Ryanair B738 loss of situational awareness and terrain clearance 07/09/05
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
Dear Leo,
Clearly our viewpoints differ on the matter. I don't believe that more human interest is givven the size of FR impossible, I believe the exact opposite, FR is because of it's multi-base operation a fairly easy to manage safety culture opereation.
As you could have read in my earlyer reply's on the subject I am convinced that the captain in question should have reported unfit to fly, but that opinion (which we share) is not the final conclusion, it is at best the start of an in depth investigation into the human behaviour leading to the unfortunuate mishap. Accidents happen as a result of a meganism in which human failure only forms a relative small part, it is the envieroment in which these humans operate that influences the way humans operate (James Reason) And for that reason FR should not rest and continue as normal but learn the lessons to be learned.
Your claim that FR cannot affort to be unsafe because of all the turbulence it has created is clearly true. However you should realise that compliance with regulations is by no means a guarentee for safety. Airline accidents only happen to airlines and airlines are companies that operate in compliance with regulations. Fact is that airlines that invest in training, equipment, corporate culture etc.. have a proven reccord of better safety. FR does not seam to be investing anything beyond the minimum legal requirements.
Finally Leo could you give me some advice? A good friend of me did his type convertion training a few months ago and is still waiting for his line training, he is at home, no income and he has a family depending on him. What do you suggest I tell my friend to do?
Kind regards, Nick
Clearly our viewpoints differ on the matter. I don't believe that more human interest is givven the size of FR impossible, I believe the exact opposite, FR is because of it's multi-base operation a fairly easy to manage safety culture opereation.
As you could have read in my earlyer reply's on the subject I am convinced that the captain in question should have reported unfit to fly, but that opinion (which we share) is not the final conclusion, it is at best the start of an in depth investigation into the human behaviour leading to the unfortunuate mishap. Accidents happen as a result of a meganism in which human failure only forms a relative small part, it is the envieroment in which these humans operate that influences the way humans operate (James Reason) And for that reason FR should not rest and continue as normal but learn the lessons to be learned.
Your claim that FR cannot affort to be unsafe because of all the turbulence it has created is clearly true. However you should realise that compliance with regulations is by no means a guarentee for safety. Airline accidents only happen to airlines and airlines are companies that operate in compliance with regulations. Fact is that airlines that invest in training, equipment, corporate culture etc.. have a proven reccord of better safety. FR does not seam to be investing anything beyond the minimum legal requirements.
Finally Leo could you give me some advice? A good friend of me did his type convertion training a few months ago and is still waiting for his line training, he is at home, no income and he has a family depending on him. What do you suggest I tell my friend to do?
Kind regards, Nick
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Clandestino
Now I hesitate to enter a Ryanair thread, but the incident is very serious, so here’s a couple of things.
Clandestino, I think yours is a very thought-provoking post. As it happens, today I had lunch with a friend who used to be a very senior training (check) captain with a well-known international carrier. I asked him what he thought of the state of affairs of a B73 crew composed of a Hungarian contract (agency ?) pilot and a 400+ hr Dutch co-pilot, flying an Irish aircraft from Dusseldorf to Rome, when the pilot had actually buried one of his children the previous day. Let me say at this point that I do offer him my deepest sympathy. Anyone who has been in a similar situation would never point the finger of blame, you have no idea what is happening and a youngster would not easily discern a problem, even if he knew you.
Anyway, this friend looked at me as if I was slightly deranged. You know that untrusting, baffled look, when someone’s eyes seem to be jutting out of their sockets and the nose seems to project, the neck extrudes, the eyes almost glaze over and then, the head starts shaking steadily sideways and the eyes are downcast and a look of absolute incredulity forms. You’ve seen it I am sure. He used to be a serious specialist on CRM. Well, what do you think he said ……. Once he could speak ? Correct.
Then I gave him some more details, those that got this thread going, about losing the plot, switching off the A/P, etc etc. He just stared at me.
“oTd – are you joking ?” Wish I was.
Seems to me, with all due respect to the fellow who calls himself a camel (but is patently a management stooge, no doubt about it) every single operator ought to have thought of this type of situation long before they got caught out and - nearly - had an accident. Mixed nationalities can be big trouble, don’t they know that at Ryanair ? That is not a racist statement, it is the truth. It would be so easy to point a finger at the co-pilot, but that would prove nothing. To me, you have a very poor CRM system mate. Never mind all the other stuff about Ryanair.
