Daily Telegraph: 'Pilots 'under pressure to take risks'
As I recall it was the Daily Telegraph who first raised the issue of junior doctors working hours. The 'fear' culture within the medical profession lay in promotion prospects. This was in the days before organisations sued individuals.
Eventually doctors hours were improved when it became politically unnaceptable to have safety critical medical staff working through night and day. However, there was a cost involved. Somehow, the work junior doctors did through the night had to parcelled off elsewhere in the NHS.
A crackdown on commercial pressure and pilot fatigue would incur a cost in a viciously competative industry. More importantly, if the pressure was off the licensed pilot the travelling public would be safer.
Eventually doctors hours were improved when it became politically unnaceptable to have safety critical medical staff working through night and day. However, there was a cost involved. Somehow, the work junior doctors did through the night had to parcelled off elsewhere in the NHS.
A crackdown on commercial pressure and pilot fatigue would incur a cost in a viciously competative industry. More importantly, if the pressure was off the licensed pilot the travelling public would be safer.
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normal_nigel - I like having a go at Ryanair as much as the next man, but what is wrong with a 1500 hour captain? The CAA decided that 1500 hours is the minimum to be in command of a multi-crew aircraft, so whether you've got 1501 or 15001 hours, the licensing body thinks you're are capable.
Why should you or I think different?
Bear in mind also that many 1500 hour captains will have 1300+ hours on type!
Why should you or I think different?
Bear in mind also that many 1500 hour captains will have 1300+ hours on type!
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JW
Doesn't make it right and I'm afraid this isn't "The High and The Mighty" any more.
1500 hours is not generally sufficient to hold a command of a large transport aircraft in this day and age.
Sensible companies with a saftety culture generally have limits of around 3000 hours for jet commands.
It is particularly worrying as many of these LOCO captains on low hours have gained a lot of their "vast" experience on PA 28's in the circuit.
I certainly won't fly with any LOCO except EasyJet.
It worries me enough to be in the same airspace. The risk of encountering one of their low houred/ barely native speaking flight crew is too great
Doesn't make it right and I'm afraid this isn't "The High and The Mighty" any more.
1500 hours is not generally sufficient to hold a command of a large transport aircraft in this day and age.
Sensible companies with a saftety culture generally have limits of around 3000 hours for jet commands.
It is particularly worrying as many of these LOCO captains on low hours have gained a lot of their "vast" experience on PA 28's in the circuit.
I certainly won't fly with any LOCO except EasyJet.
It worries me enough to be in the same airspace. The risk of encountering one of their low houred/ barely native speaking flight crew is too great
Perhaps I should have mentioned that I received the very best training available in the world courtesy of the Royal Air Force.
I presume that you are also deeply unhappy about sharing your flight deck with a 200-hour cadet?
I presume that you are also deeply unhappy about sharing your flight deck with a 200-hour cadet?
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JW
On the contrary.
I delight in flying with 200 hour cadets as they tend to be the sharpest most talented FO's, especially when their experience levels grow.
If you check my posts you will see a vociferous defence of cadets on the Flying Instructor forum.
The ones I dislike flying with the most are the arrogant ex Air Force know it alls who think the world owes them a living and have a permanent chip on their shoulder about having to be an FO/wear two stripes/not being a fighter pilot any more/never making fast jet cut off/seniority/not being a Direct Entry command/being special because they have had the very best training in the world*
**
* try not to laugh
** delete as appropriate
On the contrary.
I delight in flying with 200 hour cadets as they tend to be the sharpest most talented FO's, especially when their experience levels grow.
If you check my posts you will see a vociferous defence of cadets on the Flying Instructor forum.
The ones I dislike flying with the most are the arrogant ex Air Force know it alls who think the world owes them a living and have a permanent chip on their shoulder about having to be an FO/wear two stripes/not being a fighter pilot any more/never making fast jet cut off/seniority/not being a Direct Entry command/being special because they have had the very best training in the world*
*** try not to laugh
** delete as appropriate
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...thread...
..can we please stay within the subject of this thread...
we are not talking about training, hours, sims, captains, etc...
now we are discussing here if the LoCo (some of them) pilots are under more pressure to take greater risks than ex-National carrier flights, basically is a BA, LH, AF etc pilot under more or less pressure to take risks than a Ryanair pilot?
