Ryanair's view on fatigue (merged)

[atse]

Blue top - your facts are WRONG. As in definitely wrong. Unless you can state that you have spoken directly to one of the people DIRECTLY involved you should stop this nonsense, especially speculation about telephone calls.

If you have spoken to one of those directly involved, please indicate if it was a flight crew member or groundstaff since that would raise other issues.

Before you pontificate about Captains giving respect to Operations, you would do well to reflect upon (a) the legal responsibilities of all flight crew and (b) the possibility that you have been sucked into in a campaign of misinformation.

[Say again s l o w l y]

What utter cr*p Blue top.

Why should a crew member use their own personal mobile for company business whilst abroad. If Mobiles were provided, then fine they should ring in, but don't bleat about us not ringing Ops if we aren't given the means to do so. Would you reimburse them for the call? Don't think so. Who says they had mobiles anyway? Some people don't like them for this exact reason.

The Ops dept. should have tried to contact the crew earlier, not just before they closed the doors. Not a good thing to put on a flight log- reason for delay: crew had to ring Operations.
Do me a favour!

The Capt. in this case did nothing wrong, he tried to contact the company through the handling agents en-route. A good idea, the only problem from your point of view is that he wouldn't comply with the request. As he was entitled to do.

[blue top]

I am not wrong and yes i did talk to the crew and also the girl who was on in ops that night. if you would like to PM me please do but i am 100% correct in what i have said.

[the grim repa]

should respect op's.
should call on his own mobile.
should have flown the additional sectors.
was demoted.

why?

this is not about could,woulda,shoulda.
it is plainly and simply about the subjugation of the pilot body by a tyrannical operation.

[atse]

blue top you are wrong. If you spoke to the crew and got that information from them, then I'm a little green woman.

You have got a particular version - which relies on incorrect deductions and suppositions made on the day, but not the actual facts. The information you provide identifies your source and I suggest that, for that reason alone, this exchange should now stop.

[worldwidewolly]

Blue top

You are wrong.
Give me 1 good reason why any crew member should call ops abroad on a mobile at their own expence.

In a reasonable world none of us would mind doing such a thing, but not with a company that hates its staff.

Give me 1 reason why MOL has earned that respect from staff.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

The day Ryanair have respect for the human beings that work for them then something might come back in return.

Give me 1 reason why any pilot, especially a Dublin pilot should do anything, anything, to help out this lot??

Explain yourself??

[blue top]

Im sorry but i am right, i was there that night and i know what went on. Im not saying what happened was right but im just telling the facts. Dublin guys are very well looked after by most people in crewing and by most in ops when they are looking for days off, swops or anything else they need. Not that it comes from the company but the people who work there have a very good relationship with the crews and so they look after there friends. If you were working in Dub you would know that.
I am NOT taking the company line just telling it the way it happened. Y ou can keep jumping on me for what im saying but it is the truth

[Seabiscuit]

No need to apologise blue top, but nthe fact remains that you are wrong!, what did you want the skipper to do, put a dreaded delay on the flight and get into trouble for that, then say he could'nt do the flight, not would not. You can claim all you want, hell even claim your the almighty messiah, the fact remains, capt to fatigued to fly, got demoted. end of story. FACT

[atse]

Capt was reported by ops due to the fact that he would not contact operations in Dub

You are making a serious accusation - can you prove it? Did the captain refuse to contact operations in Dublin? How sure are you about any reply you can give to that question?

You have claimed you spoke to the crew, but clearly you did not get the information from them. What is clear is who gave you the information. Ponder on that.

By the way, what is the role of ops in "reporting" captains on such matters? Perhaps you could clarify that for us.

[GGV]

The main problem was the way the Capt carried on. He showed no respect for operations or anybody else.

I think we may have a clue as to what might have gone wrong from this sentence from blue top's post. Maybe the management types got fed some funny information about what happened and did their "Ryanair thing" without checking out the facts. By all accounts the Captain concerned is a most unlikely candidate for such an accusation. It looks like we have a case of an error of understanding by someone in ops. that got out of control. Hence the need for asserting a version of events that blackens the captain. Perhaps blue top should stop and think.

