bmi Redundancies
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A very sad day, and 109 is a far cry from 85!
Regarding regional, while it may not be very popular, these were the terms agreed between the various parties. Its a bit late now to start making noises, other than to cause a 'them and us' attitude to breed, which achieves nothing.
Unfortuantely for the cadets, if they had signed a contract, effectively waiving their length of service for the company, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions, unless BALPA can sort something out.
You will probably find the LIFO principal is really the only method open to the company. After all, those who have tried to make redundancies on the basis of age, sex and even productivity have all had their fingers badly burned.
Anyway, redundancy is never fair to the person at the receiving end. I've been there once too often already.
Regarding regional, while it may not be very popular, these were the terms agreed between the various parties. Its a bit late now to start making noises, other than to cause a 'them and us' attitude to breed, which achieves nothing.
Unfortuantely for the cadets, if they had signed a contract, effectively waiving their length of service for the company, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions, unless BALPA can sort something out.
You will probably find the LIFO principal is really the only method open to the company. After all, those who have tried to make redundancies on the basis of age, sex and even productivity have all had their fingers badly burned.
Anyway, redundancy is never fair to the person at the receiving end. I've been there once too often already.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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To all at BMI that are affected I hope that the day day never arrives when you have to finish, here's to hoping that things will pick-up soon ( for us all, I'm near the bottom of a seniority list aswell )
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Good luck to all at Bmi. Whilst not involved in the flying side of aviation (not by choice), I know how you must be feeling.
I myself have been given advance warning of redundancy from the Corporate travel market after 33 years - nearly 16 with my present employer - and will be unemployed from the end of the year.
It has been a horrendous year - the worst that I have known, and it has affected us all badly.
To those who are feeling down, I wish good cheer. To those who hopefully are down but not out, I wish good hunting.
With any luck things can only start to get brighter as the new year starts.
Scottie Dog
edited for spelling!!
:o
[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Scottie Dog ]
I myself have been given advance warning of redundancy from the Corporate travel market after 33 years - nearly 16 with my present employer - and will be unemployed from the end of the year.
It has been a horrendous year - the worst that I have known, and it has affected us all badly.
To those who are feeling down, I wish good cheer. To those who hopefully are down but not out, I wish good hunting.
With any luck things can only start to get brighter as the new year starts.
Scottie Dog
edited for spelling!!
:o
[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Scottie Dog ]
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Sorry to hear the bad news guys. Hang in there tho', things turn around in the blink of an eye these days. It's hard to see any good in all of this, and it's hard to comprehend the scale of damage done to what was our thriving world but we are a resilient lot us aviating types and it's going to get better some day.
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actjag, regarding regional, i don't think it's too late to start making noises, certainly not for the individuals who have been 'leapfrogged' and now find themselves facing redundancy.Under employment law 'Transfer of Undertaking' determines an employee's statutory rights regarding payments etc... but it does not determine who will be made redundant.We operate under a last in first out policy as per the AFS, therefore any aggreement made in respect of the pilot concerned is against the AFS and therefore BIG noises should be made!(noises were not made earlier as this has only come into light in the present situation).
Again this is not personal nor is it fuel for a 'them and us' argument, but I feel that colleagues have been dealt an injustice.
Good luck to all!!
Again this is not personal nor is it fuel for a 'them and us' argument, but I feel that colleagues have been dealt an injustice.
Good luck to all!!
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Fokker and all others involved whom I dont know, best wishes and good luck to you all.
Many close friends flying received letters today, and others at the Hall have meetings tomorrow and during the rest of the week to discuss their futures.
Hope by January everything has turned round and all are employed again, GOOD LUCK ALL>
Many close friends flying received letters today, and others at the Hall have meetings tomorrow and during the rest of the week to discuss their futures.
Hope by January everything has turned round and all are employed again, GOOD LUCK ALL>
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I believe the precedent was set when 'London City Airways'(LCA)was integrated into the then 'British Midland Airways'(BMA).
When the 'Gulf War' broke out,the LCA guys were kept on,whilst those above them on the seniority list were laid-off.
