GO to quit DUB??
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http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/fin...1214/fin14.htm
Aer Rianta will ask the Competition Authority to investigate alleged anticompetitive behaviour by Ryanair following the withdrawal of Go from routes between Ireland and Scotland.
Aer Rianta will ask the Competition Authority to investigate alleged anticompetitive behaviour by Ryanair following the withdrawal of Go from routes between Ireland and Scotland.
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Well I for one will miss flying into DUB, some of the most relaxed ATC in Europe!
"Any speed?"
"No, just stop by the end of the runway..."
But as been pointed out, neither Go nor Ryanair are charities. Whether you want to call it a Ryanair "victory" or "sharp practice" or whatever, the important thing is:
1) Go realising they couldn't continue to compete head to head with FR
2) DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT! And quickly!
3) Moving into EMA - a new huge and relatively untapped market with great potential (see (Go announces East Midlands as next base)
To my mind this is one of the great strengths of the low-cost environment - the ability to move, and move QUICKLY to rapidly changing market conditions.
"Any speed?"
"No, just stop by the end of the runway..."
But as been pointed out, neither Go nor Ryanair are charities. Whether you want to call it a Ryanair "victory" or "sharp practice" or whatever, the important thing is:
1) Go realising they couldn't continue to compete head to head with FR
2) DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT! And quickly!
3) Moving into EMA - a new huge and relatively untapped market with great potential (see (Go announces East Midlands as next base)
To my mind this is one of the great strengths of the low-cost environment - the ability to move, and move QUICKLY to rapidly changing market conditions.
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The low cost airports - such as PIK - seem to be doing very well, thank you! (PIK has the highest passenger growth in percentage terms of any UK airport). It's the likes of BAA that are seen as overcharging and greedy - the reason Go's CEO has given for their pullout from the Dublin routes.
From yesterday's Business am:
by James Ashton
Last update: 09:14, Dec 13, 2001
GO, the lowcosrt airline, is to make East Midlands its third international base - snubbing both Glasgow and Edinburgh airports.
The carrier – which is also to scrap its Dublin to Glasgow and Edinburgh services – claimed landing charges in Scotland were too expensive.
Go chief executive Barbara Cassani said: "BAA"s high landing charges at Edinburgh and Glasgow are not competitive when it comes to developing new international
low-cost routes."
Meanwhile, the decline in passengers passing through the UK's major airports is slowing with low-cost airlines continuing to shine, new figures from BAA have revealed.
The airports operator said 8.1 million passengers passed through its seven UK locations in November, 10.6% down on the same month a year ago.
This is a slight improvement on October's figures when BAA's airports, which include Heathrow and Gatwick, saw a year-on-year fall
of 12%. BAA said Edinburgh, Glasgow and Stansted were again the best performers in November, fuelled by the success of budget
airlines. Passengers volumes at Stansted were up 7.2%, with growth of 8.2% in Edinburgh and 3.3% at Glasgow.
Heathrow and Gatwick continued to be the worst affected by the impact of the September 11 terrorist attacks.
BAA's remaining two regional airports, Aberdeen and Southampton, saw passenger numbers fall 2.9% and 4.3% respectively last month.
The number of passengers passing through Heathrow airport was down 13.5% at 4.3 million, while Gatwick saw a fall of 19.8% to 1.6 million. North Atlantic traffic was off 26.1% although BAA said these routes were “showing signs of improvement”.
The fall in October was 31.3%. Other long haul traffic fell 12.7% in November. BAA said the later school half-term break this year had helped November's total passenger numbers.
It added, however, last year's figures for the month were helped by people choosing to fly domestic air routes due to the chaos on the railways. UK domestic traffic last month was 7.9% lower year-on-year.[/quote]
From yesterday's Business am:
Go snubs Scottish airports to set up third base in Midlands
Last update: 09:14, Dec 13, 2001
GO, the lowcosrt airline, is to make East Midlands its third international base - snubbing both Glasgow and Edinburgh airports.
The carrier – which is also to scrap its Dublin to Glasgow and Edinburgh services – claimed landing charges in Scotland were too expensive.
