Australian airspace unsafe
"Blue: did you do a flight into an MBZ bob, sorry I mean CTAF-R? such as Ayres Rock or Karratha, with a combination of jets and lighties visually seperating themselves?"
Yes i have behind a 717 and 737 makes for an interesting flight let me tell you that, having done a go around just last week in a 172!!
cheers
Yes i have behind a 717 and 737 makes for an interesting flight let me tell you that, having done a go around just last week in a 172!!
cheers
It would help us in the UK to understand the problem if you told us what class of airspace you have around these non-radar airports.
In the UK we have many IFR airports both with and without radar in Class G airspace, whilst in the US, I understand all IFR airports get 5nm radius class D.
In the UK we have many IFR airports both with and without radar in Class G airspace, whilst in the US, I understand all IFR airports get 5nm radius class D.
Bottums Up
Chevvron, the system changed last week and I've only looked at the bits I'm using at present but, we have Class A from either F180 or F245 and above depending on radar availability I think.
Below A, is usually Class C leading into Class D or Class C control zones with E underlying the C and G underlying that; or Class E leading into G
Leading into non-towered Class G aerodromes is usually a layer of Class E from F245 to F180.
Along the J Curve (Cairns down the east coast to Adelaide) there's Class E below C down to about A085 (8500' AMSL [our flight levels start at F110]).
To give some examples; Mackay (YBMK) is a Class D towered aerodrome 22125-1100z daily. Outside these hours the tower closes and airspace up to A045 is reclassified Class G. BN centre has one on radar from about circuit height.
Alice Springs (YBAS) has no radar within cooee (a bloody long way). It has Class C steps with E underlying, running into a Class D tower zone, which gets reclassified Class G when the tower is closed at night. It is possible to avoid Class E (non radar) and descend wholly in A/C/D.
Ayers Rock (YAYE), has Class G Airspace to F180, E from F180 to F245 then A. It also has a CAGRO, Certified Air Ground Radio Operator, who provides known traffic info, weather at the field, and the like. S/He doesn't provide a separation service, it's info only.
Below A, is usually Class C leading into Class D or Class C control zones with E underlying the C and G underlying that; or Class E leading into G
Leading into non-towered Class G aerodromes is usually a layer of Class E from F245 to F180.
Along the J Curve (Cairns down the east coast to Adelaide) there's Class E below C down to about A085 (8500' AMSL [our flight levels start at F110]).
To give some examples; Mackay (YBMK) is a Class D towered aerodrome 22125-1100z daily. Outside these hours the tower closes and airspace up to A045 is reclassified Class G. BN centre has one on radar from about circuit height.
Alice Springs (YBAS) has no radar within cooee (a bloody long way). It has Class C steps with E underlying, running into a Class D tower zone, which gets reclassified Class G when the tower is closed at night. It is possible to avoid Class E (non radar) and descend wholly in A/C/D.
Ayers Rock (YAYE), has Class G Airspace to F180, E from F180 to F245 then A. It also has a CAGRO, Certified Air Ground Radio Operator, who provides known traffic info, weather at the field, and the like. S/He doesn't provide a separation service, it's info only.
Thread Starter
Chevvron, you ask
That is exactly what my presentation explains. Here is a link to the book http://www.dicksmithflyer.com.au/book/ We have jet airline aircraft in good radar coverage using a ‘do it yourself’ separation system when in cloud and not being able to make use of the radar.
The Government decided to go ahead with the US NAS system, which is one of the best airspace systems in the world, but for some extraordinary reason the air traffic controllers’ union (Civil Air) have run a campaign against this.
The claim is that we do not have as much radar in Australia. That is obvious, but why not use the radar properly where we have it? That is between Tasmania and Cairns – i.e. the same distance as from London to Istanbul.
I ask all professional pilots to have an open mind and read the presentation, then possibly give some advice to Australian professional pilots on how the airspace could be better utilised to prevent Controlled Flight Into Terrain accidents.
I do agree that in the UK you have a lot of uncontrolled airspace, however you use the radar correctly when IFR aircraft are in cloud.
Note how my opponents attack me personally but do not comment on my ‘Unsafe Skies’ presentation – even when professional pilots inadvertently killed 24 people in Controlled Flight Into Terrain accidents in a 13 month period.
It would help us in the UK to understand the problem if you told us what class of airspace you have around these non-radar airports.
The Government decided to go ahead with the US NAS system, which is one of the best airspace systems in the world, but for some extraordinary reason the air traffic controllers’ union (Civil Air) have run a campaign against this.
The claim is that we do not have as much radar in Australia. That is obvious, but why not use the radar properly where we have it? That is between Tasmania and Cairns – i.e. the same distance as from London to Istanbul.
