Ohh goodie let’s all be secure now

[N380UA]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Security screeners at 32 U.S. airports failed to detect most knives and simulated explosives -- and one of every three guns -- that federal investigators tried to smuggle past security checkpoints in tests after the September 11 attacks, a government official said Monday. . .. . <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/25/airport.security/index.html" target="_blank">CNN</a>

[Tripower455]

I'll bet that during these tests, no flight crew got past them with tweezers or God forbid, a leatherman tool!. .. .This should be no surprise to anyone in the industry. . .. .As a result of these tests, pilots will be harassed more, "in the name of security". . .. .Meanwhile, on the ramp, anyone can STILL bring whatever they want to without screening.........

[Scottie]

Tripower,. .. .If you had thought about it seriously (which I doubt) a terrorist will exploit any weakness.. .. .Leatherman or not. I agree about the ramp though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[Tripower455]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> If you had thought about it seriously (which I doubt) a terrorist will exploit any weakness.. . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">A bit uncalled for, don't you think? . .. .Are you a pilot? . .. .What in my post indicates that I haven't given this much thought? . .. .I deal with this nonsense every day at work, and guess what? I don't feel any more secure!. .. .If you had given this issue ANY thought at all, you'd see the ridiculousness of taking my tweezers when there are still HUGE, easily exploited holes (weaknesses?) in the "security" system. Not to mention the fact that even after the pilferage of my personal toiletries, I am STILL able to do whatever I want to with the aircraft. It comes down to that either I am a trusted part of the system, or I am not. Or it could be for eyewash purposes only that I get harassed on a daily basis. Which do you think it is.. .. .If the powers that be were actually concerned with security, rather than public placating eyewash, we would have at the very least gotten REAL ID cards to cover that weakness in the system....... Multi day passholders at Disney World have better ID cards than we do. They are confirmed with electronic fingerprint. . .. .Our ID is confirmed in what way?. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 00:50: Message edited by: Tripower455 ]</small>

[Captain Speeking]

Scottie. .. .If you were to have seen his previous posts you would understand that this guy has a persecution complex where security is concerned. He complains about having his toiletries searched (even pilfered!)but ridicules those who try to improve their lamentable security which was so devistatingly exposed.. .. .Remember these people have had their heads in the sand for years where airline security is concerned. They still can't bear to see the light.. .. .Sadly those of us with terrorists on our doorsteps for 30 years or more have a more sanguine approach.

[Send Clowns]

Perhaps someone could explain the point of taking a nail file off a person who must, by law, have an axe stowed to be easily accessible on the bulkhead behind their seat? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> This is without considering who has control of the aircraft for normal operations.

[sweeper]

yes ,send clowns.. .maybe they are afraid if we operated together, i would attack you with my bic safety razor..(in a hurry my wife says i can do terrible damage with it). .be afraid...etc <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[N380UA]

It isn’t so much the nail file in it self that worries me, rather there are no appropriate international standards and presumably unqualified security employee overreacting, wanting to be a hero.. .. .All this does nothing for security, as those tests clearly showed. Obviously, security is on everybody’s mind but to take of the shoes to x-ray, not being allowed to bring ones toiletries on board or even plastic cutlery for the galley, is not a practical deterrence for terrorists it just annoys pox and crew . There are a number of other ways to bring a weapon on board which obviously is not being checked. Insofar I would have to agree with Tripower455 on the other hand, yes Scottie is right as well as the terrorists objective is to do damage and so every avenue is, for them, just cause.