Go chief executive Barbara Cassani said: "BAA"s high landing charges at Edinburgh and Glasgow are not competitive when it comes to developing new international
low-cost routes."
Meanwhile, the decline in passengers passing through the UK's major airports is slowing with low-cost airlines continuing to shine, new figures from BAA have revealed.
The airports operator said 8.1 million passengers passed through its seven UK locations in November, 10.6% down on the same month a year ago.
This is a slight improvement on October's figures when BAA's airports, which include Heathrow and Gatwick, saw a year-on-year fall
of 12%. BAA said Edinburgh, Glasgow and Stansted were again the best performers in November, fuelled by the success of budget
airlines. Passengers volumes at Stansted were up 7.2%, with growth of 8.2% in Edinburgh and 3.3% at Glasgow.
Heathrow and Gatwick continued to be the worst affected by the impact of the September 11 terrorist attacks.
BAA's remaining two regional airports, Aberdeen and Southampton, saw passenger numbers fall 2.9% and 4.3% respectively last month.
The number of passengers passing through Heathrow airport was down 13.5% at 4.3 million, while Gatwick saw a fall of 19.8% to 1.6 million. North Atlantic traffic was off 26.1% although BAA said these routes were “showing signs of improvement”.
The fall in October was 31.3%. Other long haul traffic fell 12.7% in November. BAA said the later school half-term break this year had helped November's total passenger numbers.
It added, however, last year's figures for the month were helped by people choosing to fly domestic air routes due to the chaos on the railways. UK domestic traffic last month was 7.9% lower year-on-year.[/quote]
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Guv
What Babs says about the reason for pulling out of the EDI and GLA to DUB route and the actual reason are two different things.
Note the following and think before you reply:
GO knew the costs before they started operating the routes. If the costs have changed since setting up the routes that is bad planning on their part. Fix you costs to affset the risks!
GO would have done their projections on load factor and yield before starting the route. If these have not been achieved that is bad forecasting, or see next paragraph.
FR moved in to counter GO to DUB with agressive frequecy and especially price.
GO could have implemented EMA in different without sacrificing the Dublin roues if they were living up to expectations.
Possible Conclusions
GO cocked up their forecasts/costs.
FR have diluted the yield/load factor making the roues unprofitable. Would Babs ever admit to being squeezed off the route by Ryanair.
Remember, the problems with EI should have improved the earnings potential as they have trimmed their schedule in the past months.
You cannot blame the BAA costs for pulling off the route. GO especially know the BAA cost structure as they operate from both EDI and GLA to STN, BRS and BFS already and from STN to all over the place.
I would not argue that BAA costs may be the reason for setting up at EMA, but to blame this for the DUB withdrawal is expedient and cannot be true.
Perhaps your name should be Naive Robertson
Hugo
What Babs says about the reason for pulling out of the EDI and GLA to DUB route and the actual reason are two different things.
Note the following and think before you reply:
GO knew the costs before they started operating the routes. If the costs have changed since setting up the routes that is bad planning on their part. Fix you costs to affset the risks!
GO would have done their projections on load factor and yield before starting the route. If these have not been achieved that is bad forecasting, or see next paragraph.
FR moved in to counter GO to DUB with agressive frequecy and especially price.
GO could have implemented EMA in different without sacrificing the Dublin roues if they were living up to expectations.
Possible Conclusions
GO cocked up their forecasts/costs.
FR have diluted the yield/load factor making the roues unprofitable. Would Babs ever admit to being squeezed off the route by Ryanair.
Remember, the problems with EI should have improved the earnings potential as they have trimmed their schedule in the past months.
You cannot blame the BAA costs for pulling off the route. GO especially know the BAA cost structure as they operate from both EDI and GLA to STN, BRS and BFS already and from STN to all over the place.
I would not argue that BAA costs may be the reason for setting up at EMA, but to blame this for the DUB withdrawal is expedient and cannot be true.
