Ryanair's view on fatigue (merged)
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So what are you boys and girls going to do?
1. Keep posting on PPRUNE how unfair it is.
2. Complain to IAA/CAA.
3. Organise yourselves and take action in support of your college who's position you may be one day.
Given the above choices, note which half of the paragraph below the choice fits into.
Please feel free to add other choices but remember to note which half of the above paragraph it falls into. I look forward to seeing the results.
Cheers,
LP
1. Keep posting on PPRUNE how unfair it is.
2. Complain to IAA/CAA.
3. Organise yourselves and take action in support of your college who's position you may be one day.
Given the above choices, note which half of the paragraph below the choice fits into.
... Raising problems is great if it leads to action. Raising problems and doing nothing, perhaps hoping someone else will fix it, is worse than not raising the problem in the first place.
Cheers,
LP
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Just for the record, there is a blatant accusation contained in Leo Hairy Camel's post about a particular captain. I just want to add my bit, which is that I don't know this person at all well but my inquiries tell me that certain figures in Ryanair management want to portray him in a particular light. Funnily enough that light is generally as outlined by our friend "Line pilot Leo". The captain certainly does not have the same profile with his colleagues as described by Leo, whose “line pilot” antennae seem to have let him down.
Leo, while some people seem to have elevated their notions to the point that they are fact (such as you have done), it would appear that once again this is more about "Ryanair facts" than real facts. It is not a matter of the Ryanair management team being persuaded that something is a fact that is important - it is whether or not it is true.
Yours is the one true voice of management here and may I remind you that earlier this year you and the rest of us observed the inability of Ryanair management to sustain the serious but bogus and contrived accusations against Captain Goss. The accusations made against him were so alien to the man we all know that their dishonesty was obvious to all. Ryanair, may I remind you, paid all the costs of that case (notwithstanding many attempts to portray the facts to be otherwise).
You clearly have sources for your accusations – but Leo, the real issue is: are they right? Or is this another case of “sacrificing one pilot to sort the others out is a good deal? All of this is typically rationalised by Ryanair along the lines of “nothing personal, just business”. Kinda like what you would say to somebody in The Godfather just prior to their execution?
Leo, while some people seem to have elevated their notions to the point that they are fact (such as you have done), it would appear that once again this is more about "Ryanair facts" than real facts. It is not a matter of the Ryanair management team being persuaded that something is a fact that is important - it is whether or not it is true.
Yours is the one true voice of management here and may I remind you that earlier this year you and the rest of us observed the inability of Ryanair management to sustain the serious but bogus and contrived accusations against Captain Goss. The accusations made against him were so alien to the man we all know that their dishonesty was obvious to all. Ryanair, may I remind you, paid all the costs of that case (notwithstanding many attempts to portray the facts to be otherwise).
You clearly have sources for your accusations – but Leo, the real issue is: are they right? Or is this another case of “sacrificing one pilot to sort the others out is a good deal? All of this is typically rationalised by Ryanair along the lines of “nothing personal, just business”. Kinda like what you would say to somebody in The Godfather just prior to their execution?
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Aloue,
Why am I not in the least surprised there appears to be another version of events + character not aligned with those of LHC?
Once again LHC's credibility is open to question.
If LHC replies, no doubt he will rattle off the stunning victory won against Capt.Goss, IALPA and the devil himself. It was not a victory. For those unfamiliar with that saga, the key point about that case was Capt.Goss was accused by Ryanair of intimidation of other pilots which lead to his suspension. Not a shred of evidence of this intimidation was ever produced. Capt.Goss was subsequently re-instated. The case was not about paying for the 800 type rating or IALPA union recognition. No matter how often LHC repeats that claim, that was not what the case was about. Repetition does not make it true.
Why am I not in the least surprised there appears to be another version of events + character not aligned with those of LHC?
Once again LHC's credibility is open to question.
If LHC replies, no doubt he will rattle off the stunning victory won against Capt.Goss, IALPA and the devil himself. It was not a victory. For those unfamiliar with that saga, the key point about that case was Capt.Goss was accused by Ryanair of intimidation of other pilots which lead to his suspension. Not a shred of evidence of this intimidation was ever produced. Capt.Goss was subsequently re-instated. The case was not about paying for the 800 type rating or IALPA union recognition. No matter how often LHC repeats that claim, that was not what the case was about. Repetition does not make it true.
