Emirates A340-300 incident @ JoBurg. Report is public
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Missing Page 29 now no Longer Missing
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Originally Posted by BYMONEK
We do have deficiencies in training which i'm not prepared to go into on a public forum but there's one thing that stands out like a dog's balls.The sooner we as a Company can openly and honestly admit these errors and pass on lessons learned to our very own pilots then the better it will be for all involved. We are quick to use other Airlines accidents as case studies in CRM but our own habit of brushing problems nearer to home under the carpet, prevents us from dealing with far more relevant issues.
Still waiting for the detailed report.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Please don't use WINRAR compression
I appreciate very much the posting of the report, but as a minor point would request that the WINRAR compression not be used in the future.
It saves about 10% file size (trivial) but requires downloading and installing the WINRAR program. Now when I right-click on Start I have four unwanted WINRAR commands that it stealthily added and that I do not want. What else did this obnoxious program do?
Almost nothing is worth adding potentially dangerous programs like this, and it's certainly not worth saving 10% file size.
-- Mike
It saves about 10% file size (trivial) but requires downloading and installing the WINRAR program. Now when I right-click on Start I have four unwanted WINRAR commands that it stealthily added and that I do not want. What else did this obnoxious program do?
Almost nothing is worth adding potentially dangerous programs like this, and it's certainly not worth saving 10% file size.
-- Mike
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Streamline cannot be wrong, he must have used the best programme.
It is becoming a poinless thread. Someone has an axe to grind and unfortunately cannot see the wood for the trees.
There are some ill informed anti-airbus comments,mainly from the ill informed.
There are some ill informed anti-airbus comments,mainly from the ill informed.
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2dotsright
I really haven't got the time or enthusiasm to read the 5 pages of posts here, just a few of them, however I feel I need to post something here myself. I flew with the Captain of this flight when he was an F/O and he was and is a very good operator, not to mention a good bloke to go with that. He has been treated like s--t since this incident by EK management (surprise surprise) The whole thing is an arse covering exercise by all concerned, I'd give him a job with any airline I ever ran anyway. Good Luck Mate.
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Originally Posted by Mike Dornheim
I appreciate very much the posting of the report, but as a minor point would request that the WINRAR compression not be used in the future.
-- Mike
-- Mike
I will get it in PDF format and add some more interesting reports.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Originally Posted by Streamline
I will get it in PDF format and add some more interesting reports.
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Very Telling!
Hi All,
Just been reading the PDF Jo'burg report. Thanks DD for posting it.
It's the first time I've seen it. It's published on a pilot rumour website, I work for EK and am flying the 340
Read that paragraph again. It says it all about this outfit
Just been reading the PDF Jo'burg report. Thanks DD for posting it.
It's the first time I've seen it. It's published on a pilot rumour website, I work for EK and am flying the 340
Read that paragraph again. It says it all about this outfit
Join Date: May 2000
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A good report that makes some very valid points. Thanks DD for the link.
I pity the crew though; they had about 15 seconds to sort out a rotation gone wrong before they hit the lights - and the investigation analysed their actions for 8 months and produced 68 pages of report. It did say some nice things about the crew, but who would want to be a pilot nowdays?
I would like to suggest that Airbus could be partly to blame by putting either too much or too little information on the PFD.
I was taught to rotate by pulling, pushing kicking or shoving - whatever it took - to move the nose up at 3 degrees per second, and to make sure the wheels were off the ground before I got to 10 degrees nose up. Pretty simple and it worked, so as the report suggests, who the hell needs the SSOI for rotation?
On the other hand, if it is so tremendously important to apply 2/3 back stick, then how about marking that position on the PFD as a reference. The corners of the envelope are already marked, so it would not be difficult to do with the software.
(Reminds me of another little trick that crept in to become SOPs. A certain Asian airline thought winding in heaps of rudder trim was a great thing for crosswind takeoffs or landings in the B747).
I pity the crew though; they had about 15 seconds to sort out a rotation gone wrong before they hit the lights - and the investigation analysed their actions for 8 months and produced 68 pages of report. It did say some nice things about the crew, but who would want to be a pilot nowdays?
I would like to suggest that Airbus could be partly to blame by putting either too much or too little information on the PFD.
I was taught to rotate by pulling, pushing kicking or shoving - whatever it took - to move the nose up at 3 degrees per second, and to make sure the wheels were off the ground before I got to 10 degrees nose up. Pretty simple and it worked, so as the report suggests, who the hell needs the SSOI for rotation?
On the other hand, if it is so tremendously important to apply 2/3 back stick, then how about marking that position on the PFD as a reference. The corners of the envelope are already marked, so it would not be difficult to do with the software.
(Reminds me of another little trick that crept in to become SOPs. A certain Asian airline thought winding in heaps of rudder trim was a great thing for crosswind takeoffs or landings in the B747).
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Desert Dingo
Your post is okay until you try and BLAME Airbus! They do NOT suggest using the Stick Position Indicator for the rotate. It is purely there so that you can see what inputs the PF is applying whilst PNF. The 2/3rds back stick is required and important it will give you the required 2-3 degrees per second, if you apply it smoothly and do not "snatch" it there. (just like you move the yoke on a Boeing or any other aircraft! You should not be using the SPI to give you the 2/3rds position either, look outside and cross check your ATTITUDE on the PFD as you get airborne. Probably what you were advocating in your "pulling......etc" comment.
The fault seems more of a "training" issue / lack of understanding by the person that devised the training for EK.
There certainly was a misunderstanding by the captain in this case and not all his fault, if at all.
Your post is okay until you try and BLAME Airbus! They do NOT suggest using the Stick Position Indicator for the rotate. It is purely there so that you can see what inputs the PF is applying whilst PNF. The 2/3rds back stick is required and important it will give you the required 2-3 degrees per second, if you apply it smoothly and do not "snatch" it there. (just like you move the yoke on a Boeing or any other aircraft! You should not be using the SPI to give you the 2/3rds position either, look outside and cross check your ATTITUDE on the PFD as you get airborne. Probably what you were advocating in your "pulling......etc" comment.
The fault seems more of a "training" issue / lack of understanding by the person that devised the training for EK.
There certainly was a misunderstanding by the captain in this case and not all his fault, if at all.
A very thorough report.
The only thing I can think of adding is that the pilot's very first takeoff in type was at night.
I wonder how many SOPs call for transfering to the PFD/AH as primary pitch reference at rotation for night time takeoffs?
Daylight would likely have provided an abundance of visual clues that more rotation was required.
The only thing I can think of adding is that the pilot's very first takeoff in type was at night.
I wonder how many SOPs call for transfering to the PFD/AH as primary pitch reference at rotation for night time takeoffs?
Daylight would likely have provided an abundance of visual clues that more rotation was required.
