Mandala a/c crashes at Medan
lomapaseo & khaosanroad
PK-RAR posted this statement in Far East "I posted a pic in the news and rumour forum showing the crash site."
It clearly never did show the crash site, what it does show is someone approaching runway 05 for a landing 2-3 years ago.
If he wanted to show the 05 approach fair enough, no need to alter the image with "LOKASI CRASH" and also claim it was a picture "showing the crash site".
He has since said "should be rephrased into I posted a pic in the news and rumour forum to indicate where the aircraft rested, Sorry for the misunderstanding."
In light of the fake photos that arose from the greek accident, I think I had a valid point, or are you saying that those pictures were also "an accurate representation" and "quite informative" ?
PK-RAR posted this statement in Far East "I posted a pic in the news and rumour forum showing the crash site."
It clearly never did show the crash site, what it does show is someone approaching runway 05 for a landing 2-3 years ago.
If he wanted to show the 05 approach fair enough, no need to alter the image with "LOKASI CRASH" and also claim it was a picture "showing the crash site".
He has since said "should be rephrased into I posted a pic in the news and rumour forum to indicate where the aircraft rested, Sorry for the misunderstanding."
In light of the fake photos that arose from the greek accident, I think I had a valid point, or are you saying that those pictures were also "an accurate representation" and "quite informative" ?
Paxing All Over The World
swh I do not know you or PK-KAR but his explanation sounds as valid as your concern. May I suggest that you now accept his reasona and stop using which is considered sarcastic.
which is considered sarcastic.
PAXboy,
is hmm
is roll eyes (sarcastic)
That post was addressed to lomapaseo & khaosanroad to consider their posts in light of what PK-RAR did not say in this thread, but said elsewhere.
The press would get crucified if they used a 2-3 year old photo and claim it showed "the crash site" from a few days ago.
If we expect the press to be careful with their words, it would be fair to expect the same or better from our peers.
(that’s an ok)
is hmm is roll eyes (sarcastic)That post was addressed to lomapaseo & khaosanroad to consider their posts in light of what PK-RAR did not say in this thread, but said elsewhere.
The press would get crucified if they used a 2-3 year old photo and claim it showed "the crash site" from a few days ago.
If we expect the press to be careful with their words, it would be fair to expect the same or better from our peers.
(that’s an ok)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Somewhere in the Tropics UTC+7 to 9
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swh,
I'm not the press... I made a mistake of writing what I wrote without explaining it further in the far east forum, and you mentioned the fake here... However, that was that...
I think you had a valid point raising concerns thanks to the idiots who circulated the fake Helios photos but in this case others would find the picture as an informative description on where the aircraft crashed (yes, without the crash wreck being shown).
A picture of the actual crash site by a friend failed to materialize tuesday as it was closed due to the presidential visit (he landed there before the crash happened so no crash site photos from approach from him)... I guess by the time someone I know flies into Medan on a 05 approach, the wreck would have been cleaned up.
Enough on the pics... now with the investigation.
The NTSC announced last night that it found the aircraft engines' compressor blades had deformed. They're now sending the blades to Indonesian Aerospace to see what caused it and whether it caused a significant thrust output reduction which caused the aircraft to fail to take off.
A friend at the airline wrote: When I last used PK-RIM the EGT for the number 1 engine, with max reduced EPR of 1.96 or 93% N1 (OAT30C) the EGT reached 610C. The limits for the JT8D-15 is 630C (acceleration), 620C(t/o), 580C(MCT).
MES is a high load station. For the morning schedules, the passenger loads are high and same with the cargo. With the required fuel MES-CGK of about 10.6 tons. If taxi fuel is estimated at 600kgs, so the Gross Weight on impact (assuming accordance to weight limits and that MTOW had been reached) is 56.7 tons.
I shall not judge whether MES station likes to "manipulate" the cargo data. However, I once limited myself to a maximum regulated TOW (maximum weight to enable the aircraft to take off after factoring in aircraft limits, runway, and climb segments) to 50 tons. Normally with 50 tons gross weight, the aircraft should be able to taxi with idle thrust. However that time, the aircraft required significant thrust to taxi. I took the personal conclusion that the aircraft was over 50Tons. Since then I have taken a "safety margin" for myself and always reduce 500kgs from the maximum possible weight of the table.
