Maintenance standards
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maintenence standards
just read this article, rather worrying for those of us who frequently fly with european operators, hope it just paper talk http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/t...ixtrvhome.html
Last edited by LONGBOW1; 29th Aug 2005 at 19:05.
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Longbow,
It is not just rhetoric; I know Bob Alway and he is reflecting concerns expressed by quite a few LAEs. The commercial pressure is huge and I know of engineers coerced to sign-off regardless or intimidated for being responsible inspectors.
It is not just rhetoric; I know Bob Alway and he is reflecting concerns expressed by quite a few LAEs. The commercial pressure is huge and I know of engineers coerced to sign-off regardless or intimidated for being responsible inspectors.
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LONGBOW1
that's funny, I just read the article again and can't find mention of "lo (sic) cost operators", just Seems to me it's "a never-ending quest to save money" and "the financial wizards are running the show" which could apply to a lot of so-called "full service airlines".
that's funny, I just read the article again and can't find mention of "lo (sic) cost operators", just Seems to me it's "a never-ending quest to save money" and "the financial wizards are running the show" which could apply to a lot of so-called "full service airlines".
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What's the point of referring to accidents that happened so recently the investigations have barely begun and no-one can say with any certainty whether maintenance was a factor??
Is that really good journalism.......or merely trying to sell newspapers??
Is that really good journalism.......or merely trying to sell newspapers??
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I have sympathy for the engineers.
Lets not forget that without them we wouldn't be able to carry out our own functions so smoothly.
As far as journalism goes, the article didn't actually state that maintenance was the cause of any of the recent tragic events, it did however infer. When compared with other articles I think this one remained pretty level headed. Not sure about the accuracy of the comment though.
I think it should be a cause of concern , last week an article from a concerned pilot, this week from concerned engineers.
Will anything change, probably not.
One other interesting fact ........our recent thread has had over 30,000 hits, look at this one. I do feel a bit guilty about that, if they get it wrong, we could be in big trouble up there!
Lets not forget that without them we wouldn't be able to carry out our own functions so smoothly.
As far as journalism goes, the article didn't actually state that maintenance was the cause of any of the recent tragic events, it did however infer. When compared with other articles I think this one remained pretty level headed. Not sure about the accuracy of the comment though.
I think it should be a cause of concern , last week an article from a concerned pilot, this week from concerned engineers.
Will anything change, probably not.
One other interesting fact ........our recent thread has had over 30,000 hits, look at this one. I do feel a bit guilty about that, if they get it wrong, we could be in big trouble up there!
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Yamaha,
It is worth pointing out that maintenance error has overtaken CFIT/pilot error as a major factor in recent accidents and incidents. However, this should be qualified with the fact that aviation safety has (overall) improved but maintenance has not improved at the same rate.
Mandatory Human Factors training for maintenance engineers focusses on those error-provoking conditions to which the LAE is most prone. If nothing is done to remove these conditions, the LAE is left to cope with them to the best of her/his ability and the potential for error remains high.
It is worth pointing out that maintenance error has overtaken CFIT/pilot error as a major factor in recent accidents and incidents. However, this should be qualified with the fact that aviation safety has (overall) improved but maintenance has not improved at the same rate.
Mandatory Human Factors training for maintenance engineers focusses on those error-provoking conditions to which the LAE is most prone. If nothing is done to remove these conditions, the LAE is left to cope with them to the best of her/his ability and the potential for error remains high.
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Mandatory Human Factors training for maintenance engineers focusses on those error-provoking conditions to which the LAE is most prone. If nothing is done to remove these conditions
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Hello everybody.
In my opinion, and looking at theses types of problems (maintenance etc) in North America you can see things from a different perspective.
I would be rather flying with Southwest (US low-cost with strong and good maintenance ops + good business plan) then with UAL, Delta, NWA or any other quite troubled "major".
Also, you just think or assume, whichever, that once you get a finished product everything is by the book. Think again where we (assuming "us" to be on the manufacturer side) maybe screwed up or didn't thing plausible (huh, triple systems failure, was it on DC 10 in Utah, right)?!
We highly rely on you guys with the feedback but somehow (I have a, let's say, 15 yrs background in the industry) I don't see it, probably because of lack of communication.
What I mean is a lousy feedback on relations manufacturer (engineering staff of course) - maintenance facilities (airline or independent) - flight crews and vice versa with all possible combinations.
Information goes all the way around only in case of catastrophic events, which is a pity.
Every single manufacturer is trying to hide all the flaws, naturally, but somehow sooner or latter this things float so everybody can see them and we all now what tends to float.
From my point of view more communication on P2P level (not directors, customer reps etc but people who do the real work) would do a great deal of help.
Sometime it is frustrating to get info from customers through layers and layers of bureaucracy on both sides. When you seed through all this you waste so much time that you just wan to get over with which is wrong and it shows.
Controls and regulations are established in order to protect from these accidents happening but somehow the system became so "parasitic" in its essence that in order to follow on with some urgent issue sometimes takes too long. Sadly for those who perished.
In my opinion, and looking at theses types of problems (maintenance etc) in North America you can see things from a different perspective.
