JetBlue A320 landing at LAX
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Did anyone noticed in the Video that flames only erupted when the NW scraped over the centreline marking ?
Inbetween them, the fire got smaller or even extiguished.
Was that burning paint or only my imagination ?
Inbetween them, the fire got smaller or even extiguished.
Was that burning paint or only my imagination ?
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OK then, how about a castoring MAIN gear problem??
Read this:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...-BVKC_4-05.pdf
Read this:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...-BVKC_4-05.pdf
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I guess this incident is 'just another day at the office' for all you pilots, but the passengers on the aircraft sure thought that the safe landing was nothing short of spectacular. Of course, sitting up in that plane for 3 hours waiting for touchdown must have really been a nail-biter. Here's a link to an article in the New York Daily News with a bit of info about your compatriot.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-297803c.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-297803c.html
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Ozzy, not so fast. Google a dictionary definition for "crash landing". First two I found:
Noun - an emergency landing by an aircraft or spacecraft
Noun - an emergency landing under circumstances where a normal landing is impossible (usually damaging the aircraft)
OK, so the second does not quite fit as the aircraft wasn't damaged............................................thankfull y.
Back to the thread...................
Noun - an emergency landing by an aircraft or spacecraft
Noun - an emergency landing under circumstances where a normal landing is impossible (usually damaging the aircraft)
OK, so the second does not quite fit as the aircraft wasn't damaged............................................thankfull y.
Back to the thread...................
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Lift dumpers as the name suggests dump lift, reducing the ability to control the rate at which the nose wheel will touch, important.
Thrust reversers as the name suggests reverse thrust, with underslung engines an increase in thrust WILL create a pitch up moment (thrust vector below the a/c centre of gravity) therefore using reverse thrust will?
Anybody?
You guessed it, cause a nose down pitch (action and reaction equal and opposite), firmly planting the nosewheel onto the tarmac.
Elementary physics agreeing with the manufacturers QRH and manuals.
I can't believe anyone would question this but there you go!
As for not evacuating, a difficult decision to make when you are in that situation itself (note: the majority of injuries occur during evacuation), impossible to pass judgement when flying the armchair! Nobody was hurt, so obviously it was the right decision!
The point of this post?
They did a blindin' job and do not deserve to have their actions called into question by anyone.
PERIOD
Thrust reversers as the name suggests reverse thrust, with underslung engines an increase in thrust WILL create a pitch up moment (thrust vector below the a/c centre of gravity) therefore using reverse thrust will?
Anybody?
You guessed it, cause a nose down pitch (action and reaction equal and opposite), firmly planting the nosewheel onto the tarmac.
Elementary physics agreeing with the manufacturers QRH and manuals.
I can't believe anyone would question this but there you go!
As for not evacuating, a difficult decision to make when you are in that situation itself (note: the majority of injuries occur during evacuation), impossible to pass judgement when flying the armchair! Nobody was hurt, so obviously it was the right decision!
The point of this post?
They did a blindin' job and do not deserve to have their actions called into question by anyone.
PERIOD
Resident insomniac
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It was easy to see from the video (easy in hindsight!) that the 'flames' were 'just' abrasion of the (metal) along the runway (though of course sparks could easily have ignited leaking fluids).
I suspect that direct communication with the following Emergency Services provided information that, having stopped, there was no 'fire' - but it must have been a close (and cool) call.
Well done to all those involved.
Now can we have a second take for the cameras? Oh, I forgot, the cameras WERE rolling and it was a perfect first take!
I suspect that direct communication with the following Emergency Services provided information that, having stopped, there was no 'fire' - but it must have been a close (and cool) call.
Well done to all those involved.
Now can we have a second take for the cameras? Oh, I forgot, the cameras WERE rolling and it was a perfect first take!
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Not sure if someone has alredy posted this on PPRuNe.
In hindsight this recording, to a point does show how things can go one way or another based on individual decisions.
http://libsyn.com/media/joepodcaster/fwm85.mp3
rgds
edited for correct link
In hindsight this recording, to a point does show how things can go one way or another based on individual decisions.
http://libsyn.com/media/joepodcaster/fwm85.mp3
rgds
edited for correct link
Last edited by routechecker; 23rd Sep 2005 at 18:31.
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CPTN
Had a similar situation on a BAC 1-11 where nose wheel hit first and broke the wheels which ground the bottom of the shock strut along the runway. The hydraulic oil from the leg ( coming out under pressure !) caught fire in a similar fashion. The fire went out once the oil all burnt away.