One other point, do “agency” pilots undergo Ryanair CRM training and currency checks etc ? Just wondering.
oTd
Clandestino, I think yours is a very thought-provoking post. As it happens, today I had lunch with a friend who used to be a very senior training (check) captain with a well-known international carrier. I asked him what he thought of the state of affairs of a B73 crew composed of a Hungarian contract (agency ?) pilot and a 400+ hr Dutch co-pilot, flying an Irish aircraft from Dusseldorf to Rome, when the pilot had actually buried one of his children the previous day. Let me say at this point that I do offer him my deepest sympathy. Anyone who has been in a similar situation would never point the finger of blame, you have no idea what is happening and a youngster would not easily discern a problem, even if he knew you.
Anyway, this friend looked at me as if I was slightly deranged. You know that untrusting, baffled look, when someone’s eyes seem to be jutting out of their sockets and the nose seems to project, the neck extrudes, the eyes almost glaze over and then, the head starts shaking steadily sideways and the eyes are downcast and a look of absolute incredulity forms. You’ve seen it I am sure. He used to be a serious specialist on CRM. Well, what do you think he said ……. Once he could speak ? Correct.
Then I gave him some more details, those that got this thread going, about losing the plot, switching off the A/P, etc etc. He just stared at me.
“oTd – are you joking ?” Wish I was.
Seems to me, with all due respect to the fellow who calls himself a camel (but is patently a management stooge, no doubt about it) every single operator ought to have thought of this type of situation long before they got caught out and - nearly - had an accident. Mixed nationalities can be big trouble, don’t they know that at Ryanair ? That is not a racist statement, it is the truth. It would be so easy to point a finger at the co-pilot, but that would prove nothing. To me, you have a very poor CRM system mate. Never mind all the other stuff about Ryanair.
One other point, do “agency” pilots undergo Ryanair CRM training and currency checks etc ? Just wondering.
oTd
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
One other point, do “agency” pilots undergo Ryanair CRM training and currency checks etc ? Just wondering.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
People, what is happening now is what happens when you can't get facts. Speculation, guesswork and rumour mongering become the order of the day.
Numerous appeals for facts have been made to the well informed Leo though it is abundantly clear that he was never, is not now, nor never will be able to provide facts that might be inconvenient to Ryanair.
Not only do we still not know quite a lot about the incident that is the subject of this thread, we don't even know if there will ever be an independent investigation of what took place.
There is no way that any facts on pilot turnover coming from Ryanair will be reliable - as anyone who has seen the Ryanair in-house publications will know - since the airline is absolutely commited to the story that pilots only leave other airlines to come to "the happiest airline in the universe, with the best rosters and best pay in the business".
Ryanair pilots could get out the rosters and with a fair bit of work identify the rather substantial turnover of pilots, but it would be too much work. Thus it is that the silly argument about numbers will keep going, which is typical of all such Ryanair arguments (i.e. a waste of time, since they allow various propagandists to throw accusations and insults at each other and get completely off the subject).
In the meantime the point of this thread will be lost. This demonstrate the Ryanair truism that if you stick at the game the way Ryanair does, you tend to keep enough people fooled to let you get away with whatever it is you want to get away with. People get fed up, confused or uninterested. Game over.
Looking that where this thread has ended up in the period since it started must gladen the heart of Leo. Go back and look at the posts that made him angry. Go back and look at the posts he choses to answer / not answer. Go back and look at his first post. Those are where Leo sees something in his interest. And then think.
Numerous appeals for facts have been made to the well informed Leo though it is abundantly clear that he was never, is not now, nor never will be able to provide facts that might be inconvenient to Ryanair.
Not only do we still not know quite a lot about the incident that is the subject of this thread, we don't even know if there will ever be an independent investigation of what took place.
There is no way that any facts on pilot turnover coming from Ryanair will be reliable - as anyone who has seen the Ryanair in-house publications will know - since the airline is absolutely commited to the story that pilots only leave other airlines to come to "the happiest airline in the universe, with the best rosters and best pay in the business".
