Ryanair B738 loss of situational awareness and terrain clearance 07/09/05
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Re: Report: Ryanair pilot "froze" mid flight
Originally Posted by essexboy
I'm afraid I am with Leo and Norman on this one. Pilot incapacitation takes many forms. I am sure that the Captain involved wasn’t aware that he was unfit to fly and had no malice aforethought.
Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
Seems that the "office politics" should be put aside and the positive aspects of this case be mentioned, as some others have.
The system worked very successfully, from the sound of it. The "two communication rule" was a formal procedure in my past life: if the PNF questioned the actions ( or lack thereof ) of the PF, two attempts were made to get the PF's attention/response. If no response was apparent, the PNF took control of the airplane and the previous PF was not alowed to touch the controls again.
This type situation is extremely rare. The reasons for the captain being at work under his unfortunate state of mind are a separate issue.
The system worked very successfully, from the sound of it. The "two communication rule" was a formal procedure in my past life: if the PNF questioned the actions ( or lack thereof ) of the PF, two attempts were made to get the PF's attention/response. If no response was apparent, the PNF took control of the airplane and the previous PF was not alowed to touch the controls again.
This type situation is extremely rare. The reasons for the captain being at work under his unfortunate state of mind are a separate issue.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
Before the predictable tirade of Ryanair abuse begins
I beg to strongly disagree with leo the sometimes remarkably well informed line pilot's point of view. In deference to the crew members concerned I will only say that they went through a really difficult experience and, even if I had all the information, I would nothing to say about this particular incident.
But I will say this. This incident is one of several about which we have probably not heard the last. It is particularly interesting that our friend leo makes the following observation:
Once again, individual responsibility, or something that Ryanair is somehow responsible for?
Sorry to confirm your worst expectations leo but your take does not wash with me and the sooner all of these matters get properly aired and investigated the better. An "properly aired" does not mean here on prunne.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
LHC
Its rather gratifying (like when Princess Michael of Kent comes out with one of her idiotic "go back to where you came from" jibes) when unconscious / incompetent bigots make this kind of shallow disriminatory statement.
You either over estimate your private education or under estimate the quality of state schools.
I am state educated but have an MSc in Business Mangagement (University of Warwick)..... only ever mentioned when dealing with clowns like you.
Would be more than happy to discuss this with you in person...perhaps you could PM me. (This thread will be history by the time I next log onto PPRUNE).
and the evidently state educated Dim Repa
You either over estimate your private education or under estimate the quality of state schools.
I am state educated but have an MSc in Business Mangagement (University of Warwick)..... only ever mentioned when dealing with clowns like you.
Would be more than happy to discuss this with you in person...perhaps you could PM me. (This thread will be history by the time I next log onto PPRUNE).
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
We all know the culture that exists within ryanair.The fly or get fired rule.Delay or stop a flight at your own personal peril.This is why this guy was flying and make no mistake about it.This is a company where the crew controller has the power to make your life hell,should they see fit.
According to mol,the aircraft was operating within sop's,that is flying in moderate turbulence,with no radar on,no visible display on the nav display due to the fmc not being reprogrammed,no briefings,changes of runways,rushed approaches and still no briefings,no nav aids selected,total loss of situational awareness,fixation,breakdown in crew communications,near fatal loss of the aircraft.
The only thing sop about this mess was a new join captain flying with an inexperienced co-pilot.
Now tell me you would not mind if your wife,kids or family had been on that flight.
These pilots were lucky and but for a second of sanity saving the day we could now be looking at a very different picture in the low cost european market.
Come mol or leo,release the flight data and lets see the guts of it.
According to mol,the aircraft was operating within sop's,that is flying in moderate turbulence,with no radar on,no visible display on the nav display due to the fmc not being reprogrammed,no briefings,changes of runways,rushed approaches and still no briefings,no nav aids selected,total loss of situational awareness,fixation,breakdown in crew communications,near fatal loss of the aircraft.
The only thing sop about this mess was a new join captain flying with an inexperienced co-pilot.
Now tell me you would not mind if your wife,kids or family had been on that flight.
These pilots were lucky and but for a second of sanity saving the day we could now be looking at a very different picture in the low cost european market.