[Tripower455]

Geez, tough room!. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">If you were to have seen his previous posts you would understand that this guy has a persecution complex where security is concerned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Thank you Doctor Captain! I was wondering what MY problem was! And all this time I thought that security was a joke, when it was actually ME that had the problem! They are trying to help me by pilfering my toiletries! . .. .All kidding aside, (since you seem so concerned about my mental well being), I feel I really suffer from a lack of logic complex. I would like to see effective security measures in EVERY or even MOST aspects of airline operations. . .. .My opinion, as I've stated many times (which you would have known, had you read my previous posts on the subject) is that nearly every action taken in the U.S. post 9/11 has been that of inneffective (yet expensive and intrusive) eyewash. My attitude and opinion have nothing to do with any type of "complex". I am amazed at the number of pilots with head in the sand complex (that accept this nonsense without complaining, ie writing their representative etc.).. .. .I can't and don't comment on the more "civilized" countries, because I fly domestic U.S. Since I spend 80 to 85 hours a month flying around the US, I'd feel much better knowing that something of substance was being done. I am sorry if you disagree, but the current procedures are a joke. The "something is better than nothing" (ie, pilfering my tweezers and other non weapons, yet ignoring very real threats) argument hasn't made flying one bit safer. Taking my tweezers and making me remove my shoes, while every provisioner and bag loader walks through the back door is like trying to save the Titanic by bailing it with a teacup.. .. .My biggest pet peeve (and has been since '88 or so) is the lack of ramp screening. . .. .Does it make sense that I can be arrested for walking 75 feet on the ramp (from the aircraft I've just flown 7 hours in and parked at the gate) to the crew lounge, when there are 500 rampers running around with unfettered access to MY aircraft, that haven't had any type of screening?. .. .Show me the logic of screening pilots and flight attendants (but not ground ops employees) as a result of the misdeeds OF a ground ops employee(which is the reason why we are subject to screening in the first place).. .. .This begs the question: ARE pilots and flight attendants being persecuted, since we are the ONLY airline employees subject to screening?. . . . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">He complains about having his toiletries searched (even pilfered!)but ridicules those who try to improve their lamentable security which was so devistatingly exposed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I "complain about having my toiletries pilfered" as an example of the silliness of the situation. . .. .I haven't seen anyone actually trying to "improve" the "lamentable security" that is still "devastatingly exposed", at all. None of the "security improvements" taken since 9/11 (like taking my tweezers, for EXAMPLE) would have prevented (and won't prevent another) 9/11 incident from happening. About the only thing that's happened since 9/11 to improve safety is that we now know that when hijacked, we might not only be going to Cuba. Hopefully, when it happens again, there will be enough passengers on board to thwart the hijackers. If not, there's always the future co pilot in the F-Teen to save the office workers of the world!. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Remember these people have had their heads in the sand for years where airline security is concerned. They still can't bear to see the light.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">That is my point exactly......... We (meaning the US gov) STILL have our heads in the sand re: security measures. You'd think that 9/11 would have waken us up.......... .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Sadly those of us with terrorists on our doorsteps for 30 years or more have a more sanguine approach. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Explain your "sanguine" approach. Now that I know my "problem", maybe I can adopt your "put up with it and shut up" attitude re the eyewash!. .. .Our approach to making flying more secure consists of:. .. .Just ignore it and it will go away, at the most, make it LOOK like you are doing something so passengers will feel safer.. .. .The more harassed flight crew and pax are the more secure they will feel.. .. .Post NG guys, most with unloaded weapons (since they really don't need them anyway!) at the checkpoints.. .. ."Randomly select" little kids, pilots, oldsters etc. for increased scrutiny, while ignoring more credible threats.. .. .Place ever elusive sky marshalls on some of our flights.. .. .Arrest pilots for making what should be obvious (but arguably not the most intelligent) statements at security?. .. .Should I continue?

[underboost]

Anyone who believes the US has even minimal airport security is sadly mistaken. It's all eyewash for public consumption and the public is slowly starting to catch on. (The terrorists already know.) The holes in security are well known to aircrews, thus the frustration and anger that occasionally make the news. The dumbest practice is the body cavity searches administered to cockpit crews, but a close second has got to be the shake downs given to passengers traveling on one-way tickets. I've got news for the FAA: Potential hijackers watch TV and read newspapers and don't appear to be morons. (Especially when compared to the bureaucrats in charge of airport security.) If there's a certainty to anything, it's that future hijackers WILL NOT be flying on one-way tickets. The FAA needs to quit trying to stop the last hijacking and recruit some brighter minds to go to work on preventing the next one. Ah, now I feel better!

