type of guy who would be a nightmare to fly with.
Snam, why don't you share your agenda with us? IF the FO in question is sharing such sensitive information with you, do you think he wants this knowlege aired in front of the many prying and vindictive eyes that watch this site?
Snam, why don't you share your agenda with us? IF the FO in question is sharing such sensitive information with you, do you think he wants this knowlege aired in front of the many prying and vindictive eyes that watch this site?
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Let's get real!
Guys: By chewing each other up, you are getting off of the point! First, the system worked. The “Low Time” FO took over, and no-one was hurt. Second, this incident was caused by an error made by a man under great stress and NO-ONE not going under that stress can or should judge him! He made a mistake; thank God that no-one was hurt. Remember the phrase, “There but for the grace of God go I.” Lets just all learn from it and move on. Spreading the word on this one should be to learn and not to blame or criticize. Third, there is no excuse for comments about national origin or anything of the like! There are good apples and bad apples in every barrel, if you get my drift. That’s just my thought on the subject. Fly safe and play nice.
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Gent's ( and to be politically correct in todays environment, Ladies),
It seems to me that a lot of hot air is being bandied around to no great purpose here. Having just wasted an hour reading this thread from the begining, (been away) it seems that it has not really advanced. Ideed it seems to have descended into the usual mud slinging drivel that most of the FR posts do!
I cannot see why anyone bothers to rise to the festering bait that Leo drops in from time to time. Surely the best way of conducting a reasoned debate, and also p*** off Leo would be to completely ignore his comments and conduct the debate as if he were not contributing.
As there has been FR BI carried out, and the result was to retrain and return to line flying, surely it can be to no one's detriment to discuss the true facts here. If as is being suggested there was a cover up and this was inappropriate then it would do well to air the information to prevent a repeat. If this was indeed a satisfactory response then it would clear the air and be seen to have been a stisfactory response.
The true purpose of investigating an incident / accident in aviation is to establish the facts, learn from them and instigate procedures and protocols to prevent re-occurrence. Unfortunately ours is a blame culture whereby this can often be measured in financial terms, so this is often the least important goal in an investigation.
Get a life and move on!
It seems to me that a lot of hot air is being bandied around to no great purpose here. Having just wasted an hour reading this thread from the begining, (been away) it seems that it has not really advanced. Ideed it seems to have descended into the usual mud slinging drivel that most of the FR posts do!
I cannot see why anyone bothers to rise to the festering bait that Leo drops in from time to time. Surely the best way of conducting a reasoned debate, and also p*** off Leo would be to completely ignore his comments and conduct the debate as if he were not contributing.
As there has been FR BI carried out, and the result was to retrain and return to line flying, surely it can be to no one's detriment to discuss the true facts here. If as is being suggested there was a cover up and this was inappropriate then it would do well to air the information to prevent a repeat. If this was indeed a satisfactory response then it would clear the air and be seen to have been a stisfactory response.
The true purpose of investigating an incident / accident in aviation is to establish the facts, learn from them and instigate procedures and protocols to prevent re-occurrence. Unfortunately ours is a blame culture whereby this can often be measured in financial terms, so this is often the least important goal in an investigation.
Get a life and move on!
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Originally Posted by vfenext
Thats the scary bit!
No it's more like the action of a company who are so hard up for crew they will put any warm bodies in the seats! Be careful who you and yours choose to fly with folks, remember you get what you pay for.
No it's more like the action of a company who are so hard up for crew they will put any warm bodies in the seats! Be careful who you and yours choose to fly with folks, remember you get what you pay for.
With all due respect you may methink that you be a proud pilot of any National N.1 flag carrier supported by our strong association and I'm affraid you do not recognize competence, - May be like yours and same level , if one is flying a low cost carrier?!Many low cost pilots ARE great professionals -Just like you seem to be- and seldom fly to places we haven't been before.May be the so called air National carriers send you so many times under observation and Route Familiarization until you are released! Thats just one of the diferences.
Diference does not imply less safe! Or it Should not!
I fully resent on behalf of those having less pay check than you however not certainlly proportionnaly less standards and airmanship etc.
Just look at the example of an examplar carrier landing on a taxyawy in Brasil with an A340! It hapens in the best families, sir!
We professionals must understand the global picture before pointing the finger!
My Regards
FJP
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Originally Posted by RMC
LHC
Its rather gratifying (like when Princess Michael of Kent comes out with one of her idiotic "go back to where you came from" jibes) when unconscious / incompetent bigots make this kind of shallow disriminatory statement.
You either over estimate your private education or under estimate the quality of state schools.
I am state educated but have an MSc in Business Mangagement (University of Warwick)..... only ever mentioned when dealing with clowns like you.