Please let's try not to divert to the nearest airport here, there are so many issues all linked together, but this journalist needs to find out if there is a real threat to safety within the LoCo operations. He needs facts, stories, posts and I am pretty sure they would do a great job if we are consistent on here and we do not get involved in silly one to one confrontations: if I was a Ryanair top manager now I would try to do exactly that: I would come here and I will mess the thread all up with confusing conflicting messages...and the journalist would give up, defeated and confused.
Stories, facts, examples....pleaseeeeeeee!
Yes it is a rumour section here, but entire Revolutions started from a simple rumour...dont forget this!
we are not talking about training, hours, sims, captains, etc...
now we are discussing here if the LoCo (some of them) pilots are under more pressure to take greater risks than ex-National carrier flights, basically is a BA, LH, AF etc pilot under more or less pressure to take risks than a Ryanair pilot?
Please let's try not to divert to the nearest airport here, there are so many issues all linked together, but this journalist needs to find out if there is a real threat to safety within the LoCo operations. He needs facts, stories, posts and I am pretty sure they would do a great job if we are consistent on here and we do not get involved in silly one to one confrontations: if I was a Ryanair top manager now I would try to do exactly that: I would come here and I will mess the thread all up with confusing conflicting messages...and the journalist would give up, defeated and confused.
Stories, facts, examples....pleaseeeeeeee!
Yes it is a rumour section here, but entire Revolutions started from a simple rumour...dont forget this!
I too am very happy to fly with well-trained young men with 200 hours but, unlike you, I am more than happy to sign them off in the left seat when they have 1500 hours provided that they are up to standard and have jumped through all of the hoops.
Stand by for Lord Flasheart.
By the way, I never flew one single hour in a fighter aircraft so the sort of chap to whom you are referring is alien to me but Flashy might be able to shed some light.
Stand by for Lord Flasheart.
By the way, I never flew one single hour in a fighter aircraft so the sort of chap to whom you are referring is alien to me but Flashy might be able to shed some light.
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It doesn't matter who you work for in the modern world, every airline wants to make money and that means toeing the company line either low cost or Big Airways. The Captain always has the last say (as long as he is right). The three questions to ask of every descision are 1) is it SAFE? 2) is it legal? 3) is it in the company interest?
The answers show how far you should be prepared to go. Break rule 1 and you could go to jail - if you live. Rule 2 means loss of licence. Rule 3 means looking for a new job.
How far would you go?
The answers show how far you should be prepared to go. Break rule 1 and you could go to jail - if you live. Rule 2 means loss of licence. Rule 3 means looking for a new job.
How far would you go?
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Moving back to the initial thread, I've never felt any pressure whatsoever to fly an unservicable aircraft by my current employers (nor to operate in dodgy weather either). The only pressure I've ever felt is from cabin crew (on the sectors that get them home, never on the way out) and from dispatchers (either our own or third parties). I'm probably one of the lucky ones (unless we our compare salaries, routes, aircraft types...)
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Indirect pressure...
What about indirect pressure?
Rosters, fatigue, career prospect, logging faults, time keeping and so on.
Somebody spoke about a 6 on 2 off roster: is this just for LoCo pilots for example? How does this compare with a mainline roster?
6 on 2 off within Europe sounds a bit stretched to me!!!
How many sectors per day? Is this true?
Rosters, fatigue, career prospect, logging faults, time keeping and so on.
Somebody spoke about a 6 on 2 off roster: is this just for LoCo pilots for example? How does this compare with a mainline roster?
6 on 2 off within Europe sounds a bit stretched to me!!!
How many sectors per day? Is this true?
I call you back
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Can we stick to the tread please.
If you have no experience of the thread title's pressures or know nothing of it's existance then please post on the
" Modern Airline Management - Canonisation or Knighthood? " thread.
If you have no experience of the thread title's pressures or know nothing of it's existance then please post on the
" Modern Airline Management - Canonisation or Knighthood? " thread.
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ILS27LEFT
If you are referring to my 6/2 then for your info, all those days are 4 sectors without fail!
Even if I was rostered for a 2 sector, this will change in due course to a 4.
On top, once on a 2 sector afternoon I was told when I returned to hang around for 4 hours into the middle of the night till 2am, then position a very late arriving aircraft to another base, then taxi back to home base. This is because my hours on the day have allowed it to be done!
