BA to use Carmen rostering fleetwide???
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Which then begs the question if a Captain from another airline joins BA will he be discriminated against by a seniority system?
As his level of experience will not be comensurate with his seniority level...
As his level of experience will not be comensurate with his seniority level...
When a pilot changes company he leaves all his seniority behind with the old company and starts all over again at the bottom with the new one.
In my opinion this is quite right and proper.
The only exception might be when two companies merge then the seniority lists might be integrated with the agreement of all parties concerned.
In my opinion this is quite right and proper.
The only exception might be when two companies merge then the seniority lists might be integrated with the agreement of all parties concerned.
At the risk of being accused of being guilty of thread-creep (nothing new there) I don't think the "ageism" law due to come into force on 1st November 2006 has anything to do with seniority.
The way I understood the legislation when I read the blurb a couple of years ago was that after that date it will be illegal to specify a retirement age, unless there is an over-riding piece of existing legislation.
In my case this means that I have to retire at 65 (not 60) as a result of the JAR legislation already in force.
It will even be illegal to specify a retirement age for pension purposes. I would have thought that this is going to cause all sorts of problems for actuaries.
Going back to seniority; there is no existing legislation that allows the carry-forward of seniority from a previous company and it would be preposterous in any event.
Consider what would be likely to happen if such a rule existed; a good and loyal pilot who has served his company faithfully for 30 years could be shafted by some comedian from BA (for example) who takes retirement at 55 and moves in with 31 years of accumulated seniority with the old company.
Then we have a cutback. Who gets fired? Are you seriously telling me that it is supportable in law that the 30-year employee gets fired in favour of someone who has only been there for 5 minutes?
The way I understood the legislation when I read the blurb a couple of years ago was that after that date it will be illegal to specify a retirement age, unless there is an over-riding piece of existing legislation.
In my case this means that I have to retire at 65 (not 60) as a result of the JAR legislation already in force.
It will even be illegal to specify a retirement age for pension purposes. I would have thought that this is going to cause all sorts of problems for actuaries.
Going back to seniority; there is no existing legislation that allows the carry-forward of seniority from a previous company and it would be preposterous in any event.
Consider what would be likely to happen if such a rule existed; a good and loyal pilot who has served his company faithfully for 30 years could be shafted by some comedian from BA (for example) who takes retirement at 55 and moves in with 31 years of accumulated seniority with the old company.
Then we have a cutback. Who gets fired? Are you seriously telling me that it is supportable in law that the 30-year employee gets fired in favour of someone who has only been there for 5 minutes?
Last edited by JW411; 12th Oct 2005 at 13:51.
Junior trash
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I'm afraid that is the case, it is Age Discrimination legislation not just retirement age. Any discrimination by Age will now be illegal, and it was thought that as seniority is by its nature dependent on your age that it may be illegal. Balpa and BA's legal advice says that fortunately this is not the case.
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Justbelowcap - do you read the BALPA BA forum? Do you read the letters we get about work coverage and costs from PoD?
My flightdeck isn't full of the sound of laughter all the time, but thoughtful young FO's wondering if they haven't made a huge mistake joining BA.
I suspect that if BA's pensions review leads to the closure of NAPS you will see a steady stream of FO's leaving to Virgin and elsewhere. You may see some early retirements too.
I guess BA are quite happy with that and I am sure that the consulants have told BA they should get their pilot turn-over up.
I am entitled to my view as I see it, as are you, and I know from personal experience that I am not alone in my views. I am not "cabin crew". Are you "management", as your utopian view sure sounds like you could be!?
BA are hell bent on ripping up all the elements of the contract that made me join BA - pension and bidline being at the top of the list. To achieve same they are using every tactic in the book and trashing a once respectable and professional pilot force whilst they are at it. I dont see why they should get to do this unchallenged on what is, as the title proclaims, a rumour network!
Oh, and your thoughts on pay? Guess they dont stand up either as PoD's letter describes BA's pilots as an "on-going costs problem" - unlike wasting £40 million a year on needless industrial disputes with other staff groups, I suppose. I guess we can look forward to pay cuts too.
What colour is the sun on your planet!!?
My flightdeck isn't full of the sound of laughter all the time, but thoughtful young FO's wondering if they haven't made a huge mistake joining BA.
I suspect that if BA's pensions review leads to the closure of NAPS you will see a steady stream of FO's leaving to Virgin and elsewhere. You may see some early retirements too.
I guess BA are quite happy with that and I am sure that the consulants have told BA they should get their pilot turn-over up.
I am entitled to my view as I see it, as are you, and I know from personal experience that I am not alone in my views. I am not "cabin crew". Are you "management", as your utopian view sure sounds like you could be!?
BA are hell bent on ripping up all the elements of the contract that made me join BA - pension and bidline being at the top of the list. To achieve same they are using every tactic in the book and trashing a once respectable and professional pilot force whilst they are at it. I dont see why they should get to do this unchallenged on what is, as the title proclaims, a rumour network!
Oh, and your thoughts on pay? Guess they dont stand up either as PoD's letter describes BA's pilots as an "on-going costs problem" - unlike wasting £40 million a year on needless industrial disputes with other staff groups, I suppose. I guess we can look forward to pay cuts too.
What colour is the sun on your planet!!?
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JW 411,
you said.....
"But surely a bidline system is only good for those at the top of the seniority list?
For the many, many more who are at the bottom of the list "
Why are there many, many more people at the bottom of the list than at the top?
you said.....
"But surely a bidline system is only good for those at the top of the seniority list?
For the many, many more who are at the bottom of the list "
Why are there many, many more people at the bottom of the list than at the top?
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411 should bow out now
He/she is not in receipt of all the facts, me I am right at the bottom of bidline but at least I can still organise 3-4 nights out a month over weekends
No one is "shafting me"
He/she is not in receipt of all the facts, me I am right at the bottom of bidline but at least I can still organise 3-4 nights out a month over weekends No one is "shafting me"
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JW411 Anybody that has been following the J. Starmer case in BA would perhaps be surprised by the latest interpretations by the courts regarding discrimination legislation. Nothing will surprise me next October.