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Leo Hairy-Camel wrote:
I agree with you. Ryanair is highly successful. Economically.
But the management show no sign of moral, nor ethics because it is all based on ultra capitalistic principles which seclude fair treatment of employees. As long as they see their employees as the enemy, and keep spreading paranoia around the bases, criticism will reach the public. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg so far. What surprises me alot is your username...all the letters in MOL's name, still you're not him. It seems quite unlikely that anyone actually regard Ryanair as perfect as you try to express, unless they have an economically charged motivation, that is.
Peculiar, don't you think, that the chattering dopes never seem inclined to turn their gaze toward the unsafe failing airlines? Only the safe successful, and dare I say it, Irish registered ones.
But the management show no sign of moral, nor ethics because it is all based on ultra capitalistic principles which seclude fair treatment of employees. As long as they see their employees as the enemy, and keep spreading paranoia around the bases, criticism will reach the public. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg so far. What surprises me alot is your username...all the letters in MOL's name, still you're not him. It seems quite unlikely that anyone actually regard Ryanair as perfect as you try to express, unless they have an economically charged motivation, that is.
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Leo, not that it will make much difference to you, but for somebody who functions as a line pilot in Ryanair I have to say that you have a remarkably complacent view of safety. This is not a normal airline and not all of the normal protections are in place - maybe in your eyes and those of the IAA they are - but for those who see the reality on a daily basis it is very obvious that something about Ryanair is (undesireably) different. To my mind it takes either a superiour level of confidence, or blindness, not to see this.
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This is truly a shocking incident. Maybe the answer is to go sick. After all if you are too fatigued to fly you are, in effect, sick. That is a logic that MOL himself would understand.
Unfortunately in this world today if you are honest and just say that you consider yourself to be too tired that is a subjective statement. You then leave yourself open to this kind of response from your employer.
In air law you are not allowed to fly an aircraft if you consider yourself to be too tired. But to Ryanair the law is just an inconvenience, unless they can use it to their advantage.
Unfortunately in this world today if you are honest and just say that you consider yourself to be too tired that is a subjective statement. You then leave yourself open to this kind of response from your employer.
In air law you are not allowed to fly an aircraft if you consider yourself to be too tired. But to Ryanair the law is just an inconvenience, unless they can use it to their advantage.
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I came across the following on the IALPA website (posted by the President of IALPA):
Somehow I don't think that this matter is over!
It would be improper for me to comment on the status of any issues which affect one particular member of this association.
But let's be clear, IALPA stands ready to provide the necessary resources (legal and industrial) to support any individual licence holder who exercises the statutory obligations to stand down from their assigned duties for reasons of safety such as pilot fatigue.
But let's be clear, IALPA stands ready to provide the necessary resources (legal and industrial) to support any individual licence holder who exercises the statutory obligations to stand down from their assigned duties for reasons of safety such as pilot fatigue.
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It's high time someone wiped the smile off MOL's face. The Capt recently demoted should consider making contact with the IAA (if he hasn't already) and be ready to face MOL with the true facts behind the legislation.
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"De-facto work to rule campaigns aren't on, are they."
Thread Starter
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Ha Ha Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.Another amazing statistic from Leo.£8000 a month.Id love to know any ordinary line captain in Dublin who takes home 8000 euro a month never mind 8000 sterling.More verbal scutter from Leo.
Well Ladies and Gentleman a few more FACTS for you!
Captain in question not only had his mobile phone on during the turnaround,he also made several attempts to contact operations.
Some employees in Ryanair may be accustomed to "duvets"days but its certainely not the pilots and this individual not only does the same amount of work as every other pilot,but has dug the company out of many a hole in the past.Once again the Ryanair facts vary greatly from the truth.
Well Ladies and Gentleman a few more FACTS for you!
Captain in question not only had his mobile phone on during the turnaround,he also made several attempts to contact operations.
Some employees in Ryanair may be accustomed to "duvets"days but its certainely not the pilots and this individual not only does the same amount of work as every other pilot,but has dug the company out of many a hole in the past.Once again the Ryanair facts vary greatly from the truth.