I would be rather flying with Southwest (US low-cost with strong and good maintenance ops + good business plan) then with UAL, Delta, NWA or any other quite troubled "major".
Also, you just think or assume, whichever, that once you get a finished product everything is by the book. Think again where we (assuming "us" to be on the manufacturer side) maybe screwed up or didn't thing plausible (huh, triple systems failure, was it on DC 10 in Utah, right)?!
We highly rely on you guys with the feedback but somehow (I have a, let's say, 15 yrs background in the industry) I don't see it, probably because of lack of communication.
What I mean is a lousy feedback on relations manufacturer (engineering staff of course) - maintenance facilities (airline or independent) - flight crews and vice versa with all possible combinations.
Information goes all the way around only in case of catastrophic events, which is a pity.
Every single manufacturer is trying to hide all the flaws, naturally, but somehow sooner or latter this things float so everybody can see them and we all now what tends to float.
From my point of view more communication on P2P level (not directors, customer reps etc but people who do the real work) would do a great deal of help.
Sometime it is frustrating to get info from customers through layers and layers of bureaucracy on both sides. When you seed through all this you waste so much time that you just wan to get over with which is wrong and it shows.
Controls and regulations are established in order to protect from these accidents happening but somehow the system became so "parasitic" in its essence that in order to follow on with some urgent issue sometimes takes too long. Sadly for those who perished.
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Longbow, can you explain to us why you chose to edit the article and headline it, concern to those of us using lo-cost airlines. Where in the article does it mention low-cost aiorlines as being more likely to be the culprits. Please explain yourself or say something constructive instead of having yet another of those cheap digs at easyJet, Ryanair, et al!
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sorry, i do apologise, i have amended the offending bit, i fly regulary with ryanair bmi baby etc and i have no doubt that the standards of engineering are no different from any one else i just find it a bit worrying as i fly a hell of a lot when people of the standing of the association of licensed aircraft engineers express concern
US communication problems between aircraft manufacturing, airlines, and the FAA and DOT? The DOT needs more political back-up to report problems to Congress, and control the FAA, for a start. And which jobs are political appointees? As in the funny "Black Adder" (BBC America) episode when the quirky redheaded lady reminded her advisor in a shrill, sexy voice, "WHO is the Queen?" (Miranda Richardson?)
Ja, you must be choking!
Our US legal/court system is so far off the track, with desperate tort reform blocked, mostly by the Democratic Party (i.e. N.C. Senator John Edwards), that the (#1) prime objective is to avoid liability, which can result in HUGE lawsuits against ANY major corporation, thereby allowing certain select law firms (the firm in Pascagoula, MS earned about $1,000,000,000 US suing well-established tobacco companies to bring in state revenue: the class-action plantiffs normally receive only a small fraction: hopefully, THAT FIRM was blown away by hurricane Katrina's megawaves
with few regrets from corporate America or the US medical system-check how most doctors voted in the last elections) to bring in H-U-G-E ca$h settlements.
This culture/society designed for personal/corporate self-protection leads to many safety problems in US airline operations.
Another problem is from the reporting of so-called on time statistics (+ or - 14 minutes from scheduled arrival...) to the US DOT (Dept. of Trans.)-this results in constant pressure on pilots, tedchnicians, loading personnel and gate agents to squeeze everything together. Unbelievable safety compromises result, i.e. when OUR aircraft's weight and balance data was under-reported by exactly 14,000 pounds for a planned gross weight at about 98,000 pounds!-this was just one example! When a problem happens overseas with a certification flaw (ATR-42...Europe, then "allegedly
hidden" or "forgotten" information leading to the Roselawn tragedy) or deregulation creating a need to quickly rubber-stamp aircraft operating manuals (Air Florida B-737), then even a huge. disjointed, over-bloated bureaucracy, in order to avoid smearing the White House image, goes into its standard, well-rehearsed, self-protection mode.
Ja, you must be choking!
Our US legal/court system is so far off the track, with desperate tort reform blocked, mostly by the Democratic Party (i.e. N.C. Senator John Edwards), that the (#1) prime objective is to avoid liability, which can result in HUGE lawsuits against ANY major corporation, thereby allowing certain select law firms (the firm in Pascagoula, MS earned about $1,000,000,000 US suing well-established tobacco companies to bring in state revenue: the class-action plantiffs normally receive only a small fraction: hopefully, THAT FIRM was blown away by hurricane Katrina's megawaves
with few regrets from corporate America or the US medical system-check how most doctors voted in the last elections) to bring in H-U-G-E ca$h settlements.This culture/society designed for personal/corporate self-protection leads to many safety problems in US airline operations.
Another problem is from the reporting of so-called on time statistics (+ or - 14 minutes from scheduled arrival...) to the US DOT (Dept. of Trans.)-this results in constant pressure on pilots, tedchnicians, loading personnel and gate agents to squeeze everything together. Unbelievable safety compromises result, i.e. when OUR aircraft's weight and balance data was under-reported by exactly 14,000 pounds for a planned gross weight at about 98,000 pounds!-this was just one example! When a problem happens overseas with a certification flaw (ATR-42...Europe, then "allegedly
hidden" or "forgotten" information leading to the Roselawn tragedy) or deregulation creating a need to quickly rubber-stamp aircraft operating manuals (Air Florida B-737), then even a huge. disjointed, over-bloated bureaucracy, in order to avoid smearing the White House image, goes into its standard, well-rehearsed, self-protection mode.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 30th Aug 2005 at 06:47.