Had a similar situation on a BAC 1-11 where nose wheel hit first and broke the wheels which ground the bottom of the shock strut along the runway. The hydraulic oil from the leg ( coming out under pressure !) caught fire in a similar fashion. The fire went out once the oil all burnt away.
The Reverend
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Tshirt,
It does'nt look like the fire was from oleo fluid on the photographs. The nose gear does not seem to have been ground down past the axles.
The hydraulic oil from the leg ( coming out under pressure !) caught fire in a similar fashion. The fire went out once the oil all burnt away
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fmgc asked:
fmgc: the answer is in the link provided by Routechecker:
http://libsyn.com/media/joepodcaster/fwm85.mp3
They had L/G shock absorber fault + NW steer fault.
And, yep, they did a flyby:
Picture here
Well the only one is "L/G SHOCK ABSORBER FAULT" and even then you must have "WHEEL N.W. STEER FAULT" in order to suspect a nosewheel alignment problem, (according to the book).
I am still interested to know what indications that these chaps had. Did they do a fly by?
I am still interested to know what indications that these chaps had. Did they do a fly by?
http://libsyn.com/media/joepodcaster/fwm85.mp3
They had L/G shock absorber fault + NW steer fault.
And, yep, they did a flyby:
Picture here
Last edited by sabenaboy; 24th Sep 2005 at 06:18.
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I've been reading and hearing a great deal about Spoilers and Thrust Reversers not being used during this landing, and with no proper answer being put forth, I wanted to share.
When the LGCIU or BSCU registers a level error - - the all-knowing brain
of the Bus locks the pilots out these decel modes. If the pilots wanted reversers or ground spoilers, the computer would respond with a non-negotiable - 'I'm afraid I can't do that Dave.....' message.
This particular bit of programming is designed to prevent gear collapse in the event of no lock gear extension or sundry other events, and in true Airbus fashion, the computer is pre-programmed to protect the pilots from actions that may cause a bad situation to get worse in foreseeable conditions.
Nosewheel 90deg questions - the BSCU/LGCIU system, upon discovery of a steering control error will drive the wheels to the 90 deg position automatically. Also, the strut is designed to take such a wheels akimbo landing, as has been demonstrated with nimbly successful if not spectacular results thus far.
Seeing this on live television, I was relieved upon safe landing, and found myself actually applauding the tube, mostly for the PIC , once the flames went out
All in all - Good job all around !
MO- Toulouse needs to address this area - one day we may have a pilot and/or situation that does not fit the designers' pre-destined logic flow, and we all know what can happen when that beast rears it's most un-lovely head. Perhaps another V2.04.22 B revision is due soon.
When the LGCIU or BSCU registers a level error - - the all-knowing brain
of the Bus locks the pilots out these decel modes. If the pilots wanted reversers or ground spoilers, the computer would respond with a non-negotiable - 'I'm afraid I can't do that Dave.....' message.This particular bit of programming is designed to prevent gear collapse in the event of no lock gear extension or sundry other events, and in true Airbus fashion, the computer is pre-programmed to protect the pilots from actions that may cause a bad situation to get worse in foreseeable conditions.
Nosewheel 90deg questions - the BSCU/LGCIU system, upon discovery of a steering control error will drive the wheels to the 90 deg position automatically. Also, the strut is designed to take such a wheels akimbo landing, as has been demonstrated with nimbly successful if not spectacular results thus far.
Seeing this on live television, I was relieved upon safe landing, and found myself actually applauding the tube, mostly for the PIC , once the flames went out
All in all - Good job all around !
MO- Toulouse needs to address this area - one day we may have a pilot and/or situation that does not fit the designers' pre-destined logic flow, and we all know what can happen when that beast rears it's most un-lovely head. Perhaps another V2.04.22 B revision is due soon.
Last edited by vapilot2004; 24th Sep 2005 at 07:03.
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When the LGCIU or BSCU registers a level error - - the all-knowing brain of the Bus locks the pilots out these decel modes. If the pilots wanted reversers or ground spoilers, the computer would respond with a non-negotiable - 'I'm afraid I can't do that Dave.....' message.
This particular bit of programming is designed to prevent gear collapse in the event of no lock gear extension or sundry other events, and in true Airbus fashion, the computer is pre-programmed to protect the pilots from actions that may cause a bad situation to get worse in foreseeable conditions.
This particular bit of programming is designed to prevent gear collapse in the event of no lock gear extension or sundry other events, and in true Airbus fashion, the computer is pre-programmed to protect the pilots from actions that may cause a bad situation to get worse in foreseeable conditions.