Perhaps your name should be Naive Robertson
Hugo
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Hugo
You make some good points. I remember posting when go started promoting the routes, that it was difficult to understand their strategy. One thing that has become clear with the low cost carriers is generally they can create a market when they offer a new service. But to enter a market in direct competition with the oldest and wisest (?) low cost airline in Europe (ie GLA-DUB vs PIK-DUB) and start EDI-DUB, seemed optimistic to say the least. Once Ryanair announced that they were going to start operating why did go continue? In the press they started berating Ryanair and saying that they were offering consumer choice, fair enough, but don't do it at a loss - which is what go have admitted they were and are doing.
You mention forecasts, I would guess that in fact their traffic has been as good as they expected (anyone confirm?) but the yield will possibly have been below expectation - but again that's not surprising when you pitch yourself at the past masters.
I'm not condoning Ryanair's reaction to go's services, but I think it was naievity in the extreme of go to start operating into their backyard. They have been slow to pull out and even now are waiting another 3 months before withdrawing.
If BRS is working well for go, then EMA is likely to be a winner too. The question is how many more mini-low cost hubs can be created in the UK before the market is saturated. Or will any downsizing at BA/BD encourage the low cost carriers to start more services?
You make some good points. I remember posting when go started promoting the routes, that it was difficult to understand their strategy. One thing that has become clear with the low cost carriers is generally they can create a market when they offer a new service. But to enter a market in direct competition with the oldest and wisest (?) low cost airline in Europe (ie GLA-DUB vs PIK-DUB) and start EDI-DUB, seemed optimistic to say the least. Once Ryanair announced that they were going to start operating why did go continue? In the press they started berating Ryanair and saying that they were offering consumer choice, fair enough, but don't do it at a loss - which is what go have admitted they were and are doing.
You mention forecasts, I would guess that in fact their traffic has been as good as they expected (anyone confirm?) but the yield will possibly have been below expectation - but again that's not surprising when you pitch yourself at the past masters.
I'm not condoning Ryanair's reaction to go's services, but I think it was naievity in the extreme of go to start operating into their backyard. They have been slow to pull out and even now are waiting another 3 months before withdrawing.
If BRS is working well for go, then EMA is likely to be a winner too. The question is how many more mini-low cost hubs can be created in the UK before the market is saturated. Or will any downsizing at BA/BD encourage the low cost carriers to start more services?
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Hugo Z - all well and good apart from the fact that I know what FR are paying at PIK and I know what Go are paying at GLA.
Let me make it real easy - FR operate out of PIK, which costs them pennies per pax. They hammered Go's ass, as the Yanks would say.
Go operates out of GLA and pays a factor of 8 per passenger that FR pays at PIK. Other costs (aircraft, crews etc) would be broadly similar.
By using BAA's GLA, Go is operating at a clear financial disadvantage when compared to FR. This obviously is not the case with EDI, where both airlines are forced to endure the BAA's rip-off charges.
Kenny MacAskill, the SNP's new shadow Minister of Transport, has been actively engaged in trying to get the costs of operating through both HIA airports (now there's a rip-off!
)and the BAA airports in Scotland (EDI, GLA and ABZ). Of course, a major part of the cost component is attributable to the high cost of handling as well.
Let me make it real easy - FR operate out of PIK, which costs them pennies per pax. They hammered Go's ass, as the Yanks would say.
Go operates out of GLA and pays a factor of 8 per passenger that FR pays at PIK. Other costs (aircraft, crews etc) would be broadly similar.
By using BAA's GLA, Go is operating at a clear financial disadvantage when compared to FR. This obviously is not the case with EDI, where both airlines are forced to endure the BAA's rip-off charges.
Kenny MacAskill, the SNP's new shadow Minister of Transport, has been actively engaged in trying to get the costs of operating through both HIA airports (now there's a rip-off!
)and the BAA airports in Scotland (EDI, GLA and ABZ). Of course, a major part of the cost component is attributable to the high cost of handling as well.
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Guvnor
So if the costs are so high at GLA - why did go start operating. If you're costs are so high to start with and you're competing with the past masters of low fares how do you expect to make a quick (or ever) profit.
As for the level of fees at the Scottish airports - what's the solution nationalise them so they don't make a profit, but the Scottish public will subsidise it through taxes or leave it to the market?