Related to the weights above, I am quite sure that RI091 would have taken off with an EPR of more than 2.00 (>95% N1), hence the EGT would have exceeded 620C.
Guess we have to wait till the FDR has been deciphered.
Only public comments by the NTSC are:
1. Not terrorism
2. Black Boxes recovered.
3. No abnormalities in ATC conversation.
4. Weather as cause unlikely, can only be done by FDR analysis of aircraft trajectory.
5. Fuel problems (fuel lines? fuel quality?) has been issued.
6. Compressor deformation has been quoted and is investigated further.
7. Those who have taken pieces of the aircraft, please return them to enable the investigation to be conclusive. (Unfortunately, since it crashed into a densely populated areas, a lot of people have taken pieces of the aircraft away to sell as scrap... The NTSC has now appealed for the pieces to be returned so that hindrance to the investigation can be minimised.)
The media frenzy have started here... This morning one paper wrote that 3 tons of Durian was loaded and not in the manifest... There are other things been thrown in the air from a cellphone causing the crash to things to a freak gust, no claiming that the houses 300-500m from the runway end caused the tragedy... *shaking my head*
On a less serious note... SWH, Since when did I become PK-RAR ?
Btw, that photo with the "lokasi crash" was supplied by a local to Medan who visited the crash site himself... I hope no one's questioning whether the actual crash is within the "lokasi crash" circle or not.
PK-KAR
I'm not the press... I made a mistake of writing what I wrote without explaining it further in the far east forum, and you mentioned the fake here... However, that was that...
I think you had a valid point raising concerns thanks to the idiots who circulated the fake Helios photos but in this case others would find the picture as an informative description on where the aircraft crashed (yes, without the crash wreck being shown).
A picture of the actual crash site by a friend failed to materialize tuesday as it was closed due to the presidential visit (he landed there before the crash happened so no crash site photos from approach from him)... I guess by the time someone I know flies into Medan on a 05 approach, the wreck would have been cleaned up.
Enough on the pics... now with the investigation.
The NTSC announced last night that it found the aircraft engines' compressor blades had deformed. They're now sending the blades to Indonesian Aerospace to see what caused it and whether it caused a significant thrust output reduction which caused the aircraft to fail to take off.
A friend at the airline wrote: When I last used PK-RIM the EGT for the number 1 engine, with max reduced EPR of 1.96 or 93% N1 (OAT30C) the EGT reached 610C. The limits for the JT8D-15 is 630C (acceleration), 620C(t/o), 580C(MCT).
MES is a high load station. For the morning schedules, the passenger loads are high and same with the cargo. With the required fuel MES-CGK of about 10.6 tons. If taxi fuel is estimated at 600kgs, so the Gross Weight on impact (assuming accordance to weight limits and that MTOW had been reached) is 56.7 tons.
I shall not judge whether MES station likes to "manipulate" the cargo data. However, I once limited myself to a maximum regulated TOW (maximum weight to enable the aircraft to take off after factoring in aircraft limits, runway, and climb segments) to 50 tons. Normally with 50 tons gross weight, the aircraft should be able to taxi with idle thrust. However that time, the aircraft required significant thrust to taxi. I took the personal conclusion that the aircraft was over 50Tons. Since then I have taken a "safety margin" for myself and always reduce 500kgs from the maximum possible weight of the table.
Related to the weights above, I am quite sure that RI091 would have taken off with an EPR of more than 2.00 (>95% N1), hence the EGT would have exceeded 620C.
Guess we have to wait till the FDR has been deciphered.
Only public comments by the NTSC are:
1. Not terrorism
2. Black Boxes recovered.
3. No abnormalities in ATC conversation.
4. Weather as cause unlikely, can only be done by FDR analysis of aircraft trajectory.
5. Fuel problems (fuel lines? fuel quality?) has been issued.
6. Compressor deformation has been quoted and is investigated further.
7. Those who have taken pieces of the aircraft, please return them to enable the investigation to be conclusive. (Unfortunately, since it crashed into a densely populated areas, a lot of people have taken pieces of the aircraft away to sell as scrap... The NTSC has now appealed for the pieces to be returned so that hindrance to the investigation can be minimised.)