Come mol or leo,release the flight data and lets see the guts of it.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
I do tend to agree that a corporate culture may exist at any airline that causes a pilot to be worried about losing his job for calling in ''sick''. Whether that sickness is grief, sadness etc.
In the USA Aeronautical information manual (govt. publication) It lists a checklist of things to make you check yourself " fit for flight".
Illness
Medication
Stress
Alcohol
Fatigue
Emotional distress
Even the most experienced pilots must check these things. SADLY, I do believe that many airlines do pressure pilots to fly to make schedule regardless of problems.
BACK in the good old days, a union pilot could walk off a trip and say I can't fly today and that would be that. When able he could resume his job.
You give up something in a low cost carrier, You really do!
jon
medically grounded former 737 captain (pinched nerve sort of things ) I'm in the USA and have never even seen a ryanair plane in person.
fly safely out there and good for the copilot...trouble is he should have spoken up way before being established on the approach. This ''late'' go around diversion does not speak well for ryanair in my book
In the USA Aeronautical information manual (govt. publication) It lists a checklist of things to make you check yourself " fit for flight".
Illness
Medication
Stress
Alcohol
Fatigue
Emotional distress
Even the most experienced pilots must check these things. SADLY, I do believe that many airlines do pressure pilots to fly to make schedule regardless of problems.
BACK in the good old days, a union pilot could walk off a trip and say I can't fly today and that would be that. When able he could resume his job.
You give up something in a low cost carrier, You really do!
jon
medically grounded former 737 captain (pinched nerve sort of things ) I'm in the USA and have never even seen a ryanair plane in person.
fly safely out there and good for the copilot...trouble is he should have spoken up way before being established on the approach. This ''late'' go around diversion does not speak well for ryanair in my book
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
retain the right to dislike ryanair,BUT....
if all emergencies in all airlines were handled this well,would,nt it be wonderful!
well done the copilot, and a good return on the training....
if all emergencies in all airlines were handled this well,would,nt it be wonderful!
well done the copilot, and a good return on the training....
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
I knew a skipper once who was flying a B737 into a regional UK airport that he wasn't familiar with. On finals, he froze up, aborted landing. On third attempt, FO took control. Plenty of runway, just a mild wind, nothing unusual.
Turns out it was the anniversary of his fathers death and something had triggered his grief. He lost his nerve and concentration temporarily and couldn't land it.
He was and still is I believe one of the most swithced on skippers I had ever flown with. Something just got to him that day.
There are reasons you rarely see a commercial flight flown solo.
Turns out it was the anniversary of his fathers death and something had triggered his grief. He lost his nerve and concentration temporarily and couldn't land it.
He was and still is I believe one of the most swithced on skippers I had ever flown with. Something just got to him that day.
There are reasons you rarely see a commercial flight flown solo.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
Sorry grim repa, when I needed compassionate leave I got in no problem. They might be bad but not that bad.
Like all incidents this was a combination of factors. The weather was very bad, cb's everywhere. Planes were all about trying to take avoiding action. The radio was manic. They had a late r/w change offered a circling to 33 CIA. They took a look at it and didnt like what they saw. Went to divert to Pescara when ATC offered them left base FLU. Then things started to go very wrong. They were not set up for FLU. Had severe turbulance. Captain decided the autopilot could not handle the turbulance and disconnected. Trying to handle the aircraft in these conditions he became overloaded.
It was a bad incident but not Ryanairs fault.
Like all incidents this was a combination of factors. The weather was very bad, cb's everywhere. Planes were all about trying to take avoiding action. The radio was manic. They had a late r/w change offered a circling to 33 CIA. They took a look at it and didnt like what they saw. Went to divert to Pescara when ATC offered them left base FLU. Then things started to go very wrong. They were not set up for FLU. Had severe turbulance. Captain decided the autopilot could not handle the turbulance and disconnected. Trying to handle the aircraft in these conditions he became overloaded.
It was a bad incident but not Ryanairs fault.
Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
The theoretical name for this situation is called the "double bind" and it has been implicated in the onset of schizophrenia.
The double bind requires that you follow two mutually exclusive injunctions, or believe two mutually exclusive things at the same time.
as in:
1: I must fly the maximum hours and not report sick or I will be punished.
2: I must not pilot an aircraft while unfit (the IMSAFE Mantra) or I will be punished.