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I have to say I am a little disappointed at the path this thread is taking. After many years in the industry retiring as an L1011 Flight Engineer, I was considered too old to be offered retraining, I still feel that some things haven't changed.
How much longer will it take before everyone involved in commercial flying realises that it is a TEAM GAME.
Pilots cannot fly for long without maintenance, likewise, maintenance wouldn't have machines to maintain without pilots to fly them.
I am not advocating that we all become one happy family, there should however be more support and understanding of each others needs. If the engineers are concerned about standards, pilots should be there immediately to support them. It would add so much more strength to the argument and it is after all in the pilots interest as well.
In saying that engineers should be a little more responsible too.
The nothing changes or I'm all right jack posters........why do you bother to post?
The grass may well be green where you are but are you 100% sure the grass is green everywhere?
I have always believed in the following statement:
"THERE IS NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE"
If these stories from both concerned pilots and engineers are reaching the press then I believe there must something in it.
It would be in everybody's interest to work together and solve it.
Will it happen, probably not in my lifetime. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed my career and had the pleasure of working with some fantastic colleagues.
It is an extremely simple equation for airlines, where shall we begin to make cutbacks?
Pilots....not on your life
Maintenance..in comparison you are an easy touch.
How much longer will it take before everyone involved in commercial flying realises that it is a TEAM GAME.
Pilots cannot fly for long without maintenance, likewise, maintenance wouldn't have machines to maintain without pilots to fly them.
I am not advocating that we all become one happy family, there should however be more support and understanding of each others needs. If the engineers are concerned about standards, pilots should be there immediately to support them. It would add so much more strength to the argument and it is after all in the pilots interest as well.
In saying that engineers should be a little more responsible too.
The nothing changes or I'm all right jack posters........why do you bother to post?
The grass may well be green where you are but are you 100% sure the grass is green everywhere?
I have always believed in the following statement:
"THERE IS NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE"
If these stories from both concerned pilots and engineers are reaching the press then I believe there must something in it.
It would be in everybody's interest to work together and solve it.
Will it happen, probably not in my lifetime. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed my career and had the pleasure of working with some fantastic colleagues.
It is an extremely simple equation for airlines, where shall we begin to make cutbacks?
Pilots....not on your life
Maintenance..in comparison you are an easy touch.
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A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), the UK's independent aviation regulator, said that he had seen no evidence of any UK airlines cutting corners on maintenance or safety.
There in lies the problem, unless you can prove it, the CAA are not interested, why, there's no money in it for them. How do you prove it, go to the CAA, oh well time to look for a new job.
Until such time as engineers have a powereful body to represent it, (like BALPA for the pilots) nothing will ever happen. I am a lifetime member of the ALAE, but they are just not powerful enough. Why? too much apathy within engineers as a whole. You hear all the bitching and moaning on numerous forums, but nothing will ever happen until there is unity.
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I think that the CAA has been reduced to a series of local EASA offices (although known officially as the Competent Authority). EASA thinks the UK CAA has, in the past, over-regulated.
I suspect regulators do not look too hard anymore but are deluding themselves if they think problems do not exist.
I suspect regulators do not look too hard anymore but are deluding themselves if they think problems do not exist.
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Well I guess everything depends on competence of people with, you would expect, same goals:
"To transfer you from point A to point B in a safe manner, preferrably not too expensive and by following a specific set of rules."
It seems like a common goal for everyone involved and yet it spins out of control.
I guess that teamwork is just a simple necessity and it needs more.
Too bad it is so complicate (manufaturers, regulatory bodies, airlines) that it is in my opinion as good as it is, with so many obstacles.
We can complain, talk, ask, yell but apparently politics and money are the ruling thing.
Establishment of any form does not use commercial means of transportation anyway and I assume that Globals, BBJs, Gulfstreams, Falcons and Hawkers are well maintained, manufactured to its most, safe and properly guided with their VIP status in the sky as well as on ground.
So in order to improve our situation we all have to get rich and powerfull, right?
"To transfer you from point A to point B in a safe manner, preferrably not too expensive and by following a specific set of rules."
It seems like a common goal for everyone involved and yet it spins out of control.
I guess that teamwork is just a simple necessity and it needs more.
Too bad it is so complicate (manufaturers, regulatory bodies, airlines) that it is in my opinion as good as it is, with so many obstacles.
We can complain, talk, ask, yell but apparently politics and money are the ruling thing.
Establishment of any form does not use commercial means of transportation anyway and I assume that Globals, BBJs, Gulfstreams, Falcons and Hawkers are well maintained, manufactured to its most, safe and properly guided with their VIP status in the sky as well as on ground.
So in order to improve our situation we all have to get rich and powerfull, right?
Last edited by Grunf; 30th Aug 2005 at 20:19.