Ryanair pilots could get out the rosters and with a fair bit of work identify the rather substantial turnover of pilots, but it would be too much work. Thus it is that the silly argument about numbers will keep going, which is typical of all such Ryanair arguments (i.e. a waste of time, since they allow various propagandists to throw accusations and insults at each other and get completely off the subject).
In the meantime the point of this thread will be lost. This demonstrate the Ryanair truism that if you stick at the game the way Ryanair does, you tend to keep enough people fooled to let you get away with whatever it is you want to get away with. People get fed up, confused or uninterested. Game over.
Looking that where this thread has ended up in the period since it started must gladen the heart of Leo. Go back and look at the posts that made him angry. Go back and look at the posts he choses to answer / not answer. Go back and look at his first post. Those are where Leo sees something in his interest. And then think.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
As an ex employee of FR, I have often posted replies to various threads but I am beginning to lose the will to live with all the bashing that goes on. Yes, I've bashed away at FR, I had every right to being on the receiving end of them once. Our friend Leo however, he's there at every opportunity. He clearly has nothing better to do that scour Pprune for FR threads and then post his imbalanced opinions.
Whoever this pilot is who lost his child recently, my sincere condolences. Events do happen. It's fact. It's what happens afterwards that scares the sh1te out of me when it comes to FR.
And before the mods start sending me emails threatening me with potential legal action from FR lawyers, please don't waste your time. I know what goes on at FR, it's why I resigned.
Whoever this pilot is who lost his child recently, my sincere condolences. Events do happen. It's fact. It's what happens afterwards that scares the sh1te out of me when it comes to FR.
And before the mods start sending me emails threatening me with potential legal action from FR lawyers, please don't waste your time. I know what goes on at FR, it's why I resigned.
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As far as the company being sympathetic with compassionate leave it is absolute horse**** that they are caring in any way my friend who is a capatain lost his father recently and was given one day to get to the funeral and back he asked for extra days but was told no they wouldnt even let him take it as leave!
they are a shower of s..t and its no wonder they are cancelling a thousand odd flights when the real reason is not due to the boeing strike but purely they dont have enough pilots,most of my mates are out of hours for march having done 900hrs and are looking to jump ship sick of the whole culture of keep beating the staff till mrale improves
they are a shower of s..t and its no wonder they are cancelling a thousand odd flights when the real reason is not due to the boeing strike but purely they dont have enough pilots,most of my mates are out of hours for march having done 900hrs and are looking to jump ship sick of the whole culture of keep beating the staff till mrale improves
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snam,will we just wait until everybody is being equally shafted and then it becomes ok,because that is where we are eventually headed and let those of you outside of ryanair face that reality.
Oh nice one SNAM! It's called the "Cosi Fan Tutti" defence of Ryanair - "everybody does it".
Well that may or may not be the case. I wouldn't know, but it does not excuse bad behaviour.
Well that may or may not be the case. I wouldn't know, but it does not excuse bad behaviour.
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SNAM behaviour that merits criticism should be criticised - regardless. I can't say that I agree with you that Ryanair is being criticised here "for the sake of it". There have been some telling points made in this thread. And telling points are what count.
I call you back
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Snam you are like Columbus, landing on the coast of a vast new continent and declaring it to be the Indies. I hope unlike him you live to understand.
Bravo. Welcome to...
India. AArrgghh....
We are the only ones who can make things change and improve, because the sharks running the Management of (any) airline will never stop taking advantage of us.
P.S. By the way, let's stop attaking RYANAIR
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SNAM,
Did you ever think that this treat may be the only thing we can do to prevent FR from further corroding european aviation?
No problem with low cost etc, but much problems with the way FR seems to create a no frills safety culture:
Training .....yeah we must but nothing more then the minimum required.
Human intrest......No, ludicrous, we're to large for that.
Safety culture.... of course as long as it does not interfere with the operation.
Just to name a few typical FR mindsets. I have said it many times before, but FR safety depends only on the crews individual need to survive, and is by no means the result of a safety oriented management. Whenever crew fails (and we do because we are human) there is no safety net anymore. Last but not least because of the FR way of operating many other airlines are forced to cut cost and gues where those cuts are made..........So it is in the intrest of all of us to stand firm against the FR interpretation of safety.