So instead of finishing as planned at 10pm, I had to finish at 3am, then drive home.
Now that's bloody pressure!!!
When I eventually retire I will blow the whistle, rest assured.
Accident Prawn
If you are referring to my 6/2 then for your info, all those days are 4 sectors without fail!
Even if I was rostered for a 2 sector, this will change in due course to a 4.
On top, once on a 2 sector afternoon I was told when I returned to hang around for 4 hours into the middle of the night till 2am, then position a very late arriving aircraft to another base, then taxi back to home base. This is because my hours on the day have allowed it to be done!
So instead of finishing as planned at 10pm, I had to finish at 3am, then drive home.
Now that's bloody pressure!!!
When I eventually retire I will blow the whistle, rest assured.
Accident Prawn
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Accident prawn...
Balmy you are not funny...we are being very serious here.
Please your diversion should be aborted.
Yes Accident Prawn I really did not know that such a roster could exist for pilots. The roster for a McDonald cleaner is probably better and more manageable!
Is this happening within Europe?
Is this just your specific case or this applies to all pilots working for your Co.?
Is this legal?
I understand your concerns about blowing the whistle now and you probably want to keep your job safe, but, if what you say is real and correct, we are not talking anymore about an elusive indirect pressure here, but a consistent, persisten, deep very high pressure on you: no doubts this can negatively affect your performance and safety, and the lives of hundreds of people.
I would suggest you to send an e-mail to the journalist, anonymously. If this a standard roster for your Company then something must be done and URGENTLY. They will find the facts.
Accident a quick question for you: would you say that your roster is a recipe for a disaster waiting to happen?
Have you ever experienced some sort of "excessive fatigue" due to this type of roster?
Have you ever underperformed because of this roster?
Is, in your experience, safety directly affected by this type of roster?
Basically if this roster is the "standard" roster for a certain group of pilots, I do not know how many, why we do not have many posts here against this horrendous shift pattern?
Is this because the others are happy, or they are just trying desperately to keep a job, does not matter what the conditions are? (most likely theory).
We cannot inject some managerials principles of "stretching people energies to the limit" into aviation otherwise safety will soon be a memory of the past.
Nobody wants a pilot unable to recognise a fault because of fatigue or stress, or unable to follow the correct emergency procedure because is on the 4th sector and he slpet 2 hours the nigth before. This is madness applied to aviation.
We are so maniacaly worried about a 0.00001mg of alchool in the pilots blood but we seem not to care about their psychological state and fatigue: very dangerous indeed!
The first feature of a pilot has always been the extremely high level of concentration skills and the absolute impeccable prompt reaction skills: this is what is needed when something goes wrong. This is achievable only if we make sure that all pilots (and Cabin Crew too!) are phisically and mentally fit to do the job, otherwise we are just at the beginning of a new era of recurrent accidents.
If some cowboy journalist has in the past used titles like "Drunken pilot arrested in his cockpit...!", please make sure that we do not forget that, if Accident has said the truth ( and I believe him), then there are several "Drunken pilots" just flying over our heads right now...legally. DRUNKEN OF FATIGUE!
"In the worst cases the pressures invloved are daily and relentless. Thanks to a handful of ruthless individuals safety within aviation has regressed by 30 years. It will take something major the bring it back up to date."
I HAVE NEVER HEARD SOMETHING SO TRUE!
"And what I\'m really talking about is the people who put guns to the heads of crews to do the above. I\'m talking about regulators who have been warned and still ignore the problem. And finally I\'m talking about those within the industry who keep their heads buried in the sand and say it isn\'t happening"
AGAIN: SPOTLESS STATEMENT
"As for the media. Investigative hacking needs a bit more thought than a post on Pprune. Try contacting handling agents at some more remote outposts, particularly those with unusual weather etc. Those people don\'t work for the airlines and will have stories on the main offenders"
EXCELLENT SUGGESTION
Please your diversion should be aborted.
Yes Accident Prawn I really did not know that such a roster could exist for pilots. The roster for a McDonald cleaner is probably better and more manageable!
Is this happening within Europe?
Is this just your specific case or this applies to all pilots working for your Co.?
Is this legal?