If you are caught in a double bind, as it appears the pilot was, and you have an accident, your employer will piously say exactly what Mr. Camel has said, and I quote:
"This man shouldn't have been flying at all, having suffered the death of a child in very recent days preceding this incident. The question is, why was he flying? His decision to report for duty is the relevant issue here. Once again, individual responsibility, or something that Ryanair is somehow responsible for?"
This is the third thread I am aware of that has discussed similar matters at Ryanair:
1: The pilot who made an unstabilised approach and later cited "stress" as the cause.
2. The pilot who was disciplined for refusing to fly after citing 'fatigue".
and now this.
I am aware of another thread containing a Ryanair memo that expresses a rather forceful opinion about the undesirability of absence from work.
To put it as tactfully as I can to avoid the wrath of moderators and of course Ryanair's army of lawyers, could the man in question have been flying because he had formed the obviously incorrect opinion that Ryanair would have regarded his absence as a punishable offence?
The double bind requires that you follow two mutually exclusive injunctions, or believe two mutually exclusive things at the same time.
as in:
1: I must fly the maximum hours and not report sick or I will be punished.
2: I must not pilot an aircraft while unfit (the IMSAFE Mantra) or I will be punished.
If you are caught in a double bind, as it appears the pilot was, and you have an accident, your employer will piously say exactly what Mr. Camel has said, and I quote:
"This man shouldn't have been flying at all, having suffered the death of a child in very recent days preceding this incident. The question is, why was he flying? His decision to report for duty is the relevant issue here. Once again, individual responsibility, or something that Ryanair is somehow responsible for?"
This is the third thread I am aware of that has discussed similar matters at Ryanair:
1: The pilot who made an unstabilised approach and later cited "stress" as the cause.
2. The pilot who was disciplined for refusing to fly after citing 'fatigue".
and now this.
I am aware of another thread containing a Ryanair memo that expresses a rather forceful opinion about the undesirability of absence from work.
To put it as tactfully as I can to avoid the wrath of moderators and of course Ryanair's army of lawyers, could the man in question have been flying because he had formed the obviously incorrect opinion that Ryanair would have regarded his absence as a punishable offence?
Last edited by Sunfish; 12th Jan 2006 at 22:23.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
I can't comment on the mental state or thought processes of the Captain prior to reporting for duty but I can say "Very Well Done" to the FO.
I am a little puzzled as to the rationale behind putting said FO in the sim after the event to regain his confidence and composure though. I would have thought that the incident would have served to increase his confidence in both himself and the system which both appear to have worked as advertised.
My previous airline was not always the best at man management but they had an incident not too long ago when the Captain was incapacitated in the cruise (DXB to Far East) and the relatively inexperienced FO got a "field commission" to Captain somewhere south of KHI. Having got an on board Drs assessment of the captains condition he declared a Pan, turned back to DXB, got a cabin attendant to read the checklists and generally did an extremely good job. The airline rewarded him with a signed diploma of appreciation from the board and he got his piccy in the company rag receiving it.
Needless to say, neither his confidence nor his composure needed "reinforcing" with any simulator sessions and he was happily back in the saddle after his normal post flight rest.
I am a little puzzled as to the rationale behind putting said FO in the sim after the event to regain his confidence and composure though. I would have thought that the incident would have served to increase his confidence in both himself and the system which both appear to have worked as advertised.
My previous airline was not always the best at man management but they had an incident not too long ago when the Captain was incapacitated in the cruise (DXB to Far East) and the relatively inexperienced FO got a "field commission" to Captain somewhere south of KHI. Having got an on board Drs assessment of the captains condition he declared a Pan, turned back to DXB, got a cabin attendant to read the checklists and generally did an extremely good job. The airline rewarded him with a signed diploma of appreciation from the board and he got his piccy in the company rag receiving it.
Needless to say, neither his confidence nor his composure needed "reinforcing" with any simulator sessions and he was happily back in the saddle after his normal post flight rest.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
This is the story that appeared in some of the newspapers in Ireland. This from the Irish Examiner, and it was also the lead on yesterdays evening herald.
Pilot's cockpit breakdown prompts new Ryanair safety policy
12/01/2006 - 12:15:59
Ryanair pilots are stood down from flying duties for safety reasons following family bereavements after a captain suffered a breakdown in the cockpit days after burying one of his children, it emerged today.