Nick,
Did you ever think that this treat may be the only thing we can do to prevent FR from further corroding european aviation?
No problem with low cost etc, but much problems with the way FR seems to create a no frills safety culture:
Training .....yeah we must but nothing more then the minimum required.
Human intrest......No, ludicrous, we're to large for that.
Safety culture.... of course as long as it does not interfere with the operation.
Just to name a few typical FR mindsets. I have said it many times before, but FR safety depends only on the crews individual need to survive, and is by no means the result of a safety oriented management. Whenever crew fails (and we do because we are human) there is no safety net anymore. Last but not least because of the FR way of operating many other airlines are forced to cut cost and gues where those cuts are made..........So it is in the intrest of all of us to stand firm against the FR interpretation of safety.
Nick,
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SNAM you ask a key question. There are two possible answers.
1. There are no complaints because their is nothing to complain about.
2. There are no complaints because the consequences of being associated with any form of complaint, or collective action, are to be avoided (whether the decision to keep a low profile is due to calculation, fear or complacency).
May I remind you that where pilots stood up to Ryanair - Dublin - escalation was the order of the day. One pilot (the second most senior in the airline) was falsely accused of intimidation and was subject to a series of court cases. (He is still flying and Ryanair paid the bills). Others pilots were sequentially targeted for different "offers" from Ryanair and from the various events that ensued over 250 complaints of "Victimisation in the Workplace" were lodged with a tribunal in Dublin. And the list goes on ... ending with an event in which a captain was demoted (an event that has been discussed by several contributors above).
In respect of every part of these developments Ryanair has used tactics that are well know and have been discussed here and elsewhere, namely agressive pursuit of "troublemakers", extensive use of the court system to escalate costs and induce nervousness - not to mention their declared objective of "delay everything in the courts till you all go away". (Declared in conversations to pilots, that is. They have stopped doing everyone the favour of putting their "observations" in writing).
A host of other signs and evidence are to be found for the interested - many documented here on pprune - such as the attempts to prevent the REPA website becoming a means by which Ryanair pilots can communicate with each other in privacy and anonymity (another failure).
It is, may I suggest, somewhat obvious that pilots might consider it wise to keep a low profile in such an environment.
JUST HOW MUCH EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED?
1. There are no complaints because their is nothing to complain about.
2. There are no complaints because the consequences of being associated with any form of complaint, or collective action, are to be avoided (whether the decision to keep a low profile is due to calculation, fear or complacency).
May I remind you that where pilots stood up to Ryanair - Dublin - escalation was the order of the day. One pilot (the second most senior in the airline) was falsely accused of intimidation and was subject to a series of court cases. (He is still flying and Ryanair paid the bills). Others pilots were sequentially targeted for different "offers" from Ryanair and from the various events that ensued over 250 complaints of "Victimisation in the Workplace" were lodged with a tribunal in Dublin. And the list goes on ... ending with an event in which a captain was demoted (an event that has been discussed by several contributors above).
In respect of every part of these developments Ryanair has used tactics that are well know and have been discussed here and elsewhere, namely agressive pursuit of "troublemakers", extensive use of the court system to escalate costs and induce nervousness - not to mention their declared objective of "delay everything in the courts till you all go away". (Declared in conversations to pilots, that is. They have stopped doing everyone the favour of putting their "observations" in writing).
A host of other signs and evidence are to be found for the interested - many documented here on pprune - such as the attempts to prevent the REPA website becoming a means by which Ryanair pilots can communicate with each other in privacy and anonymity (another failure).
It is, may I suggest, somewhat obvious that pilots might consider it wise to keep a low profile in such an environment.
JUST HOW MUCH EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED?
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I don't have a clue about what Ryanair does and does not, and I cannot see how they could possibly be blamed for not knowing that someone has just had a bereavemnt unless they were told of it.
However, to me, if the environment that company created was such that a pilot (generally speaking a safety-conscious bunch of people) felt compelled to report to work in an emotionally compromised state due to an environment that encourages flying while unfit, then it is rather sad and quite unacceptable. If such an environment did exist as claimed by some posters, then it sounds likely that the company did not (or does not) have the right attitude towards safety, considering it is fairly widely understood that severe physical or emotional stress is a potential flight safety risk.