Would be more than happy to discuss this with you in person...perhaps you could PM me. (This thread will be history by the time I next log onto PPRUNE).
Its rather gratifying (like when Princess Michael of Kent comes out with one of her idiotic "go back to where you came from" jibes) when unconscious / incompetent bigots make this kind of shallow disriminatory statement.
You either over estimate your private education or under estimate the quality of state schools.
I am state educated but have an MSc in Business Mangagement (University of Warwick)..... only ever mentioned when dealing with clowns like you.
Would be more than happy to discuss this with you in person...perhaps you could PM me. (This thread will be history by the time I next log onto PPRUNE).
I and my 3 brothers are all state educated, none went to university yet we have managed to produce (amongst us) 3 professional pilots, 2 military officers and one company director. So much for private education.
However, our "local" private school did a grand job of holding up the educational league tables!
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Report: Ryanair B738 loss of situational awareness and terrain clearance 07/09/05
By Simon Hradecky, created Friday, May 29th 2009 19:15Z, last updated Friday, May 29th 2009 20:58Z
Source+ full report, Aviation Herald
The crew of a Ryanair Boeing 737-800, registration EI-DAV performing flight FR-9672 from Dusseldorf Niederrhein (Germany) to Rome Ciampino (Italy) with 166 passengers, completely lost situational awareness around 12:20Z, after they had abandoned their approach to Rome's Ciampino Airport and decided to divert to Rome's Fiumicino Airport due to adverse weather. The crew began to miss ATC instructions and descended below assigned altitudes, getting into conflict with other traffic forced to descend further to 1000 feet, but descending below 1000 feet too and thus getting just about 454 feet above ground at a speed of 200 KIAS perpendicular to the approach path at one point before the crew aborted the approach. The crew was not able to approach Fiumicino as well and finally diverted to Pescara, where the airplane landed safely with just 1520 kg (3350 lbs) of fuel remaining.
The Italian National Agency for Aviation Safety ("Agenzia Nazionale per la Sicurezza del Volo", ANSV) concluded in their final report, that the cause of the serious incident was
- the incorrect operation and conduct of flight by the flight crew in adverse weather at the unplanned and unbriefed diversion to Rome's Fiumicino Airport.
Contributing were
- the captain's state of mind, who had lost his only son three months before after a long illness
- the progressing loss of situational awareness by the flight crew
- limited experience by the first officer
- poor cockpit resource management and crew cooperation
- inappropriate informations provided by air traffic control in non-standard language
- inadequate analysis of weather data by the flight crew
- incorrect use of onboard weather radar by flight crew
- absence of timely available ground radar based weather data in the Rome approach sectors
- absence of the minimum safe altitude warning on the approach radar of Rome's air traffic control
The Italian National Agency for Aviation Safety ("Agenzia Nazionale per la Sicurezza del Volo", ANSV) concluded in their final report, that the cause of the serious incident was
- the incorrect operation and conduct of flight by the flight crew in adverse weather at the unplanned and unbriefed diversion to Rome's Fiumicino Airport.
Contributing were
- the captain's state of mind, who had lost his only son three months before after a long illness
- the progressing loss of situational awareness by the flight crew
- limited experience by the first officer
- poor cockpit resource management and crew cooperation
- inappropriate informations provided by air traffic control in non-standard language
- inadequate analysis of weather data by the flight crew
- incorrect use of onboard weather radar by flight crew
- absence of timely available ground radar based weather data in the Rome approach sectors
- absence of the minimum safe altitude warning on the approach radar of Rome's air traffic control
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What took them so long? Seems this conclusion could have been published a few weeks after the incident. Do they hope we will all forget about it if enough time passes? Isn't that pretty much what the hairy camel piece told us in 2006, post #2 I think.
Investigating committees!
Investigating committees!
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From AV Herald
"The commander told the ANSV in interviews, that he had not informed his company about the loss of his son fearing, he might lose his job."
Speechles.
"The commander told the ANSV in interviews, that he had not informed his company about the loss of his son fearing, he might lose his job."
Speechles.
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SNAM's " facts " and the caring sharing yet highly professional employer whom the aviation world holds in great esteem.
Who's crew benefit from being the best paid in the business, the company with a base level management infrastructure so supportive as to leave a captain in fear of their livelihood as a result of a bereavement.
The evidence appears to be mounting .... bunch of knackers end of.
Fine words butter no parsnips ... especially from the mouths of liars.
Who's crew benefit from being the best paid in the business, the company with a base level management infrastructure so supportive as to leave a captain in fear of their livelihood as a result of a bereavement.
The evidence appears to be mounting .... bunch of knackers end of.
Fine words butter no parsnips ... especially from the mouths of liars.