However,it would seem that the individuals concerned in the current dispute, left 'Commuter'or 'Regional'of their own free will,and therefore should be treated the same as any other pilot joining from another company.On the other hand ,maybe they just transferred from one'department'to another.....I'm confused
When the 'Gulf War' broke out,the LCA guys were kept on,whilst those above them on the seniority list were laid-off.
However,it would seem that the individuals concerned in the current dispute, left 'Commuter'or 'Regional'of their own free will,and therefore should be treated the same as any other pilot joining from another company.On the other hand ,maybe they just transferred from one'department'to another.....I'm confused
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As a bmir pilot, I fly bmi scheduled routes, in bmi owned and liveried aircraft, wearing a bmi uniform, with bmi cabin attendants and at the end of the month I get a payslip from the Hall telling me how much(?) bmi have paid me.
When said individuals transferred to LHR, they simply changed from one department to another. In the same way as an airbus pilot at LHR might apply for and transfer to the A330 at MAN.
It would be difficult to convince an Employment Tribunal that regional pilots previous employment by bmi should be ignored, when determining a fair and equitable redundancy policy. But I expect some of you will try to create a stink anyway. When the Cadets come back they will join bmir on the 145. Which seniority list will they join? Finally, take a look at it from the management perspective. Who are you going to make redundant an experienced Captain from the 145 or SAAB, or some callow, senecca driving wiener?
When said individuals transferred to LHR, they simply changed from one department to another. In the same way as an airbus pilot at LHR might apply for and transfer to the A330 at MAN.
It would be difficult to convince an Employment Tribunal that regional pilots previous employment by bmi should be ignored, when determining a fair and equitable redundancy policy. But I expect some of you will try to create a stink anyway. When the Cadets come back they will join bmir on the 145. Which seniority list will they join? Finally, take a look at it from the management perspective. Who are you going to make redundant an experienced Captain from the 145 or SAAB, or some callow, senecca driving wiener?
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Well argued BD.B.....
I think that just about wraps the subject up once and for all.This is obviously the line the Management have decided upon,and I imagine it unlikely they did it that way without taking prior legal advice.Or dare I say it,BALPA approval.
A difficult time for all of us involved in this sorry mess.Best make the best of what we've got,3 months to find some income for those with big commitments,or a long holiday for those with a more frugal lifestyle. or 
I think that just about wraps the subject up once and for all.This is obviously the line the Management have decided upon,and I imagine it unlikely they did it that way without taking prior legal advice.Or dare I say it,BALPA approval.
A difficult time for all of us involved in this sorry mess.Best make the best of what we've got,3 months to find some income for those with big commitments,or a long holiday for those with a more frugal lifestyle.
or
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I am ex BMC (a year ago) and I think that BASH D BISHOP is spot on! I dont see how you could say it is fair to get rid of guys who have worked for the company for SEVERAL years, just because they changed fleet! Thats effectively what it is ..... a fleet change! These guys were not welcomed by BMI with open arms...NO. If they were deemed worthy, they had apply for it, sit a simulator assessment and an interview!!!!!
When I joined I did not work for Business Air, I worked for British Midland Commuter. As mentioned, I was payed by BM I had a BM IATA card, a BM uniform, BM staff travel etc etc. #
You say that they wern't forced to join BM, well at interview it was EXPECTED that we would go Saab, 145, A320/B737. It was called career progression. I think it is quite frankly disgusting, that some people choose to say that one person should be made redundent over another!!
In these times we should all be pulling together to help those who have been unfortunate enough to be made redundent.
Its the same old CRAP between BMI/BMIR, and one of the reasons why I left! The superior way that BMI crews used to speak to and about BMC crews was appaling! I have to say that MOST people were very nice, but a select few certainly made a frosty atmosphere! BM is a good company with some good people, but you have to put all this rubbish aside. It will not make things better for those poor guys. Why pick on guys who's only "crime" was to come from another part of the company seeking career progression?!
I sincerely hope that things turn around and that everyone gets their job back. As I said in an earlier post....My thoughts are with you, good luck.
Eff Oh.
[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Eff Oh ]
When I joined I did not work for Business Air, I worked for British Midland Commuter. As mentioned, I was payed by BM I had a BM IATA card, a BM uniform, BM staff travel etc etc. #
You say that they wern't forced to join BM, well at interview it was EXPECTED that we would go Saab, 145, A320/B737. It was called career progression. I think it is quite frankly disgusting, that some people choose to say that one person should be made redundent over another!!
