Regarding BA layoffs
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I've yet to meet a CSD under 40 but met plenty of co-drivers with a lake behind each ear 'ole (especially from LGW).
Does it **** me off that a longhaul CSD earns more than a Duty Engineer? Yep.
Do the cabin crew have a strong union when compared to the engineers? Yep.
Life sux, eh?
Live with it......
Does it **** me off that a longhaul CSD earns more than a Duty Engineer? Yep.
Do the cabin crew have a strong union when compared to the engineers? Yep.
Life sux, eh?
Live with it......
Mistrust in Management
WW11ACE,
You state,<<bottom CSD shorthaul (ie new as can be) could be new contract so considerably less.>>
Somewhat irrelevant I think as all CSD's pay scales are as per 'old contract'.
Still lets not let facts get in the way of a good story.
Regards
Exeng
You state,<<bottom CSD shorthaul (ie new as can be) could be new contract so considerably less.>>
Somewhat irrelevant I think as all CSD's pay scales are as per 'old contract'.
Still lets not let facts get in the way of a good story.
Regards
Exeng
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Why do BA even have CSD's?
Does any other airline have them?
The BA AML operations to the Caribbean operate EXREMELY well with a lead purser (No silver badge required!)
If we are talking 'market rate' here, let's apply it to ALL areas, and not just selectively!
Incidentally, only 2 crew members (3 including flight engineers) are REQUIRED to hold ANY professional qualification. (On long haul at least, the co-pilot's professional qualification is the same as the skippers - due to the fact that the captain is absent from the flight deck for long periods on rest)
If the CSD goes sick down route, is the a/c grounded?
If the co-pilot goes sick, can the captain fly it back on his own?
Let's all take a sensible pill eh!
Does any other airline have them?
The BA AML operations to the Caribbean operate EXREMELY well with a lead purser (No silver badge required!)
If we are talking 'market rate' here, let's apply it to ALL areas, and not just selectively!
Incidentally, only 2 crew members (3 including flight engineers) are REQUIRED to hold ANY professional qualification. (On long haul at least, the co-pilot's professional qualification is the same as the skippers - due to the fact that the captain is absent from the flight deck for long periods on rest)
If the CSD goes sick down route, is the a/c grounded?
If the co-pilot goes sick, can the captain fly it back on his own?
Let's all take a sensible pill eh!
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Absolutely right Tandem. I've been saying this for some time now.
If you look at LGW there are no CSDs. Even when we operated the 757 from LGW we didn't have a CSD. In my opinion there is no need for a CSD on any of our shorthaul aircraft. I could be persuaded they are needed on LH to (supposedly) co-oridnate the 3 ghettos on the aircraft, but deifinitely not on the SH fleets. The Pursers og LGW do a better job than the CSDs I've experienced and they're getting paid a shed load less = BIG savings for the company. I reckon they should be offered LH positions if (a)they are available and (b)the CSD is senior eneough and if neither of these apply then tell them it's Purser or bust......and for the desenters; yes you can do that according to employment law.
While we're at it what about the other management strata; MCSeseses? I thought the CSDs got their pay rise because overnight they became more 'managerial'. I can't say I noticed a difference, but the main point is that they are allegedly now performing the same role as an MSC (and getting paid handsomely for it) so why do we still employ the 'sit around in 1st and pretend to write reports brigade'.
Unfortunately nobody listens to the rants of people like me so all the yes people will continue to surround themselves in more of the same, so they can take the fall when the time comes and suddenly we've got 20000 too many people who did little/nothing towards the airline.....but what's this; are you saying that's already happened. Surely not
Later,
Pontius
If you look at LGW there are no CSDs. Even when we operated the 757 from LGW we didn't have a CSD. In my opinion there is no need for a CSD on any of our shorthaul aircraft. I could be persuaded they are needed on LH to (supposedly) co-oridnate the 3 ghettos on the aircraft, but deifinitely not on the SH fleets. The Pursers og LGW do a better job than the CSDs I've experienced and they're getting paid a shed load less = BIG savings for the company. I reckon they should be offered LH positions if (a)they are available and (b)the CSD is senior eneough and if neither of these apply then tell them it's Purser or bust......and for the desenters; yes you can do that according to employment law.
While we're at it what about the other management strata; MCSeseses? I thought the CSDs got their pay rise because overnight they became more 'managerial'. I can't say I noticed a difference, but the main point is that they are allegedly now performing the same role as an MSC (and getting paid handsomely for it) so why do we still employ the 'sit around in 1st and pretend to write reports brigade'.