[Capt Homesick]

Tripower, I don't blame you for feeling frustrated. I would suggest, however, that the solution is not to stop searching crews. At my base, after Lockerbie all the crew/groundstaff access points that did not involve screening were closed, and all airport employees had to be searched. Pilots, loaders, ramp staff, airport employees- no exceptions.. .It gets a bit repetitive- I don't feel insulted by the process, though. At one company, security took the trouble to explain- now, no employee can be blackmailed into carrying weapons airside- it doesn't matter how you threaten me or my friends, I have no more ability to smuggle a weapon than a passenger.. .Deliberately singling out crews, though- I can fully appreciate how you feel about that, all I can suggest is write to your congressman and ask him to campaign for a more comprehensive search regime.

[Tripower455]

Capt. Homesick,. .. .I agree that terrorists will try to expoit any loophole in security. The problem as I see it, is that there are many "loopholes" in airport security that are much larger and easier to exploit than the remote possibility of an airline pilot being coerced into carrying a weapon (such as a nail file) on board an aircraft, that are not being addressed. Who would be more likely to succomb to bribery. A pilot who will die when the aircraft hits the building or or ground ops type who will not? I would bet that for a few hundred $$$$$$, it wouldn't be too hard to get an unidentified box into an aircraft lav. It would be even easier and more likely to succeed for a sleeper terrorist to get a job on the ramp and do it himself. . .. .The ramp security issue should be a no brainer. It should have been since 1987 when the disgruntled PSA GROUND OPS type bypassed security, snuck a pistol on board a BAE 146 and killed the pilots, and everyone else when it crashed. The result of this tragedy is the subjecting of pilots and flight attendants (and ONLY pilots and flight attendants!) to security screening. It's surreal.. .. .If the pilferage of my nail clippers was part of an overall security improvement, I would not have any heartburn with it (even though I do believe that with proper ID verification, there is no reason to subject flight crew to PASSENGER screening.....it is a solution to a non existent problem, imho.). The problem as I see it, is that (as usual) the FAA is opting for eyewash and rhetoric rather than effective security. . .. .As far as contacting my reps.....I have worn my fingers sore typing letters to my reps, and even went as far as personally visiting my congressman (a waste of time, I might add).. .. .Airline pilots have little or no say in the procedures that are there ostensibly to protect us.........

[smellster]

I think I'll add my piece to this issue cos it's been narking me off recently.. .. .I'm fed up with the number of times i've gone through a certain London Airport's (it's often foggy there) cargo gate, and they have not asked to see my airside pass. Info: they have no x-ray machine.. .. .They are quite happy to go through my overnight case and examine the inners of my boxer shorts (not a pretty sight), then they'll happily let u through without noticing the leatherman with the nice blade (it is quite sharp, yet still useful for tightening various things not including my nuts (matron!!)) in my flight bag and also without checking my pass, which I believe is quite serious. Each time I have asked if they would like to check my airside pass just as i was passing through the door airside, which they embarrassingly said yes.. .. .I will report this the next time it happens with some names to the relevant authority.. .. .But does anyone else have similar issues with other uk airports? I s'pose most of you go through xray machines.. .. .smellster

[GlueBall]

Capt Homesick says: "...At my base, after Lockerbie all the crew/groundstaff access points that did not involve screening were closed, and all airport employees had to be searched. Pilots, loaders, ramp staff, airport employees- no exceptions.". .. .That must not be so at LHR where after a successful heist clever "groundstaff" had driven out the gate with $3+ Million in cash. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Captain Speeking]

Not so GB. .. .I imagine you and many others would be outraged if you were checked again LEAVING a secure area.. .. .This guy drove a van OUT with the heist on board and a rumour circulates that he was on his own at this time!. .. .CS