The procedure was introduced last year after the pilot froze on approach to Rome’s Fiumicino Airport and failed to act to correct a dangerous descent.
A relatively inexperienced co-pilot grabbed the controls, averting disaster.
Michael O’Leary, Ryanair chief executive, revealed that since the incident it is obligatory for pilots to inform the company of a death in the family. They are then stood down on compassionate grounds.
“What we’ve since done is implemented a procedure that makes it mandatory for every pilot to advise the company if they have a bereavement in the family, in which case they will then receive compassionate leave and won’t be put in a situation that this captain was in this case,” he said.
Mr O’Leary insisted the plane was not close to crashing.
“I think the important thing to say is that this aircraft didn’t crash, or come near to a crash,” he said.
Ryanair insisted the policy reaffirmed company procedure to allow staff time off following a death.
An Irish Aviation Authority spokeswoman said Ryanair notified them of the incident within a day of it happening. A full report has since been sent to the IAA.
The incident occurred on an unspecified date in 2005, only days after the pilot had buried one of his children.
In the final approach to the airport, the plane was in a precarious situation. It was being buffeted in a thunderstorm, was badly off-target for the runway and was flying too low and too fast to make a safe landing.
A Ryanair report into the incident revealed the autopilot had been turned off and the pilots were unsure where exactly they were in relation to the runway.
As alarms went off warning of a possible crash, the first officer, a junior pilot, prompted the captain to see if he was in control.
Getting no response as the plane neared the ground, he intervened and increased the power suddenly, pulling the plane out of the approach and up into a climb to a safe altitude. The plane eventually landed at Pescara Airport outside Rome.
Mr O’Leary said the co-pilot had followed safety procedures to the letter, taking control of the plane when the pilot failed to respond to warnings.
He insisted none of the company’s standard operating procedures had changed since the incident.
“They’re there to avoid human error and we all make mistakes. I think the critical thing that came out in this report is that a captain was flying an aircraft a number of days after a bereavement in the family,” Mr O’Leary said.
“We’ve operated a system of compassionate leave in Ryanair for many years to cover these cases, but each person or each individual responds differently to bereavement. Some prefer to go to work and some people don’t.”
Mr O’Leary added that both the pilot and co-pilot had been given compassionate leave and underwent counselling and retraining following the incident.
No passenger on board the aircraft would have been aware of the incident.
Pilot's cockpit breakdown prompts new Ryanair safety policy
12/01/2006 - 12:15:59
Ryanair pilots are stood down from flying duties for safety reasons following family bereavements after a captain suffered a breakdown in the cockpit days after burying one of his children, it emerged today.
The procedure was introduced last year after the pilot froze on approach to Rome’s Fiumicino Airport and failed to act to correct a dangerous descent.
A relatively inexperienced co-pilot grabbed the controls, averting disaster.
Michael O’Leary, Ryanair chief executive, revealed that since the incident it is obligatory for pilots to inform the company of a death in the family. They are then stood down on compassionate grounds.
“What we’ve since done is implemented a procedure that makes it mandatory for every pilot to advise the company if they have a bereavement in the family, in which case they will then receive compassionate leave and won’t be put in a situation that this captain was in this case,” he said.
Mr O’Leary insisted the plane was not close to crashing.
“I think the important thing to say is that this aircraft didn’t crash, or come near to a crash,” he said.
Ryanair insisted the policy reaffirmed company procedure to allow staff time off following a death.
An Irish Aviation Authority spokeswoman said Ryanair notified them of the incident within a day of it happening. A full report has since been sent to the IAA.
The incident occurred on an unspecified date in 2005, only days after the pilot had buried one of his children.
In the final approach to the airport, the plane was in a precarious situation. It was being buffeted in a thunderstorm, was badly off-target for the runway and was flying too low and too fast to make a safe landing.
A Ryanair report into the incident revealed the autopilot had been turned off and the pilots were unsure where exactly they were in relation to the runway.
As alarms went off warning of a possible crash, the first officer, a junior pilot, prompted the captain to see if he was in control.