The media frenzy have started here... This morning one paper wrote that 3 tons of Durian was loaded and not in the manifest... There are other things been thrown in the air from a cellphone causing the crash to things to a freak gust, no claiming that the houses 300-500m from the runway end caused the tragedy... *shaking my head*
On a less serious note... SWH, Since when did I become PK-RAR ?
Btw, that photo with the "lokasi crash" was supplied by a local to Medan who visited the crash site himself... I hope no one's questioning whether the actual crash is within the "lokasi crash" circle or not.
PK-KAR
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North-West England
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aviation standards in Indonesia, and especially at fields like Medan, are rock bottom. Put it down to the usual mix of incompetence, corruption, and a third-world approach to professionalism. First-hand experience leads me to make these comments, after the fatal accidents in Solo City and Medan in the last 2 years. A great pity.
PK-KAR,
The information from "friend at the airline" with the high egt indications was posted word for word elsewhere a day before you posted it on here, some of your other posts bear a significant similarity to information elsewhere.
I was of the understanding that the aircraft drifted away from the extended centre line while decelerating, I therefore do question "whether the actual crash is within the "lokasi crash" circle or not"
The information from "friend at the airline" with the high egt indications was posted word for word elsewhere a day before you posted it on here, some of your other posts bear a significant similarity to information elsewhere.
I was of the understanding that the aircraft drifted away from the extended centre line while decelerating, I therefore do question "whether the actual crash is within the "lokasi crash" circle or not"
Let's find out in a few months, if the NTSB or Boeing is allowed access to the flight data recorder, whether the flaps and stab trim were set correctly, required EPR/N1 and correct takeoff speed bugs set and complied with.
Let's also find out what other flightcrew members can learn from it, and about density altitude, winds and runway length, whether all checklists were completed etc. Actual takeoff weight, versus whether it was up to the max. runway, climb or structural weight limit? This can help experienced pilots and especially the more inexperienced, around the world. How about the aircraft's recent maintenance and the fuel quantity in each wing?
Let's also find out what other flightcrew members can learn from it, and about density altitude, winds and runway length, whether all checklists were completed etc. Actual takeoff weight, versus whether it was up to the max. runway, climb or structural weight limit? This can help experienced pilots and especially the more inexperienced, around the world. How about the aircraft's recent maintenance and the fuel quantity in each wing?
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Somewhere in the Tropics UTC+7 to 9
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aviation standards in Indonesia, and especially at fields like Medan, are rock bottom. Put it down to the usual mix of incompetence, corruption, and a third-world approach to professionalism. First-hand experience leads me to make these comments, after the fatal accidents in Solo City and Medan in the last 2 years. A great pity.
U should feel lucky that you don't have to deal with it on a daily basis
SWH,
Well, I dunno who reads both places that's why
The initial description that the media gave also led me to believe that the aircraft crashed somewhere else... Until those sets of shots... the debris trail, then the "lokasi crash"...
Then the witness accounts began to take a more uniformed direction indicating where the aircraft went.
Nurries mate, I was also initially thinking "It couldn't have crashed that soon"...
--
Ignition,
Now the media is screaming "were there 2 tons of durian in the aircraft as "extra cargo"" ? But anyways...
But a TOW of 3 kgs below the MTOW on the loadsheet looks "iffy"... But if the culprits had done this "iffy" practice regularly and have gotten away with it so far, I'm sure something else must have happened that made it crash...
If "iffy" loadsheet was the/one of the cause(s) of the crash, this would not be the first time in Indonesia... Some people better be assigned to scraping burnt body remains off the crash site before being sent to being in charge of the loadsheet.
PK-KAR
U should feel lucky that you don't have to deal with it on a daily basis
SWH,
Well, I dunno who reads both places that's why
The initial description that the media gave also led me to believe that the aircraft crashed somewhere else... Until those sets of shots... the debris trail, then the "lokasi crash"...
Then the witness accounts began to take a more uniformed direction indicating where the aircraft went.
Nurries mate, I was also initially thinking "It couldn't have crashed that soon"...
--
Ignition,
Now the media is screaming "were there 2 tons of durian in the aircraft as "extra cargo"" ? But anyways...
