Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Originally Posted by Lon More
Was wondering that myself. Of course it could be flow control
. In the past I've seen Amsterdam Manchester flights route via Copenhagen and Scottish airspace
Couldn't find anything on this with Google
. In the past I've seen Amsterdam Manchester flights route via Copenhagen and Scottish airspaceCouldn't find anything on this with Google
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Sorry for highjacking this thread, but:
Are you serious? 
Originally Posted by Lon More
In the past I've seen Amsterdam Manchester flights route via Copenhagen and Scottish airspace:
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Are you serious?
Due flow restrictions in the UK some years ago. Depart Amsterdam to the North , enter Copenhagen airspace at GREFI, then via DANDI across to SAB in Scotland, then via DCS south again to Manchester. It didn't happen often and we never worked out just who the restriction was protecting as the traffic ended up in the same airspace.
Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Much as I remember making Brussels - Birmingham flights via the North Sea and the blue way direction Manchester, then south to Brum. Added about 10-15 mins on the flight, depending on ATC shortcuts between OTR and Brum.
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Norwegian Company Avinor was managing the sector, and apparently their employees have had some staffing issues lately.
The amount of leave owed to ARTOs is now so huge that it will be impossible to ever pay it back to them in the form of time off.
They are stretched beyond snapping point, it is affecting their home lives and appears to be affecting the quality of the ATC service they are able to provide. These guys & gals are desperate.
Avinor management is constantly changeing & floudering.
ATCwatcher might well be correct in his assumption as to why this has been leaked to the media, at the same time, the whole ATC question is such a hot potatoe here in Norway that even the general public has started to take a keen interest in anything ATC related.
More than just an ATCO
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Flaps As you said, this has been going on for a long time. Avinor make Serco and others appear positively benign. How can any ATC provider attempt to justify manning a sector with only one controller with present traffic levels. Have the lessons of Uberlingen been forgotten so quickly?? Myself and others were very quick to attack Sky TV for their simplistic approach to aviation safety last week, however a mid-air could occur anywhere. The second controller on a sector, call him/her a Planner, Co-ordinator, Assistant, whatever, is a vital safety back-up and monitor. I have sometimes seen three, or more, of us on one really busy sector; one talking, one co-ordinating and one just watching, ready to warn of any problems.
A bit more understanding and subsequent airing of the problems would not come amiss, especially from the airspace users who are in a position to exert considerable pressure on the provider.
Apologies for Rant, but this is an intolerable situation
A bit more understanding and subsequent airing of the problems would not come amiss, especially from the airspace users who are in a position to exert considerable pressure on the provider.
Apologies for Rant, but this is an intolerable situation
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Originally Posted by Doug E Style
Pardon my ignorance but why would a KLM flight going to Germany be in Norwegian airspace? Or is this an error in reporting?
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Originally Posted by Beanbag
Trondheim is in Norway, not Germany, which probably explains it
Trondheim is not my favourite place as some Norwegian Trolls are still pursuing me in the UK for for a 4 Euro road toll that they claim was due at open tollbooths on the E6 at 4am in the morning. The only reason I was still driving at 4am was because hotels in Trondheim turned out to cost about 140 Euros a night upwards. They claim that these road tolls are enforceable in the uk county court through some weird treaty Norway has signed even though it isn't even part of the EU. By the way Nordkap at the top of Norway was great with perfect midnight sun when I finally got there.
I imagine that these days pilots are much better about following TCAS instructions to the letter, especially as that Air Crash Investigation program involving the DHL and Russian aircraft over Switzerland have made it rather clear what can happen if pilots simply go with their own hunch and/or blindly follow air traffic controller instructions.
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Isn't it worth 4 euro to get them off your back? If they did manage to get a county court judgement the costs could suddenly be 400-800 euro quite easily.
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Originally Posted by EFP058
/me is speechless...
Guess IŽll have to go ahead and hack it into the FMC tonight just to visualize that routing.
Guess IŽll have to go ahead and hack it into the FMC tonight just to visualize that routing.
Quite a detour IŽd say...
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
CPI or CPA is closest point of impact or approach. If an RA was issued then the CPA was less than the previous mentioned "seconds from disaster". What I'm saying is that the media has a tendency to hype up events regarding aviation and that a "close to collision" isn't really as close as one would think. I've had several TA's and RA's myself, and looking at it objectivly there is really no reason for panic. Of course you follow the RA as it comes. But to blow up an RA in the media as a close to collision event is to overdramatize it all, especially if we're talking 40 seconds away. I could finish my lunch in that time 
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
It seems like it's not only the press who have problems getting the terms and facts correct. CPI? Must be some dialect I presume.
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
The facts, as released:
1. SAS vs KLM
2. FL340 close to SVA (Svensheia) VOR/DME, which is in Sector West at Oslo ATCC
3. Planner is not used at Oslo, at any enroute sectors, due to lack of personell. Stavanger ATCC has started to use planners, but due to lack of personell, they might have to go back to only ATSAs.