That is bul...it!!
I can assure you that reversers and ground spoilers CAN be deployed with an unsafe L/G indication. (The nosewheel steering will be inop because of the gravity gear extension asked for in the checklist)
Only with both LGCIU's at fault will the T/R's be inop
the all-knowing brain of the Bus locks the pilots out these decel modes. If the pilots wanted reversers or ground spoilers, the computer would respond with a non-negotiable - 'I'm afraid I can't do that Dave.....' message.
Remember what the first two P's in PPRuNe stands for?
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The reason that you can not get reverse thrust with a dual LGCIU failure is because the aeroplane doesn't know if it is on the ground or not and it is there to stop an inflight thrust reverser deployment.
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apologies sabenaboy, didn't mean to completely upset your sensibliities !
I admit, my OR should have been an AND . LGCIU AND BSCU/LGCIU. Imagine that - a human mistake typing logic functions.
Despite my mistype, please absorb my observance of the 'Airbus programmatic response and limitations' to/of our pilots in the cockpit.
This is a little discussed tenet of Airbus design - don't trust the pilots ! On balance,with worldwide airline cockpit staffing fully considered, the concept is very well intended - I am not entirely knocking the idea. Just need to work out some logic trees now and again to get things moving right, you know - and mostly it all seems to work very well !
And as far as stupid comments go my good gentleman, the 'I'm afraid I can't do that Dave' comment stands nonetheless. I have access to operations and maintenance data on these aircraft. Do I need to quote from the book ?
best regards and again, no offense intended - my missive was directed to inform and (or should that have been an OR) enlighten. 
And this flight's ending as have 7 like ones were without death or serious injury - for that we can all agree - is good, very good.
I admit, my OR should have been an AND . LGCIU AND BSCU/LGCIU. Imagine that - a human mistake typing logic functions.
Despite my mistype, please absorb my observance of the 'Airbus programmatic response and limitations' to/of our pilots in the cockpit.
This is a little discussed tenet of Airbus design - don't trust the pilots ! On balance,with worldwide airline cockpit staffing fully considered, the concept is very well intended - I am not entirely knocking the idea. Just need to work out some logic trees now and again to get things moving right, you know - and mostly it all seems to work very well !
And as far as stupid comments go my good gentleman, the 'I'm afraid I can't do that Dave' comment stands nonetheless. I have access to operations and maintenance data on these aircraft. Do I need to quote from the book ?
best regards and again, no offense intended - my missive was directed to inform and (or should that have been an OR) enlighten.
And this flight's ending as have 7 like ones were without death or serious injury - for that we can all agree - is good, very good.
Last edited by vapilot2004; 24th Sep 2005 at 09:48.
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This is a little discussed tenet of Airbus design - don't trust the pilots !
(Apolopies to any present-company persons of this fine name...)
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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It's a flaw if there's not a manual override for everything.
I like manual reversion in all flight controls, too, but that's not always possible, given the size of control surfaces and forces required to move them.
Sabenaboy,
Have a little respect! You could have disagreed with Vapilot's post with a little more civility. Just my opinion.
I like manual reversion in all flight controls, too, but that's not always possible, given the size of control surfaces and forces required to move them.
Sabenaboy,
Have a little respect! You could have disagreed with Vapilot's post with a little more civility. Just my opinion.
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This was an excellent example of how to deal with such an incident. A combination of QRH drills and common sense. However not sure that I would have walked around under the nose afterwards - in case the nose gear collapsed while I was there!
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The LGCIU's will not block T/R's when they "discover" an unlocked gear.
That would indeed be stupid.
When both LGCIU's have failed however T/r's will be inop because, as pointed out by Ramius, there's no way the aeroplane can know if it is on the ground or not and it is there to stop an inflight thrust reverser deployment.
That would indeed be stupid.
When both LGCIU's have failed however T/r's will be inop because, as pointed out by Ramius, there's no way the aeroplane can know if it is on the ground or not and it is there to stop an inflight thrust reverser deployment.
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Maintenance says "just an indicator"
I posted a recording of the in flight radio communications between the Jet Blue captain and his dispatcher/maintenance rep. Maintenance is heard saying "it's just an indicator problem, the gear is straight".
You can hear it in episode 8.5 of my podcast at http://flywithjoe.com
edit -- Sorry, I should have read the entire thread before I posted. Routechecker and sabenaboy already posted my link.
You can hear it in episode 8.5 of my podcast at http://flywithjoe.com
edit -- Sorry, I should have read the entire thread before I posted. Routechecker and sabenaboy already posted my link.