[Algy]

No idea what happened, and no strong feelings either.

But, low-cost, 737/A320 airlines with ACARS or VDL or even satcom include: Southwest, Easyjet, Niki, Westjet at least.

[maxalt]

All American companies mate - this is Ireland, the arse end of it too.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Easyjet........ American........ hmmmm.......

[Say again s l o w l y]

blue top,
I can't see how you are "right", about what? Was the Capt. entitled to refuse the duty? If so, then ops have no right to try and force the matter. Who are you to say he wasn't fatigued?
If he'd flown those extra sectors after being 'co-erced' into it and something had happened, what do you think the accident report would have stated? Pilot Error. If you are fatigued, you shouldn't fly. Simple, that's it, go home try and get some sleep and come back another day.

'Attitude' doesn't come into it. At the end of a long day we are all tired and if you are then expected to do something without first being consulted, then I'm not surprised if there was a bit of annoyance.
Remember, whilst we all have the same goals as part of the same team, crews are human and can't be expected to drag the company out of the sh*te every time, the same with Ops and Crewing, there are limits on what we all can do. If there isn't anyone on standby to cover because of a sortage of crew. It's Ops, crewing and flight deck who suffer because of this, so we need to work together to try and resolve long term issue like this, rather than 'reporting' someone because they felt fatigued.

You talk about crewing and Ops having a good rapport with crews, well after issues like this, you can kiss that goodbye in a heart beat.

[PAXboy]

The main problem was the way the Capt carried on. He showed no respect for operations or anybody else.

Uumm, interestingly blinkered assertion. Actually, he showed respect for himself, his family, all of his fellow crew members and ... Oh Yes, almost forget, those strange things down the back end. What are we called again? You know, the ones who buy their ticket in the presumption that the airline and it's staff is going to do all in it's power to complete their side of the contract in a manner that will result in them arriving safely at their destination.

Since he refused to operate whilst fatigured it also means that he showed respect for his company and employer, by saving them the risk of something going horribly wrong. This man showed respect all around and I can only hope that when I have to take an FR flight in January (much against my wishes) that this man (or his best friend) will be on the flight deck.

[Low-Pass]

PAXboy,

I understand where you're coming from but if you aren't prepared to stand up for yourself, stop whinging!

blue top (or anyone else),

Please explain again to me how the REQUEST to do further sectors was passed to the captain. How could the same method not be an acceptable method to reply?

If the information above is correct, the captain has made an effort to reply to Ops but it has been ASSUMED that he would take the extra flights. That is pressure from the company on a crew to operate in a potential dangerous condition.

But all this is largely irrelevant. The important question is, What are the other captains going to do?

LP

[blue top]

I was by no mean having a go at the capt or sticking up for the company. I do agree with his right not to fly anymore sectors for what ever reason he or the crew had.

I was however just trying to put the facts across as i saw them and for what i had seen and heard on the night in question.
I do have more to say but i will keep it to myself. I have been posting via PMs with ATSE and it is better for everybody to let this lie.

enjoy

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Talking to yourself..... hmmm, can't knock it. Best way to hang on to friends in my experience hehe!

[atse]

I have had a very courteous exchange with blue top via PMs. He is well informed, as am I. I fully accept his statement about his intentions in his comment:

I was by no mean having a go at the capt or sticking up for the company.

I admit to originally believing that he might have been trying to undermine the captain's position. I agree with him that an argument here in public over the nuances of our differences is not the best way to go forward. I, like blue top, will now bow out of this debate.

However, I will conclude by observing that I believe that Ryanair has managed to score another "own goal" and that we probably have not heard the end of this.

[PAXboy]

Low-Pass

I understand where you're coming from but if you aren't prepared to stand up for yourself, stop whinging!

Could you let me know what you are referring to? If you mean about my travelling FR against my wishes, then that is because someone else is paying for the ticket and I am their guest. This will be only the third sector that I have travelled with FR and do not expect to do so again. If I have missed your point, do say what it is.