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Leo's comments are following the usual pattern. First, an FR incident is reported with what usually turns out to be the correct version of events. Leo then wades in with the management version, which is then subsequently ridiculed by the actual facts. He then makes no further comment on said thread, thus proving what we all knew anyway as to what really happened.
All laughable really. Leo, if you dropped the "ordinary line pilot" rubbish, you might gain a modicum of respect. Although probably not.
All laughable really. Leo, if you dropped the "ordinary line pilot" rubbish, you might gain a modicum of respect. Although probably not.
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Dear hairy and scary Camel:
Quote: I've always thought £8000 per month is enough to keep my phone switched on during turn arounds.
Again you have proven the point that you will use anything at your disposal to reach your goal.
Doesn't it come to mind that if you fail to have your pilots switching their phones on during turn-arounds, it might be that you have failed as a "manager" to get your message accros?
Now you take a safety issue, sqeeze the life out of it and you make a statement: SAFETY IS NO EXCUSE, IN RYANAIR.......
Good job Camel beast.
I honestly hope that your pilots have enough interlect not to go for this BS. It would be all too sad to see your style of management reach its destiny, which will be an accident.
To all pilots at Ryanair.
Don't give up, and don't let The Camel-guy push you over like has happened to your fellow pilots. Only a few more years to go and you will be reliefed from the beast!
Quote: I've always thought £8000 per month is enough to keep my phone switched on during turn arounds.
Again you have proven the point that you will use anything at your disposal to reach your goal.
Doesn't it come to mind that if you fail to have your pilots switching their phones on during turn-arounds, it might be that you have failed as a "manager" to get your message accros?
Now you take a safety issue, sqeeze the life out of it and you make a statement: SAFETY IS NO EXCUSE, IN RYANAIR.......
Good job Camel beast.
I honestly hope that your pilots have enough interlect not to go for this BS. It would be all too sad to see your style of management reach its destiny, which will be an accident.
To all pilots at Ryanair.
Don't give up, and don't let The Camel-guy push you over like has happened to your fellow pilots. Only a few more years to go and you will be reliefed from the beast!
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Guys,
I have been following this thread with interestbecause I think its not so different from what they are experiencing down in Mauritius. Same story, different faces! Someone, somehow, feels entitled to rewrite aviaition and at least you guys are doing something about it.
Please could you show some support and some of your so well thought out logic and strategy to the Mauritius colleagues who desperately need your help and experience right now. Log on to their thread (Airt Mauritius defies IFALPA), make your comments universal, together, north and south, you can, we can, be stronger, and stop this creeping rot changing our lives! Please remember, "Never was so much owed to so few by so many" ...
I have been following this thread with interestbecause I think its not so different from what they are experiencing down in Mauritius. Same story, different faces! Someone, somehow, feels entitled to rewrite aviaition and at least you guys are doing something about it.
Please could you show some support and some of your so well thought out logic and strategy to the Mauritius colleagues who desperately need your help and experience right now. Log on to their thread (Airt Mauritius defies IFALPA), make your comments universal, together, north and south, you can, we can, be stronger, and stop this creeping rot changing our lives! Please remember, "Never was so much owed to so few by so many" ...
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Leo then wades in with the management version, which is then subsequently ridiculed by the actual facts
I can't help but wonder if some people allow themselves to be a bit blinkered by an automatic aversion to FR.
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I hate to be a bubble burster, but how do you know either version is the "actual facts
You will also notice that Leo tends to go rather quiet on a given subject when said independent facts emerge.
And rest assured, you've not burst my bubble; I don't live in one ,as reality as long since intruded. The only bubbles in FR are inhabited by Leo and his ilk.
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The situation in Air Mauritius and Ryanair – each with its own thread here on PPRuNe - have a number of important parallels with similar, and less well publicised, events involving pilot fatigue. We have reached the point where inappropriate management intervention has apparently become relatively normal. Only a few pilots seem to appreciate how significant these developments have become.