I ask all professional pilots to have an open mind and read the presentation, then possibly give some advice to Australian professional pilots on how the airspace could be better utilised to prevent Controlled Flight Into Terrain accidents.
I do agree that in the UK you have a lot of uncontrolled airspace, however you use the radar correctly when IFR aircraft are in cloud.
Note how my opponents attack me personally but do not comment on my ‘Unsafe Skies’ presentation – even when professional pilots inadvertently killed 24 people in Controlled Flight Into Terrain accidents in a 13 month period.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 1st Dec 2005 at 22:25.
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Dick Smith, could you explain exactly how Radar would have been used to prevent the crash at Lockhart River? As this crash is responsible for the vast majority of the lives lost I expect you have quite a detailed response.
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Dick Smith said:
Wasn't it your system introducing Class E that could potentially put a passenger loaded 737 and a Cessna 172 in the same piece of sky without being seperated by ATC?
BTW, other people have some good ideas (that are different from yours) about how to do things.
Cheers,
Chips
We have jet airline aircraft in good radar coverage using a ‘do it yourself’ separation system when in cloud and not being able to make use of the radar.
BTW, other people have some good ideas (that are different from yours) about how to do things.
Cheers,
Chips
Thread Starter
ThrillHouse, you ask:
The British pilots who read my presentation (Chapter 14 Cape York crash – 15 dead – local radio operator hijacked.
You will not believe we have airline aircraft operating into airports completely calling in the blind with no radio operator on the ground. I understand that in the UK an airline aircraft cannot operate unless there is either a tower or a Certified Air/Ground Operator at the airport. This is just commonsense.
The book clearly covers the serious Qantas incident, where 87 people went to within a hair’s breadth of losing their lives because the radar was not used properly.
British professional pilots will be amazed that every time I say we should use the radar coverage we’ve got to maximise safety, some Aussie pilot comes up and says, “But because we have areas without radar, that means we shouldn’t use it anywhere!”
could you explain exactly how Radar would have been used to prevent the crash at Lockhart River? As this crash is responsible for the vast majority of the lives lost I expect you have quite a detailed response.
You will not believe we have airline aircraft operating into airports completely calling in the blind with no radio operator on the ground. I understand that in the UK an airline aircraft cannot operate unless there is either a tower or a Certified Air/Ground Operator at the airport. This is just commonsense.
The book clearly covers the serious Qantas incident, where 87 people went to within a hair’s breadth of losing their lives because the radar was not used properly.
British professional pilots will be amazed that every time I say we should use the radar coverage we’ve got to maximise safety, some Aussie pilot comes up and says, “But because we have areas without radar, that means we shouldn’t use it anywhere!”
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Dick Smith could you explain exactly how Radar would have been used to prevent the crash at Lockhart River? As this crash is responsible for the vast majority of the lives lost I expect you have quite a detailed response. I await your answer as you quoted my words but did not respond.
Supplementary question, how exactly is a CAGRO responsible for terrain clearance and what part of the GPS approach do they monitor and using what equipment? Exactly in what way would a CAGRO have been used to prevent the crash at Lockhart River? As this crash is responsible for the vast majority of the lives lost I expect you have quite a detailed response.
Supplementary question, how exactly is a CAGRO responsible for terrain clearance and what part of the GPS approach do they monitor and using what equipment? Exactly in what way would a CAGRO have been used to prevent the crash at Lockhart River? As this crash is responsible for the vast majority of the lives lost I expect you have quite a detailed response.
For our overseas readers, I will try to clarify this "calling in the blind" smokescreen.
In Australia the class of airspace and thus service provided in the vicinity of an aerodrome is dictated by the level of traffic movements.
It is also interesting to note that Mr. Smith was Chairman of the Board of the then Civil Aviation Authority, when a review of ATC Towers was ordered, and as a result closed Proserpine tower. Mention is also made in the presentation of the tower cab secretly hidden from view in the bush. The fact is that sometime after the tower closed in the early 1990's, it was dismantled and donated to the local motorcross club for their use - so that is why it is away in the bush
Also in enroute class G airspace IFR are given a traffic service by ATC, separated within overlying class E airspace, and given traffic on observed VFR. Thus the calling in the blind and being left to their own devices is a furphy.
The impracticality of ATC closely monitoring flight path adherance of all aircraft in their airspace conducting instrument approaches to remote aerodromes while continuing to provide a service to the rest of their aircraft is lost on the gent, unfortunately.
In Australia the class of airspace and thus service provided in the vicinity of an aerodrome is dictated by the level of traffic movements.
- Light traffic = class G airspace, may or may not have a UNICOM staffed part-time by possibly a baggie or refueller.