Getting no response as the plane neared the ground, he intervened and increased the power suddenly, pulling the plane out of the approach and up into a climb to a safe altitude. The plane eventually landed at Pescara Airport outside Rome.
Mr O’Leary said the co-pilot had followed safety procedures to the letter, taking control of the plane when the pilot failed to respond to warnings.
He insisted none of the company’s standard operating procedures had changed since the incident.
“They’re there to avoid human error and we all make mistakes. I think the critical thing that came out in this report is that a captain was flying an aircraft a number of days after a bereavement in the family,” Mr O’Leary said.
“We’ve operated a system of compassionate leave in Ryanair for many years to cover these cases, but each person or each individual responds differently to bereavement. Some prefer to go to work and some people don’t.”
Mr O’Leary added that both the pilot and co-pilot had been given compassionate leave and underwent counselling and retraining following the incident.
No passenger on board the aircraft would have been aware of the incident.
viva Osh Vegas
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
"Ryanair pilots are stood down from flying duties for safety reasons following family bereavements after a captain"
Bereavements are, sadly, not uncommon occurrences. The company has been established for plenty long enough for the HR department to have thought through all the "what if" situations and the follow up procedures prior to this poor pilot putting him/herself through the mill.
Going on the info given, it sounds like the HR department failed in their responsibility of having in place a procedure to cover just such a situation.
I hope all companies learn from this and if not already there, work out how this situation should be handled prior to the poor bereaved person having to deal with it themselves.
Bereavements are, sadly, not uncommon occurrences. The company has been established for plenty long enough for the HR department to have thought through all the "what if" situations and the follow up procedures prior to this poor pilot putting him/herself through the mill.
Going on the info given, it sounds like the HR department failed in their responsibility of having in place a procedure to cover just such a situation.
I hope all companies learn from this and if not already there, work out how this situation should be handled prior to the poor bereaved person having to deal with it themselves.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
First...good work to the FO! I once flew for a 135 outfit that had a small pilot pool (5 including the chief pilot). Equipment was mainly chieftains and seneca's. Had a guy scheduled for a flight on a seneca whose mother was seriously ill. He requested that I fly right seat with him and keep an eye out in case of any problems. He, also, probably shouldn't have been flying at all, but in the "on-demand-hour building" charter business sometimes you had no choice. At least he recognized the problem and sought help.
I would have thought that commercial carriers (like every other corporation I have worked for) already HAD bereavement leave?
I would have thought that commercial carriers (like every other corporation I have worked for) already HAD bereavement leave?
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
I know that everyone favourite pasttime is Ryanair bashing, but i recently was invited over there for a 'chat' abotu some business. In the course of the conversation, it was admitted that the very, very worse thing for the airline would be for one the aircraft to go down.
The public impression of low cost includes low cost maintenance etc etc, so for a Ryanair plane to go down, the damage would be exponentially worse than for a BA or other major airline.
To that end, they do have several procedures for bereavements and other emotional issues for crew - they dont expect people to fly whatever happens in their personal lives.
That said, its obvious that they extract their pound of flesh from the crews, but then they are one of the most profitable airlines in the world.
Before anyone asks, i dont work for them, but i find it odd that people blame the culture immediately, when it is quite obvious that this captain had a problem, his F/O took over and did his job. The real question is what support Ryanair are giving this poor guy.
The public impression of low cost includes low cost maintenance etc etc, so for a Ryanair plane to go down, the damage would be exponentially worse than for a BA or other major airline.
To that end, they do have several procedures for bereavements and other emotional issues for crew - they dont expect people to fly whatever happens in their personal lives.
That said, its obvious that they extract their pound of flesh from the crews, but then they are one of the most profitable airlines in the world.
Before anyone asks, i dont work for them, but i find it odd that people blame the culture immediately, when it is quite obvious that this captain had a problem, his F/O took over and did his job. The real question is what support Ryanair are giving this poor guy.
Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
This thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=201127 addressed the same core issues.
Hats off to MOL - in this situation, he's proven himself to be a good leader. Exactly the right response.
Hats off to MOL - in this situation, he's proven himself to be a good leader. Exactly the right response.
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Re: Report: Pilot "froze" mid flight
If Ryanair send you on this leave do get normal pay? I believe that the flight pay at Ryanair to be a large portion of the pay so you will be financially punished. Is this a correct assumption?