So if the costs are so high at GLA - why did go start operating. If you're costs are so high to start with and you're competing with the past masters of low fares how do you expect to make a quick (or ever) profit.
As for the level of fees at the Scottish airports - what's the solution nationalise them so they don't make a profit, but the Scottish public will subsidise it through taxes or leave it to the market?
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ElNino:
Just shut up and go home!! I am a regular FR customer and use them for all air travel I do (about 20 flights per year) and have flown on Dublin-Scotland routes. All I can say to you is that the service has always been spot on. Regarding the price guarantee, I think you'll find that FR flight times don't differ massively from Go's.
In the 16 years of operation FR lost IR£ 20,000,000 from 1985 - 1991. Last year alone, Go lost £70,000,000 - just get your facts straight will you!
_____________________________________________
Yes FR fly from PIK for next to nothing but also got a discounted deal from the BAA for EDI, which Go does not have. They wouldn't have started the route without this discount.
Go were incredibly naive trying to enter Ryanair's home turf and got what they deserved.
Just shut up and go home!! I am a regular FR customer and use them for all air travel I do (about 20 flights per year) and have flown on Dublin-Scotland routes. All I can say to you is that the service has always been spot on. Regarding the price guarantee, I think you'll find that FR flight times don't differ massively from Go's.
In the 16 years of operation FR lost IR£ 20,000,000 from 1985 - 1991. Last year alone, Go lost £70,000,000 - just get your facts straight will you!
_____________________________________________
Yes FR fly from PIK for next to nothing but also got a discounted deal from the BAA for EDI, which Go does not have. They wouldn't have started the route without this discount.
Go were incredibly naive trying to enter Ryanair's home turf and got what they deserved.
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FlyingIrishman
Sure ...not a charity fine...ok.....competition....alright good....
As I said MOL doesn't give a tinker's curse about tourism, or even his own employees (at every level not just the pilots). Ask the cabin crew about their pay cut and having to pay for uniforms etc etc....I could go on ad nauseum but I'd just be repeating what has been done to death here. Now tourism MOL I'm quite sure doesn't even understand, the only thing which rocks his boat is YIELD!. That's fine ...no problem with that except some of the "losers" as you say might have also been able to deliver "tourists" if they were allowed to unhindered by restrictive practices. I think you'll find that this is not quite the end of the matter as it is now being investigated asI understand.
I don't think you have quite grasped what people are telling you on this topic. Nobody has ownership rights of profits "his profits". As to what GO might or mightn't have done after their promotion is just mere conjecture. It is normal practice to have a promotion for new routes. Flying for free is a bit of a gimmick but good for headlines and great if you get a ticket. Don't expext too much in return though. I think you'll find FR pricey enough in April on that route now that Go are exiting. As you said yourself "O'Leary is a profit orientated businessman". You don't make profits giving free tickets away. You will lose out as a result of less choice in the market....I think that is what you need to understand.
1. O'Leary is a profit orientated businessman that knows how to handle competition. He is not running a charity and can't afford to either! He is interested in Irish tourism but on the terms that he can deliver tourists because none of the other losers are able to.
As I said MOL doesn't give a tinker's curse about tourism, or even his own employees (at every level not just the pilots). Ask the cabin crew about their pay cut and having to pay for uniforms etc etc....I could go on ad nauseum but I'd just be repeating what has been done to death here. Now tourism MOL I'm quite sure doesn't even understand, the only thing which rocks his boat is YIELD!. That's fine ...no problem with that except some of the "losers" as you say might have also been able to deliver "tourists" if they were allowed to unhindered by restrictive practices. I think you'll find that this is not quite the end of the matter as it is now being investigated asI understand.
2. You didn't really expect him to quietly sit back and watch Go eat into what are now his profits. And anyway, supposing FR hadn't entered the EDI market what do you think Go would have done after their promotional offers? Not flying people for free!!!
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No I haven't been drinking and I'm not really an "angry chappie" as you put it but it winds me up how everyone keeps slagging off FR when they have just demonstrated what competition is all about
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Its no wonder FR get a constant slagging with people like theflyingirishman waving their flag.