- higher traffic = class G & Certified Air Ground Radio Service (full traffic information and WX service provided by a trained officer; a significantly higher service than UNICOM)
- higher again = class D airspace and ATC Tower
- highest = class C airspace and ATC Tower
It is also interesting to note that Mr. Smith was Chairman of the Board of the then Civil Aviation Authority, when a review of ATC Towers was ordered, and as a result closed Proserpine tower. Mention is also made in the presentation of the tower cab secretly hidden from view in the bush. The fact is that sometime after the tower closed in the early 1990's, it was dismantled and donated to the local motorcross club for their use - so that is why it is away in the bush
Also in enroute class G airspace IFR are given a traffic service by ATC, separated within overlying class E airspace, and given traffic on observed VFR. Thus the calling in the blind and being left to their own devices is a furphy.
The impracticality of ATC closely monitoring flight path adherance of all aircraft in their airspace conducting instrument approaches to remote aerodromes while continuing to provide a service to the rest of their aircraft is lost on the gent, unfortunately.
Service to non towered fields
I'm a little lost in this debate but to clarify one point.
In the US there is scheduled service into non towered fields and some of these fields have are out of center radar coverage.
Massena New York, (MSS) is a case in point. You can legally have a plane, in IMC, executing the ILS while you have local traffic -legal in the pattern. Boston center radar will not get you below 2500. The only "service" so to speak is pilots on the UNICOM.
Most US fields and canadian fields do not have UNICOM operators providing information in my experience. (Only come across this once, the local air cadets at Lachute)
Also - there are a lot of towerd fields where the tower has no radar. We had a mid air at KCDW, night VMC, a few years back when the tower was operating.
20driver
In the US there is scheduled service into non towered fields and some of these fields have are out of center radar coverage.
Massena New York, (MSS) is a case in point. You can legally have a plane, in IMC, executing the ILS while you have local traffic -legal in the pattern. Boston center radar will not get you below 2500. The only "service" so to speak is pilots on the UNICOM.
Most US fields and canadian fields do not have UNICOM operators providing information in my experience. (Only come across this once, the local air cadets at Lachute)
Also - there are a lot of towerd fields where the tower has no radar. We had a mid air at KCDW, night VMC, a few years back when the tower was operating.
20driver
Thread Starter
ThrillHouse, you ask:
As my Unsafe Skies presentation clearly shows, there is no radar at Lockhart River. That is not the issue here. The chapter on the Lockhart River crash clearly shows how a UNICOM on the ground may have prevented the accident.
could you explain exactly how Radar would have been used to prevent the crash at Lockhart River?
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Supplementary question, how exactly is a CAGRO responsible for terrain clearance and what part of the GPS approach do they monitor and using what equipment? Exactly in what way would a CAGRO have been used to prevent the crash at Lockhart River? As this crash is responsible for the vast majority of the lives lost I expect you have quite a detailed response.
Dick Smith said:
As you were told previously when you stated this, it was reported that the AD operator called the aircraft repeatedly without contact. Keep trotting out the same old furphys to a new audience.
GPWS or EGPWS are somewhat more likely to prevent CFIT than a UNICOM.
..... Lockhart River crash clearly shows how a UNICOM on the ground may have prevented the accident
GPWS or EGPWS are somewhat more likely to prevent CFIT than a UNICOM.
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I understand that in the UK an airline aircraft cannot operate unless there is either a tower or a Certified Air/Ground Operator at the airport.
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Why the hell is anyone talking about adding more radar ? ADS-B is the way of the future, particularly in remote areas of Australia. The sooner some of the old radar sites are dismantled and the money put into ADS-B the better off we will all be.
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20driver - we are only just getting ILS installed at our major airports, even places like Melbourne still dont have ILS on all runways, and to have a CAT 2 or CAT 3 is a pipe dream indeed (although to be fair conditions rarely occur such that CAT2/3 is needed). There is no chance of an ILS at smaller non-towered aerodromes. In fact there is a good chance the only navaid is an ancient NDB. Its a little bit behind the times in certain places, and the government only spends money after an accident occurs.
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Im very surprised Dick is still on this one. You have got to hand it to him, he is not discouraged easily, but i would have thought he would have given in by now.
Fair suck of the sauce bottle Dick, geez your like a little kid jumping up and down screaming for attention when anyone with half a brain and no common sense is completely ignoring you and your ignorance.
I suggest everyone else, read the Dick thread's merged in dununda to get a more informed factual opinion of this guy before coming to any final conclusions.
4S
Fair suck of the sauce bottle Dick, geez your like a little kid jumping up and down screaming for attention when anyone with half a brain and no common sense is completely ignoring you and your ignorance.
I suggest everyone else, read the Dick thread's merged in dununda to get a more informed factual opinion of this guy before coming to any final conclusions.
4S