Unfortunately nobody listens to the rants of people like me so all the yes people will continue to surround themselves in more of the same, so they can take the fall when the time comes and suddenly we've got 20000 too many people who did little/nothing towards the airline.....but what's this; are you saying that's already happened. Surely not
Later,
Pontius
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All airlines have some kind of CSD whether they call them, Lead Flight Attendant,Customer Service Manager, Cabin Manager,Chef de Cabine,Chief Purser, the list is endless some job different title.It is not a position that is unique to BA.
Basic starting salary is not £28,000, more like £26,000 and that is only for someone who started before 1997.
Why the big attack on CSD's?
A well lead cabin crew team deliver excellent customer service, which ensures repeat business, which means we all have aircraft to fly and money in the bank.
The in-charge cabin crew member is the custodian of customer service. All airlines need a responsible, accountable person, with excellent people skills to be in charge of the cabin.
Believe me the selection process at BA to become a CSD is hard and highly competative,
most applicants try again and again before they are successful.
Basic starting salary is not £28,000, more like £26,000 and that is only for someone who started before 1997.
Why the big attack on CSD's?
A well lead cabin crew team deliver excellent customer service, which ensures repeat business, which means we all have aircraft to fly and money in the bank.
The in-charge cabin crew member is the custodian of customer service. All airlines need a responsible, accountable person, with excellent people skills to be in charge of the cabin.
Believe me the selection process at BA to become a CSD is hard and highly competative,
most applicants try again and again before they are successful.
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Well as I fly short haul and regularly position short haul I can say with honesty that I can see absolutely no difference whatsoever between the service provided by a CSD and a Purser, neither in terms of CRm or customer service. I am wholly unconvinced of the need to have the CSD role on any short haul aircraft. Yes, some of them are very good, but so are many Pursers. I have no wish to denigrate the people who are CSDs, but I think the role of CSD in short haul should be eliminated.
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its also interesting to see that since the first mooted job losses etc has ANYONE being given notice? in know it has to go through unions etc, but why is it the other airlines, VS, BMI, charters etc have moved NOW, while we wait on our butts, by the time it all happens, it may be not enough and a little to late. i see at least 25% (18,000) job losses as more accurate and to be in with a chance of survival. too many office people doing not alot fast enough. leave front line alone and cut the dead wood out!
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Dear all,
Have any of you (as pilots) been offered to cut your flying duties?? ie: 75% contract or is this not workable for pilots?? My girlfriend and I both took the offer (today) of the 75% contact for 1 year when finacially it will make life that bit more difficult for us. (plan to marry in 2002). Anyway sorry to bore but is this an offer and would anyone consider working 21 days and off 7 ???
I know we have grounded planes so there must be an excess of you lovely flyers!!!!
Pete
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: Peter L ]
Have any of you (as pilots) been offered to cut your flying duties?? ie: 75% contract or is this not workable for pilots?? My girlfriend and I both took the offer (today) of the 75% contact for 1 year when finacially it will make life that bit more difficult for us. (plan to marry in 2002). Anyway sorry to bore but is this an offer and would anyone consider working 21 days and off 7 ???
I know we have grounded planes so there must be an excess of you lovely flyers!!!!
Pete
[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: Peter L ]
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As an "outsider" looking in I always thought that the "CSD issue" optimized what was wrong with BA; too many Chiefs, not enough Indians. Poor analogy I know, but following on from a previous contributor, it makes not one iota of difference whehter junior or senior member of staff hands out the infamous deli-bag on short-haul. Lets face it, how can being a CSD enhance the process of giving out a brown paper bag?
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Oh yes other airlines have the CSD. bmi has the FSM (Flight Service Manager) and another one CSM? on the long haul routes.
Days of the Gulf War FSM had to work as No1 or Flight Supervisor`s ie a Purser.
I also wonder why you have an CSD or FSM on short haul when you have a Purser on board. I believe it has come about when the 767 came on to BA short haul routes.
But dont quote me as I was not about then.
As for the travel agents commission. This has nothing to do with BA Holidays. The commission that was being talked about was the schedule flights commission. Which went into the Travel agents pocket and not the Sales Consultant`s who booked the flight. 99% of people booking flights in a travel agents really do not care who they fly with. Cost is the factor. Even when trying to sell a holiday and you say the flight is with BA (EOG and Maersk-BA charters) the customer does not care whether the flight is with BY or AMM.
Tour Operators agree the commissiom rate with the different travel agents and it is usually between 15-20%. The house tour op. pays the most commission, ie Lunn Poly and Thomsons, JMC and Thomas Cook.
BA Holidays are booked by all high street travel agents, and they compete with the likes of Hayes and Jarvis (First Choice owned) Tradewinds (Airtours) and the Sales consultant will try to swop you to the house brand. Specially Thomas Cook before Thomas Cook Holidays and BA Holidays merged, they competed very much with a simlar product.
The brochures may not be racked because of comerical pressure, but they are available if you ask.