I understand your concerns about blowing the whistle now and you probably want to keep your job safe, but, if what you say is real and correct, we are not talking anymore about an elusive indirect pressure here, but a consistent, persisten, deep very high pressure on you: no doubts this can negatively affect your performance and safety, and the lives of hundreds of people.
I would suggest you to send an e-mail to the journalist, anonymously. If this a standard roster for your Company then something must be done and URGENTLY. They will find the facts.
Accident a quick question for you: would you say that your roster is a recipe for a disaster waiting to happen?
Have you ever experienced some sort of "excessive fatigue" due to this type of roster?
Have you ever underperformed because of this roster?
Is, in your experience, safety directly affected by this type of roster?
Basically if this roster is the "standard" roster for a certain group of pilots, I do not know how many, why we do not have many posts here against this horrendous shift pattern?
Is this because the others are happy, or they are just trying desperately to keep a job, does not matter what the conditions are? (most likely theory).
We cannot inject some managerials principles of "stretching people energies to the limit" into aviation otherwise safety will soon be a memory of the past.
Nobody wants a pilot unable to recognise a fault because of fatigue or stress, or unable to follow the correct emergency procedure because is on the 4th sector and he slpet 2 hours the nigth before. This is madness applied to aviation.
We are so maniacaly worried about a 0.00001mg of alchool in the pilots blood but we seem not to care about their psychological state and fatigue: very dangerous indeed!
The first feature of a pilot has always been the extremely high level of concentration skills and the absolute impeccable prompt reaction skills: this is what is needed when something goes wrong. This is achievable only if we make sure that all pilots (and Cabin Crew too!) are phisically and mentally fit to do the job, otherwise we are just at the beginning of a new era of recurrent accidents.
If some cowboy journalist has in the past used titles like "Drunken pilot arrested in his cockpit...!", please make sure that we do not forget that, if Accident has said the truth ( and I believe him), then there are several "Drunken pilots" just flying over our heads right now...legally. DRUNKEN OF FATIGUE!
"In the worst cases the pressures invloved are daily and relentless. Thanks to a handful of ruthless individuals safety within aviation has regressed by 30 years. It will take something major the bring it back up to date."
I HAVE NEVER HEARD SOMETHING SO TRUE!
"And what I\'m really talking about is the people who put guns to the heads of crews to do the above. I\'m talking about regulators who have been warned and still ignore the problem. And finally I\'m talking about those within the industry who keep their heads buried in the sand and say it isn\'t happening"
AGAIN: SPOTLESS STATEMENT
"As for the media. Investigative hacking needs a bit more thought than a post on Pprune. Try contacting handling agents at some more remote outposts, particularly those with unusual weather etc. Those people don\'t work for the airlines and will have stories on the main offenders"
EXCELLENT SUGGESTION
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I was really not trying to be funny at all....just trying to restore some sanity......go back and re-read what I have said earlier......I am not in any was suggesting that you don’t have a valid point.......but what appears to be being suggested here....of some kind of media witch hunt....is not going to do you, or the industry we love, any good at all.
From one of my earlier posts
____________________________________________
"Your company must have a flight safety officer or similar position and he should be open to being approached.....but I would make sure I was not a lone voice on the subject before the approach.....it would not go down well if you were shouting about it while the majority was saying "no problem".
If he (sorry or she) is not open to being approached on a subject like this then you (and he) really do have a problem."
____________________________________________
If you DO NOT have a significant number (or proportion) of fellow pilots in your company saying the same things you are, then if I were you, I would step back and have a little reality check.....and I don’t think you can just laugh off your fellow pilots as fools who are too scared of losing there jobs.......if they were really concerned, as you appear to be, then you can bet your boots they would acknowledge it.
If you DO have a significant number of fellow pilots with a similar view there really is a better way than what is being proposed in this thread.
I find it very interesting that all the post on this thread appear to be from a very small number of pilots
From one of my earlier posts
____________________________________________
"Your company must have a flight safety officer or similar position and he should be open to being approached.....but I would make sure I was not a lone voice on the subject before the approach.....it would not go down well if you were shouting about it while the majority was saying "no problem".
If he (sorry or she) is not open to being approached on a subject like this then you (and he) really do have a problem."