But a TOW of 3 kgs below the MTOW on the loadsheet looks "iffy"... But if the culprits had done this "iffy" practice regularly and have gotten away with it so far, I'm sure something else must have happened that made it crash...
If "iffy" loadsheet was the/one of the cause(s) of the crash, this would not be the first time in Indonesia... Some people better be assigned to scraping burnt body remains off the crash site before being sent to being in charge of the loadsheet.
PK-KAR
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: tinos greece
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This article appears on today's Radar Vector page:
http://www.radarvector.com/2005/09/r...-get-more.html
http://www.radarvector.com/2005/09/r...-get-more.html
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A New View of the PK-RIM Crash
Apparently it's slowly emerging that the Mandala crash at Medan may well be a repeat of the PK-LID 737-200 crash (Lionair) in Jan 2002 at Pekan Baru.
outlined at this link.
No flap deployed for take-off....
Sounds feasible and matches survivor and eye-witness statements of a/c shaking from rotate.
outlined at this link.
No flap deployed for take-off....
Sounds feasible and matches survivor and eye-witness statements of a/c shaking from rotate.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Above 30,000 ft
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Catchup. I know this is still very preliminary but if flaps were not in the takeoff setting & the CVR has been recovered, would anyone know if the takeoff config warning was blaring away during the takeoff roll?
You will find this hard to believe but I saw a captain (from some place just north of Australia), take off from brakes release in the simulator with flaps up ignoring the takeoff warning horn all the way down the runway. The F/O just sat and watched impassively.
The F/O forgot to call rotate so the captain simply did not rotate which saved him from stalling. At 170 knots the aircraft was still boring down the runway horn blaring until the F/O said 'Sorry - Rotate" at 180 knots. The captain got away with it. If in fact this is what happened with the Mandala Airlines accident, then I can believe it. The lack of action by the F/O is a culture thing.
It is quite frightening to see these sort of chaps in command of 737's.
The F/O forgot to call rotate so the captain simply did not rotate which saved him from stalling. At 170 knots the aircraft was still boring down the runway horn blaring until the F/O said 'Sorry - Rotate" at 180 knots. The captain got away with it. If in fact this is what happened with the Mandala Airlines accident, then I can believe it. The lack of action by the F/O is a culture thing.
It is quite frightening to see these sort of chaps in command of 737's.
The Reverend
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Sydney,NSW,Australia
Posts: 2,020
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Pekanbaru link above:
It seems the aural warning CB was tripped so no takeoff warning would have sounded if they attempted to take off flapless.
Failure of the maintenance to identify the real problem on the aural warning CB, causes the CB to open during the accident and therefore is a contributing factor to the accident."
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Somewhere in the Tropics UTC+7 to 9
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lack of F/O action culture has disappeared from Mandala... Capts who didn't wanna play by the CRM were fired a while back... so did the F/Os...
It's more likely the compressor failure. A survivor may have seen fire coming out of the left engine during take off.
This would be consistent with RIM's high EGT from #1 and the compressor deformation found at the wreck.
The PK-LID case is well know that the crew were indisciplined (even by Indonesian standards). The aircraft was relatively light.
PK-RIM out of MES was heavy and at (or exceeded) MTOW. At 3000m of runway and no flaps the aircraft wouldn't have become airborne.
But then, who knows
PK-KAR
It's more likely the compressor failure. A survivor may have seen fire coming out of the left engine during take off.
This would be consistent with RIM's high EGT from #1 and the compressor deformation found at the wreck.
The PK-LID case is well know that the crew were indisciplined (even by Indonesian standards). The aircraft was relatively light.
PK-RIM out of MES was heavy and at (or exceeded) MTOW. At 3000m of runway and no flaps the aircraft wouldn't have become airborne.
But then, who knows
PK-KAR
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
I know it has been a long time, but for those that are interested here is the final report. Takeoff atempted with flaps and slats retracted. Tail scraped runway on rotation. CVR was very poor but no takeoff warning horn sounded.
Always check your killer items before takeoff. Flaps, trims, speedbrake handle, maybe pitot heat. Anything else?
http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_av...ala_PK-RIM.pdf
Always check your killer items before takeoff. Flaps, trims, speedbrake handle, maybe pitot heat. Anything else?
http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_av...ala_PK-RIM.pdf