[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]
Days of the Gulf War FSM had to work as No1 or Flight Supervisor`s ie a Purser.
I also wonder why you have an CSD or FSM on short haul when you have a Purser on board. I believe it has come about when the 767 came on to BA short haul routes.
But dont quote me as I was not about then.
As for the travel agents commission. This has nothing to do with BA Holidays. The commission that was being talked about was the schedule flights commission. Which went into the Travel agents pocket and not the Sales Consultant`s who booked the flight. 99% of people booking flights in a travel agents really do not care who they fly with. Cost is the factor. Even when trying to sell a holiday and you say the flight is with BA (EOG and Maersk-BA charters) the customer does not care whether the flight is with BY or AMM.
Tour Operators agree the commissiom rate with the different travel agents and it is usually between 15-20%. The house tour op. pays the most commission, ie Lunn Poly and Thomsons, JMC and Thomas Cook.
BA Holidays are booked by all high street travel agents, and they compete with the likes of Hayes and Jarvis (First Choice owned) Tradewinds (Airtours) and the Sales consultant will try to swop you to the house brand. Specially Thomas Cook before Thomas Cook Holidays and BA Holidays merged, they competed very much with a simlar product.
The brochures may not be racked because of comerical pressure, but they are available if you ask.
[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]
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Porky Speedpig
Now that would be interesting...!
Go on then all you cabin crew reading this, what are your general pay scale rates?
They are never generally published as BALPA does with the pilot ones.
For everyone's information a BA Longhaul CSD can earn £3500+ variable pay in a MONTH on top of their basic £32000+. (No typos here and I've got the proof too). That is £74000pa.
I'm NOT saying it is too much, but would like the PPRuNe readership to make their own mind up.
As for the original thread we have again gone off subject. Any more news on BA lay offs?
Now that would be interesting...!
Go on then all you cabin crew reading this, what are your general pay scale rates?
They are never generally published as BALPA does with the pilot ones.
For everyone's information a BA Longhaul CSD can earn £3500+ variable pay in a MONTH on top of their basic £32000+. (No typos here and I've got the proof too). That is £74000pa.
I'm NOT saying it is too much, but would like the PPRuNe readership to make their own mind up.
As for the original thread we have again gone off subject. Any more news on BA lay offs?
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zombie speak with very large fork tounge. it is more in the region of £35,000 p.a as a more accurate figure, and from that take out pension, share save scheme (£50 pm) i also speak from marital experience with my better half being a CSD WBA LHR
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OK Main Crew BA LHR EuroFleet new contract with cabin crew experience since 1988. No1 with BD 9 years, SEP and Security Trainer who trained both pilots and cabin crew.
Also understands travel agents commission!
Basic £9200 pa
Allowances £850-£900 pm.
NB if on leave or if ever sick allowances go down.
[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]
Also understands travel agents commission!
Basic £9200 pa
Allowances £850-£900 pm.
NB if on leave or if ever sick allowances go down.
[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: euroboy ]
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thewwIIace
'it is more in the region of £35,000 p.a as a more accurate figure'
Thanks for the info. As I said, a basic pay of £32000+. Then on top, you have the variable payments which can be £3500+ per month especially in Longhaul.That is £74000pa.
Getting back to the real thread here. I heard a rumour that the 7000 layoffs is still not enough and another 3000+ head count reduction to follow early in November(7th). Working on a straight percentage basis compared to the previous figures that is 4% capacity, 160 pilots and 985 cabin crew.
This is yet to be comfirmed in any way and so I hope it to be just rumour.
'it is more in the region of £35,000 p.a as a more accurate figure'
Thanks for the info. As I said, a basic pay of £32000+. Then on top, you have the variable payments which can be £3500+ per month especially in Longhaul.That is £74000pa.
Getting back to the real thread here. I heard a rumour that the 7000 layoffs is still not enough and another 3000+ head count reduction to follow early in November(7th). Working on a straight percentage basis compared to the previous figures that is 4% capacity, 160 pilots and 985 cabin crew.
This is yet to be comfirmed in any way and so I hope it to be just rumour.
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Most Flight Crew jobs to be saved by the "demographic curve" and the take up of part-time and unpaid leave, plus the taking on of Qantas B744 flights to Sydney while they take up the Ansett slack for 6 months.
Good news, I think!
The pilots starting 29 Oct would have signed contracts and resigned 3 months ago. BA have honoured all verbal and written contracts of employment given pre 11 Sept. Bloody good of them really when they could have told everyone "tough sh*t".
Good news, I think!
The pilots starting 29 Oct would have signed contracts and resigned 3 months ago. BA have honoured all verbal and written contracts of employment given pre 11 Sept. Bloody good of them really when they could have told everyone "tough sh*t".