____________________________________________
If you DO NOT have a significant number (or proportion) of fellow pilots in your company saying the same things you are, then if I were you, I would step back and have a little reality check.....and I don’t think you can just laugh off your fellow pilots as fools who are too scared of losing there jobs.......if they were really concerned, as you appear to be, then you can bet your boots they would acknowledge it.
If you DO have a significant number of fellow pilots with a similar view there really is a better way than what is being proposed in this thread.
I find it very interesting that all the post on this thread appear to be from a very small number of pilots
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Balmy,
I'd watch yourself here.
ILS makes alarm bells ring. Daily Telegraph guy was upfront, don't know if you know ILS (shrug), just 20-30 questions. Odd. God know who it is.
No agenda here. balmy pm if you want.
Fos
I'd watch yourself here.
ILS makes alarm bells ring. Daily Telegraph guy was upfront, don't know if you know ILS (shrug), just 20-30 questions. Odd. God know who it is.
No agenda here. balmy pm if you want.
Fos
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...sanity!
I believe in sanity too and I do not think that keeping our head buried in the sand will not do any good neither, to use your words.
"Your company must have a flight safety officer or similar position and he should be open to being approached"
I do not have direct experience of LoCo operations, I have never worked for them, never been a passenger neither (choice), but I seriously doubt that the flight safety officer of a carrier with 6on2 off rosters is going to listen to Accident Prawn. You are not going to change an established Company culture in a few days or weeks, this takes a major incident or a major investigation from outside.
I agree. just a few pilots working for these Cos seem to be willing to post here on safety and pressure: you are right, this should mean that the problem is not as bad as thought, but I am also aware of human nature and I would probably think well before putting my job at risk.
Many of these pilots, might yes feel under pressure, but they still love their job and they would not change it for anything else.
The main issue is safety, nothing else.
Sometimes it is just the minority which is right (history teaches), and not because the rest are blind or deaf, but just because it is a lot easier to remain silent. It is safer for us, but not for the pax.
Only an indipendent investigation could help: if we had the possibility to send an under cover journalist with hidden cameras on one of these flights, this would be done straight away and then we will find out the truth.
Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to get airside without a ticket or pass, it is impossible to get on a flight without a ticket and impossible to get to the cockpit even with a ticket...the operational flying environment is perfectly sealed off. If something is really going wrong in a cockpit nobody really knows except a few pilots and some engineers, nobody else.
A journalist could never find out on his own.
Otherwise we would know the truth by now and maybe we will all change our minds or confirm our fears.
I have never directly experienced a LoCo operations, but I have read a lot of posts which seem genuinely scary.
If the web did not exist I would know NOTHING about it.
I know journalists often talk about a Boeing 321 or Airbus 737, but despite this they are good in getting public awareness which means political pressure...there are many examples in which a good newspaper has revealed unbelievable scandals, not just in the UK but everywhere in democratic societies and we should not be afraid of letting somebody else investigate on this delicate issue.
And if we discover it is all fine, then I will fly LoCo too and they will make even more money so they have got nothing to lose if they are so sure there is no pressure.
"Your company must have a flight safety officer or similar position and he should be open to being approached"
I do not have direct experience of LoCo operations, I have never worked for them, never been a passenger neither (choice), but I seriously doubt that the flight safety officer of a carrier with 6on2 off rosters is going to listen to Accident Prawn. You are not going to change an established Company culture in a few days or weeks, this takes a major incident or a major investigation from outside.
I agree. just a few pilots working for these Cos seem to be willing to post here on safety and pressure: you are right, this should mean that the problem is not as bad as thought, but I am also aware of human nature and I would probably think well before putting my job at risk.
Many of these pilots, might yes feel under pressure, but they still love their job and they would not change it for anything else.
The main issue is safety, nothing else.
Sometimes it is just the minority which is right (history teaches), and not because the rest are blind or deaf, but just because it is a lot easier to remain silent. It is safer for us, but not for the pax.
Only an indipendent investigation could help: if we had the possibility to send an under cover journalist with hidden cameras on one of these flights, this would be done straight away and then we will find out the truth.
Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to get airside without a ticket or pass, it is impossible to get on a flight without a ticket and impossible to get to the cockpit even with a ticket...the operational flying environment is perfectly sealed off. If something is really going wrong in a cockpit nobody really knows except a few pilots and some engineers, nobody else.
A journalist could never find out on his own.