Of course, one could say that the captain should have been aware of his compromised emotional state. However, if he felt that his job would be at risk if he reported sick, then it would have been difficult for him to report sick (even though, morally speaking, he should have done had he been aware of his compromised state and/or its potential safety implication). Or maybe he was not aware of his emotionally compromised state or its possible consequence - in which case, it could be a training issue (not just with the company concerned but with human factors training from the onset of flying training).
Either way, there may have been systematic problems that occurred - should the company behaved in a totally honorable manner, then it may have been the regulations, aviation medical, or training was at fault. This is not to totally exonerate the individual from his responsibility, but rarely would an incident occur without multiple factors involved.
However, to me, if the environment that company created was such that a pilot (generally speaking a safety-conscious bunch of people) felt compelled to report to work in an emotionally compromised state due to an environment that encourages flying while unfit, then it is rather sad and quite unacceptable. If such an environment did exist as claimed by some posters, then it sounds likely that the company did not (or does not) have the right attitude towards safety, considering it is fairly widely understood that severe physical or emotional stress is a potential flight safety risk.
Of course, one could say that the captain should have been aware of his compromised emotional state. However, if he felt that his job would be at risk if he reported sick, then it would have been difficult for him to report sick (even though, morally speaking, he should have done had he been aware of his compromised state and/or its potential safety implication). Or maybe he was not aware of his emotionally compromised state or its possible consequence - in which case, it could be a training issue (not just with the company concerned but with human factors training from the onset of flying training).
Either way, there may have been systematic problems that occurred - should the company behaved in a totally honorable manner, then it may have been the regulations, aviation medical, or training was at fault. This is not to totally exonerate the individual from his responsibility, but rarely would an incident occur without multiple factors involved.
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Finally, an investigation is announced
Well, the Italians are going to investigate it now, so we'll find out the truth.
Won't we?
Flight International has dragged a few details out from behind the scenes. Here's the link:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...fety+spat.html
And how Italy and Ireland between them can save the world from the scourge of the LCCs.
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...nly+human.html
hmmm...
Won't we?
Flight International has dragged a few details out from behind the scenes. Here's the link:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...fety+spat.html
And how Italy and Ireland between them can save the world from the scourge of the LCCs.
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...nly+human.html
hmmm...
Last edited by shortfinals; 24th Jan 2006 at 11:12.
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This is good news. LHC/MOL won't like this at all, now that the matter is out of the hands of their compliant lap dogs in Hawkins Street, control has been lost. You've "screwed up" all right Mick and I don't think you're gonna like the findings.
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Ryanair chief executive Michael O’Leary admits that the carrier “screwed up” by failing to send them the final draft of its report.
You've "screwed up" all right Mick and I don't think you're gonna like the findings.
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In fairness, I don't see many CEO's who would come out and honestly say this.
Ok, so let me get this clear in my head. Very serious incident occurs, airline says nothing to authority in whose jurisdiction it occurred, commissions internal report which leaves out crucial FDR data, "forgets" to hand final draft to IAA, gets rumbled in the press, IAA finally decides to investigate, the Italians finally get told and you think the CEO is being open and honest???
Not that I would expect anything else, as your previous posts mark you out as an unquestioning FR groupie. I suggest you try critical analysis.
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EI-CFC I have to agree with camelAir. When this broke I said in a post above that I had heard that MOL did well on the radio managing the P.R. aspects, but later I heard that pilots would have had a few queries for clarification. There have been constant rumours that this incident was "under investigated" (or that the Ryanair report did not tell all) and that key information had not seen the light of day. Most Ryanair pilots will have heard rumours with very specific information quoted. I don't know what the facts are, or not. But, to be absolutely honest, I don't really think that we can completely rely on Ryanair's version of events. An independent investigation will do nobody any harm.
By the way, the pilots seem to have been treated very reasonably by Ryanair. Since the airline is constantly criticised for its treatment of employees I think this should be acknowledged.
By the way, the pilots seem to have been treated very reasonably by Ryanair. Since the airline is constantly criticised for its treatment of employees I think this should be acknowledged.