He is in lala land suggesting Go lost 70 million quid last year. they made a profit!
He is a tosser!
He is in lala land suggesting Go lost 70 million quid last year. they made a profit!
He is a tosser!
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Me thinks that the Flyin oirishman should get himself a pilots licence in Prague and send his fifty quid into Ryanair and apply for a job there, unless as it sounds, he already is a pilot at FR!
Only an employee of FR could be so supportive of MOL and the airline he has created.
Pay for uniform, clean the planes, taxi at 50kts, 15 second walkarounds, bring your own lunch, 6 or more sector days, cancel Ryanair Xmas party cos it costs too much, clean airplanes again go home get up and do it again for the next five days. I dreamed of doing all the above when I romantically looked at the PanAm 747's sitting at their respective gates.
Now MOLs crews have brought aviation to a level where it is no wonder that crews are not respected. Whats the point at working someplace like FR? I can see the point in flying FR but working for them!!!!
Anyway, I digress. Flying Oirishman likes FR and more power to him. I really think that he outta get that Prague pilots licence and go work dere with dose FR peeple seeing as he likes dem so much!
Only an employee of FR could be so supportive of MOL and the airline he has created.
Pay for uniform, clean the planes, taxi at 50kts, 15 second walkarounds, bring your own lunch, 6 or more sector days, cancel Ryanair Xmas party cos it costs too much, clean airplanes again go home get up and do it again for the next five days. I dreamed of doing all the above when I romantically looked at the PanAm 747's sitting at their respective gates.
Now MOLs crews have brought aviation to a level where it is no wonder that crews are not respected. Whats the point at working someplace like FR? I can see the point in flying FR but working for them!!!!
Anyway, I digress. Flying Oirishman likes FR and more power to him. I really think that he outta get that Prague pilots licence and go work dere with dose FR peeple seeing as he likes dem so much!
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I would just like to say that this is a free world and as such everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I won't say any more about the subject apart from congratulate FR for a well deserved victory and a future of low fares throughout Europe.
Any Go staff that will be looking for a job in a couple of years when Go will have gone bust, you'd jump at the chance of working for FR, just remember my words and time will tell.
Any Go staff that will be looking for a job in a couple of years when Go will have gone bust, you'd jump at the chance of working for FR, just remember my words and time will tell.
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Lets see Flyin Oirishman..... I came across an FR before start landing parking driving home checklist:
Its a challenge and response but can be completed by the pilot who is either awake, not busy putting out a fire, tearing out log pages or applying for other jobs:
"Sweeping brush" "check"
"Dust pan" "check"
"Stay awake pills" "check"
"Extra strength haemoride cream" "check"
"Mothers bank card" "check"
"Jam sandwiches" "check"
"Pint of milk" "check"
"MOL is the best cassette" "check"
"I will fly for food sign" "check"
"MEL and CDL items" "discarded"
"Brakes" "not installed"
"Passengers" "sitting and standing"
"Self esteem" "not required"
"Cranky haughty FAs" "hired"
"Licence" "applied for"
"Walkaround" "aircraft got here"
"Before having the blessed opportunity to work with such a fine carrier and will gladly do whatever I can to help MOL amass as much money as he possibly can without and due regard for me or any other employee checklist complete"
Its a challenge and response but can be completed by the pilot who is either awake, not busy putting out a fire, tearing out log pages or applying for other jobs:
"Sweeping brush" "check"
"Dust pan" "check"
"Stay awake pills" "check"
"Extra strength haemoride cream" "check"
"Mothers bank card" "check"
"Jam sandwiches" "check"
"Pint of milk" "check"
"MOL is the best cassette" "check"
"I will fly for food sign" "check"
"MEL and CDL items" "discarded"
"Brakes" "not installed"
"Passengers" "sitting and standing"
"Self esteem" "not required"
"Cranky haughty FAs" "hired"
"Licence" "applied for"
"Walkaround" "aircraft got here"
"Before having the blessed opportunity to work with such a fine carrier and will gladly do whatever I can to help MOL amass as much money as he possibly can without and due regard for me or any other employee checklist complete"