Otherwise we would know the truth by now and maybe we will all change our minds or confirm our fears.
I have never directly experienced a LoCo operations, but I have read a lot of posts which seem genuinely scary.
If the web did not exist I would know NOTHING about it.
I know journalists often talk about a Boeing 321 or Airbus 737, but despite this they are good in getting public awareness which means political pressure...there are many examples in which a good newspaper has revealed unbelievable scandals, not just in the UK but everywhere in democratic societies and we should not be afraid of letting somebody else investigate on this delicate issue.
And if we discover it is all fine, then I will fly LoCo too and they will make even more money so they have got nothing to lose if they are so sure there is no pressure.
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Accident a quick question for you: would you say that your roster is a recipe for a disaster waiting to happen?
Have you ever experienced some sort of "excessive fatigue" due to this type of roster?
Have you ever underperformed because of this roster?
Is, in your experience, safety directly affected by this type of roster?
The situation is well known in the company. By far I am not alone even if nobody else is posting here right now. The company are trying to address the issue of crew numbers, but I regularly get a roster showing 85-95 hours flying/28days.
Very legal - very stupid!
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This is an difficult sitiuation.
I have used and enjoyed pprune to keep in contact with friends flying both military and civilian aircraft and am interested.
I do not not fly, lets make that clear. However I'm interested. So are other people. However other people are also interested.
And here we have the journalist problem.
There appears to be a severe paronoia problem with talking to journalists, yet they are castigated in the same thread. This paranoia extends to the belief that any poster is a member of management, or ANYother with a new user name.
You have to educate, hacks like Sleuth are asking for help, while ILS asks 20 or so questions and gets rightly shot down.
The public don't know, people on pprune know. What about a a FAQ section with retired pilots who could explain to journalists what may have happened. What rosters could mean depending what airport you live near.
You're the experts. you tell us.
I have used and enjoyed pprune to keep in contact with friends flying both military and civilian aircraft and am interested.
I do not not fly, lets make that clear. However I'm interested. So are other people. However other people are also interested.
And here we have the journalist problem.
There appears to be a severe paronoia problem with talking to journalists, yet they are castigated in the same thread. This paranoia extends to the belief that any poster is a member of management, or ANYother with a new user name.
You have to educate, hacks like Sleuth are asking for help, while ILS asks 20 or so questions and gets rightly shot down.
The public don't know, people on pprune know. What about a a FAQ section with retired pilots who could explain to journalists what may have happened. What rosters could mean depending what airport you live near.
You're the experts. you tell us.
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Fatigue and safety.
Excessive fatigue as in a type of fatigue which goes beyond average, acceptable, operationally-safe fatigue: a fatigue which makes difficult to concentrate or read/write, slowing down our alertness, impairing our analytical skills for example.
A fatigue which could prove crucial in case of a serious full scale emergency. A fatigue which could simply kill.
In many European motorways there are signs reminding the motorists to stop and rest: fatigue can kill. They say it.
Are these signs just for motorists or also LoCo pilots should be aware of the risks of fatigue: are those Companies making sure that their pilots are not over-used, over-stretched, over-rostered?
Why cannot I ask questions? Why shall I be shot down?
I am not a journalist, and I am not here trying to mistify your opinions, I am just here trying to understand if it is just full of anonymous false messages here or if there is a real safety issue within some Loco ops.
I am just open to change my mind if needed. Promise.
For now, I am certainly expecting more accidents, and I am convinced that a journalist could help us (all of us) in finding out if a wider publick awareness on this issue could put more pressure on the authorities.
A fatigue which could prove crucial in case of a serious full scale emergency. A fatigue which could simply kill.
In many European motorways there are signs reminding the motorists to stop and rest: fatigue can kill. They say it.
Are these signs just for motorists or also LoCo pilots should be aware of the risks of fatigue: are those Companies making sure that their pilots are not over-used, over-stretched, over-rostered?
Why cannot I ask questions? Why shall I be shot down?
I am not a journalist, and I am not here trying to mistify your opinions, I am just here trying to understand if it is just full of anonymous false messages here or if there is a real safety issue within some Loco ops.
I am just open to change my mind if needed. Promise.
For now, I am certainly expecting more accidents, and I am convinced that a journalist could help us (all of us) in finding out if a wider publick awareness on this issue could put more pressure on the authorities.