4. STCA might have malfunctioned. (According to Avinor)
Ahh, and yes.....
.....all but one of Norways 22 ATC units are short of controllers. Some very short. I only got 3 of 5 weeks holiday last year, and that's normal.
Good thing: We have managed to oust the old Avinor management (the one that startet a crazy cost cutting program 3 years ago) Things are looking better, but the staffing situation is going to get worse before it gets better. They stopped traning in 2003, next class to reach production is january 2008 (est)
Work in Norway anyone?
1. SAS vs KLM
2. FL340 close to SVA (Svensheia) VOR/DME, which is in Sector West at Oslo ATCC
3. Planner is not used at Oslo, at any enroute sectors, due to lack of personell. Stavanger ATCC has started to use planners, but due to lack of personell, they might have to go back to only ATSAs.
4. STCA might have malfunctioned. (According to Avinor)
Ahh, and yes.....
.....all but one of Norways 22 ATC units are short of controllers. Some very short. I only got 3 of 5 weeks holiday last year, and that's normal.
Good thing: We have managed to oust the old Avinor management (the one that startet a crazy cost cutting program 3 years ago) Things are looking better, but the staffing situation is going to get worse before it gets better. They stopped traning in 2003, next class to reach production is january 2008 (est)
Work in Norway anyone?
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Hi There The Sep Distance Between The Two A/c Was Acceptable I Think It Works Out At Just Over 5 Miles If Im Correct So There Was Plenty Of Time For Both Pilots And The Atc'r To Sort Out The Problem
Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Sorry to disagree, here, but where I learned to control 5nm was the minimum, and that being a monitored controlled event. In terminal airspace with the appropriate radar systems, that reduces to 3, in control zones that may be further reduced by visual observation. If the TCAS produces an RA, either someone is not where they are supposed to be, the air traffic services have failed, or it is a false alarm.
To suggest there was plenty of "seperation" because TCAS maybe saved the day is irresponsible.
There are times TCAS doesn't work as intended.Earlier versions had a 1:50 chance of actually causing a collision.(better odds than no protection, still) My more "techy" colleagues may know more about this.
As a controller a lot of what I get paid for involves making sure it doesn't go off, or if it is likely to -common in an aerodrome environment - pre warn the crew of nearby traffic.
I really feel for you lot in Norway.
To suggest there was plenty of "seperation" because TCAS maybe saved the day is irresponsible.
There are times TCAS doesn't work as intended.Earlier versions had a 1:50 chance of actually causing a collision.(better odds than no protection, still) My more "techy" colleagues may know more about this.
As a controller a lot of what I get paid for involves making sure it doesn't go off, or if it is likely to -common in an aerodrome environment - pre warn the crew of nearby traffic.
I really feel for you lot in Norway.
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Originally Posted by markjoy
. If the TCAS produces an RA, either someone is not where they are supposed to be, the air traffic services have failed, or it is a false alarm.
Another problem for instance, is that at high altitude CPAs are such that RAs will start with distances over 6NM , affecting among other perfectly separated aircrfat with 5NM.
In BRNAV and RVSM airspace those 2 cases for instance are causing may RAs that are not falling into your 3 categories. These are not false alarms .
And this is part of the problem surrounding TCAS : not every RA is a " real " one and some people, both ATCOS and Pilots, are tempted to select which one they like.
Back to the topic : with " 40 seconds to disaster" ( that should be 35 seconds to be correct ) with 90 degree angle, those 2 a/c could have been 5 NM appart, so no big deal. What would be interesing to know is what would have been the separation if both a/c had followed the ATC clearances they received . Then you can debate.
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Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
Originally Posted by M609
The facts, as released:
2. FL340 close to SVA (Svensheia) VOR/DME, which is in Sector West at Oslo
2. FL340 close to SVA (Svensheia) VOR/DME, which is in Sector West at Oslo
Originally Posted by M609
4. STCA might have malfunctioned. (According to Avinor)
Re: Big news in Sweden today: 40 sec from disaster
ATC watcher,
Absolutely true. I neglected to add those additional cases to the TCAS alerts. I have found in practice that pilots tend to moderate descent rate at the TA, or following the controller's advice of nearby traffic. That usually prevents the RA from occurring. At least in our patch of sky.
As to what the clearance to the pilots was, and what would have been the result had they continue to fly those clearances...does anybody know that yet?
My point is that had the clearances been to continue toward each other at 90 degrees/same level, the fact that TCAS provided the space does not a seperation make, as seem to be implied by some posts.
Absolutely true. I neglected to add those additional cases to the TCAS alerts. I have found in practice that pilots tend to moderate descent rate at the TA, or following the controller's advice of nearby traffic. That usually prevents the RA from occurring. At least in our patch of sky.
As to what the clearance to the pilots was, and what would have been the result had they continue to fly those clearances...does anybody know that yet?
My point is that had the clearances been to continue toward each other at 90 degrees/same level, the fact that TCAS provided the space does not a seperation make, as seem to be implied by some posts.