In these times we should all be pulling together to help those who have been unfortunate enough to be made redundent. Its the same old CRAP between BMI/BMIR, and one of the reasons why I left! The superior way that BMI crews used to speak to and about BMC crews was appaling! I have to say that MOST people were very nice, but a select few certainly made a frosty atmosphere! BM is a good company with some good people, but you have to put all this rubbish aside. It will not make things better for those poor guys. Why pick on guys who's only "crime" was to come from another part of the company seeking career progression?!
I sincerely hope that things turn around and that everyone gets their job back. As I said in an earlier post....My thoughts are with you, good luck.
Eff Oh.
[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Eff Oh ]
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Bash D Bishop. A well reasoned argument that I can respect, right up until the last paragraph...
Despite my relative inexperience within the company, I don't actually remember the part of my redundancy letter in which the management describe me as a
I presume therefore that this is the high regard in which you hold your collegues?(We are collegues right?-that being the main thrust of your argument?)
In my short time within bmi I have never encountered any 'us and them' mentality with bmir- although if it does exist it's almost certainly on both sides..
More than that, Don't forget the guys at Oxford that were due to join bmi shortly and now face an uncertain future, each has demonstrated commitment to the company and to their chosen profession with every exam or flight test they have taken. I know some of them personally, and the attitude that they are somehow less important than an experienced Saab/Embraer driver is sad to hear from a collegue.
Less experienced yes, less useful (at the moment) to the company maybe...but not worthy of your dismissal as callow seneca driving weiners....
These people were amongst the first to suffer because of recent events, along with all those who were due to start the courses and didn't. Perhaps you could spare them a thought whilst you are wearing your bmi uniform and flying bmi services?
God forbid if the boot was ever on the other foot I seriously doubt any of these (callow)people would be making flippant comments like yours.
As a parting aside, I have loved every second of my time here, and look forward to the upturn that must (surely?) come and the chance to have a bright outlook on the future again.
Sorry for the rant.
calltheball
Despite my relative inexperience within the company, I don't actually remember the part of my redundancy letter in which the management describe me as a
callow senec(c)a driving weiner
In my short time within bmi I have never encountered any 'us and them' mentality with bmir- although if it does exist it's almost certainly on both sides..
More than that, Don't forget the guys at Oxford that were due to join bmi shortly and now face an uncertain future, each has demonstrated commitment to the company and to their chosen profession with every exam or flight test they have taken. I know some of them personally, and the attitude that they are somehow less important than an experienced Saab/Embraer driver is sad to hear from a collegue.
Less experienced yes, less useful (at the moment) to the company maybe...but not worthy of your dismissal as callow seneca driving weiners....
These people were amongst the first to suffer because of recent events, along with all those who were due to start the courses and didn't. Perhaps you could spare them a thought whilst you are wearing your bmi uniform and flying bmi services?
God forbid if the boot was ever on the other foot I seriously doubt any of these (callow)people would be making flippant comments like yours.
As a parting aside, I have loved every second of my time here, and look forward to the upturn that must (surely?) come and the chance to have a bright outlook on the future again.
Sorry for the rant.
calltheball
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I think you will find that the answer to the bmir pilots lies in the terms of the agreement under which they were transferred. I have to admit I thought the agreement that their date of joining would remain the same would be ignored but it has been honoured so I have great respect for whoever made that decision. I am really sorry for those who are losing out. When the transfer scheme was started it seemed a very positive step in creating a complete career progression within the bmi group. It's nobody's fault that events have overtaken it, hopefully temporarily.
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Budvar,
Considering this was one of the sticky points regarding the transfer agreement, I assumed this was well known between everyone. Obviously not.
Maybe I am being naive, but I would have thought, that someone who has been contributing to the group for around four years should be considered as being more loyal to the group, then someone who has been in the group for 19 months. After all, we all get paid from the same pot of money and are managed by the same people at the top.
The real injustice has been the mis-management that put the group in this position in the first place. If certain quarters within the group had stopped throwing money away, then this whole sorry mess need not have happened. Those responsible should be taking the fall, not us at the sharp end.
Considering this was one of the sticky points regarding the transfer agreement, I assumed this was well known between everyone. Obviously not.