To my mind the key things to note are:
(a) the responsibility for behaving in the correct way lies exclusively with the pilot,
(b) the power to make the pilot’s life difficult (at a minimum) lies with the employer,
(c) the willingness of employers to directly interfere on issues of duty time has increased markedly, especially at the low cost end of the spectrum,
(d) those intervening are often management pilots who are also postholders with legal obligations, and,
(e) Aviation Authorities are remarkably slow (cautious if you are feeling charitable) to respond to claims that malpractice or inappropriate behaviour occurs in this area.
The overall effect is to ensure that those pilots who think it appropriate to “keep a low profile” will do as their employer bids. This is not what is expected from the safety perspective, nor what is required from a legal perspective.
The behaviour of management at both Ryanair and Air Mauritius gives rise to concern not least because they both seem to feel that they have a right to behave as they do and, if challenged, to agressively go after individuals. At the same time, stories attacking the integrity and motivation of individual pilots begin to appear. These techniques are now becoming relatively common.
There seems to be little ability or willingness on the part of Aviation Authorities or ICAO to recognise the gradual erosion of a long established safety barrier. It is equally worth noting that fatigue is not a much used reason for failing to report for duty.
We will not have heard the end of this particular problem until some action is taken. Clearly the imbalance is between the responsibility carried by each individual licence holder and his or her power to act on that responsibility without suffering direct or indirect consequences. Some attention to the willingness of management pilots to look to their responsibilities might also be appropriate. So we might be waiting for a little while for any real action …
To my mind the key things to note are:
(a) the responsibility for behaving in the correct way lies exclusively with the pilot,
(b) the power to make the pilot’s life difficult (at a minimum) lies with the employer,
(c) the willingness of employers to directly interfere on issues of duty time has increased markedly, especially at the low cost end of the spectrum,
(d) those intervening are often management pilots who are also postholders with legal obligations, and,
(e) Aviation Authorities are remarkably slow (cautious if you are feeling charitable) to respond to claims that malpractice or inappropriate behaviour occurs in this area.
The overall effect is to ensure that those pilots who think it appropriate to “keep a low profile” will do as their employer bids. This is not what is expected from the safety perspective, nor what is required from a legal perspective.
The behaviour of management at both Ryanair and Air Mauritius gives rise to concern not least because they both seem to feel that they have a right to behave as they do and, if challenged, to agressively go after individuals. At the same time, stories attacking the integrity and motivation of individual pilots begin to appear. These techniques are now becoming relatively common.
There seems to be little ability or willingness on the part of Aviation Authorities or ICAO to recognise the gradual erosion of a long established safety barrier. It is equally worth noting that fatigue is not a much used reason for failing to report for duty.
We will not have heard the end of this particular problem until some action is taken. Clearly the imbalance is between the responsibility carried by each individual licence holder and his or her power to act on that responsibility without suffering direct or indirect consequences. Some attention to the willingness of management pilots to look to their responsibilities might also be appropriate. So we might be waiting for a little while for any real action …
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Word is gradually creeping out about the background to this matter. Here's one really interesting if mindboggling bit. Apparently the charge is that the pilot concerned was accused of failing to complete a "mandatory retrospective roster change". This was one (the only?) charge at his disciplinary hearing. This is so preposterous that it would initially strike you as "pub talk". However, it is not "pub talk". It is true. The section(s) of the working agreement which permits such "mandatory" and "retrospective" roster changes have been pointed out to several pilots.
This is a brilliant scam for an airline is it not? Quite how this was connected to the fatigue report was not explained to me.
This is a brilliant scam for an airline is it not? Quite how this was connected to the fatigue report was not explained to me.
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Mandatory whatsama who??
What on earth is that supposed to mean? And how does this fit in with the IAA equivalent of CAP 371? I'm sure there's a bit that deals with significant changes of rostered duty period, to say nothing of the over-riding fatigue issue. And when does it stop becoming 'mandatory retrospective'?
I have no particular gripe with RYR (as I don't fly for them), but have been following this thread with some interest. This, I just don't get. Can someone please elaborate.
Trippy
What on earth is that supposed to mean? And how does this fit in with the IAA equivalent of CAP 371? I'm sure there's a bit that deals with significant changes of rostered duty period, to say nothing of the over-riding fatigue issue. And when does it stop becoming 'mandatory retrospective'?
I have no particular gripe with RYR (as I don't fly for them), but have been following this thread with some interest. This, I just don't get. Can someone please elaborate.
Trippy