Maybe I am being naive, but I would have thought, that someone who has been contributing to the group for around four years should be considered as being more loyal to the group, then someone who has been in the group for 19 months. After all, we all get paid from the same pot of money and are managed by the same people at the top.
The real injustice has been the mis-management that put the group in this position in the first place. If certain quarters within the group had stopped throwing money away, then this whole sorry mess need not have happened. Those responsible should be taking the fall, not us at the sharp end.
Thread Starter
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Prisoner,
I assume you're either drunk or on drugs; you are certainly a c*nt, either way.
Eff Oh,
Hoist by your own petard, methinks. The fact that you had to sit an interview, sim. assessment etc. only underlines the fact that you were joining a DIFFERENT company. If not, can I please have my joining date back-dated to 10th November 1976....my first job after leaving school, and just about as relevant.
You haven't seen me, right?
I assume you're either drunk or on drugs; you are certainly a c*nt, either way.
Eff Oh,
Hoist by your own petard, methinks. The fact that you had to sit an interview, sim. assessment etc. only underlines the fact that you were joining a DIFFERENT company. If not, can I please have my joining date back-dated to 10th November 1976....my first job after leaving school, and just about as relevant.
You haven't seen me, right?
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actjag
just to put the other side of the argument; I'm sure there are people in all companies who have only been there 19 months but who show considerably more loyalty and commitment than some who have been in four years and longer. Just taking the pay cheque for longer is not an indication of loyalty. How about showing as much flexibility as possible in these difficult times? Accepting rostering changes (where they are operational necessities) and the like without complaining, doing all that we as individuals can do to cut costs etc etc. We all know of 'colleagues' who have been in longer who are less willing to do this. Does that make them more loyal? Just a thought, as I personally can't see a fairer method than LIFO that would be simple enough to arrive at.
PP
just to put the other side of the argument; I'm sure there are people in all companies who have only been there 19 months but who show considerably more loyalty and commitment than some who have been in four years and longer. Just taking the pay cheque for longer is not an indication of loyalty. How about showing as much flexibility as possible in these difficult times? Accepting rostering changes (where they are operational necessities) and the like without complaining, doing all that we as individuals can do to cut costs etc etc. We all know of 'colleagues' who have been in longer who are less willing to do this. Does that make them more loyal? Just a thought, as I personally can't see a fairer method than LIFO that would be simple enough to arrive at.
PP
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Hate to say it peeps, but we've deviated (!)from the main issue - those out of work. Arguing about bmir vs. bmi etc etc just helps to foster hatred where it does not exist (apart from a few sad idiots from BOTH sides of the fence-or is it the same side?!)
Get a life and start to consider how we can help those out of work rather than resort to the usual PPrune method of pointless arguments.
A pilot is a pilot, at the end of the day, no matter what they fly or who they work for. We are all human, and we are all suffering in one way or another at the moment. We all have families, mortgages, or other commitments, and the VAST majority of us would not wish redundancy and the horrors it brings on anybody. Just hold back on typing hurtful and inflammatory comments here, and spend the time imagining how it feels to be out of work at the start of a downturn...
I'm VERY lucky to have missed the 'bullet' (for now), but it was that close that it puts everything in perspective. If you are so twisted that you feel the world has a vendetta against you, then please end it all now, and get another job. We don't need internal arguments and hatred stirring, we need co-operation and understanding.
There but for the grace of god go I.
Just remember that.
Get a life and start to consider how we can help those out of work rather than resort to the usual PPrune method of pointless arguments.
A pilot is a pilot, at the end of the day, no matter what they fly or who they work for. We are all human, and we are all suffering in one way or another at the moment. We all have families, mortgages, or other commitments, and the VAST majority of us would not wish redundancy and the horrors it brings on anybody. Just hold back on typing hurtful and inflammatory comments here, and spend the time imagining how it feels to be out of work at the start of a downturn...
I'm VERY lucky to have missed the 'bullet' (for now), but it was that close that it puts everything in perspective. If you are so twisted that you feel the world has a vendetta against you, then please end it all now, and get another job. We don't need internal arguments and hatred stirring, we need co-operation and understanding.
There but for the grace of god go I.
Just remember that.