YOW rejected takeoff
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,795
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From: New South Wales
Honestly, I think you lot need to get some perspective and deal with your siege mentality vis a vis the press. This was a perfectly reasonable article. Some of the comments on pprune about press articles are frankly unbelievable.
Of course the press is interested in aviation incidents, because when something goes wrong it is very graphic and very public and the newspaper readership is interested. It sells papers. This is the world we live in. Deal with it and shed the pompous, superior attitude when journalists make a minor mistake or write about an incident in a manner you don't particularly favour.
This is what having a free press is about.
QDM
Of course the press is interested in aviation incidents, because when something goes wrong it is very graphic and very public and the newspaper readership is interested. It sells papers. This is the world we live in. Deal with it and shed the pompous, superior attitude when journalists make a minor mistake or write about an incident in a manner you don't particularly favour.
This is what having a free press is about.
QDM
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,025
Likes: 1
From: The Global village
If you feel that some of the press reporters deserve a little more respect from the aviation community, QDMQDMQDM, perhaps you might gain it, if some of the "dedicated aviation experts" made themselves somewhat more familiar with airline aircraft ops.
Most of us are only TOO happy to give you some time, gratis, in explaining some of the stuff.
Occasionally the sensationalism incorporated into aviation incidents DOES make the journo look pretty amateurish in the eyes of professional crews, who are trying hard to maintain a safe standard, and to retain the trust of the people who entrust themselves and their loves ones to us on what we hope will be a safe and pleasant experience for them.
Likewise, many of us are sick and tired of being reminded by our superiors, that our job requires no more skill than a 'bus or train driver, and that we should be rewarded and rostered similarly.
If you feel that this is a "pompous, superior attitude", then so be it - however I can assure you it is not.
We're probably all just a little "battle weary" from the continued snipes.
Cheers.
And last, but by no means least, "Well done" gentlemen, on executing a successful rto!
(I'm certain you expected no less of yourselves.)
Most of us are only TOO happy to give you some time, gratis, in explaining some of the stuff.
Occasionally the sensationalism incorporated into aviation incidents DOES make the journo look pretty amateurish in the eyes of professional crews, who are trying hard to maintain a safe standard, and to retain the trust of the people who entrust themselves and their loves ones to us on what we hope will be a safe and pleasant experience for them.
Likewise, many of us are sick and tired of being reminded by our superiors, that our job requires no more skill than a 'bus or train driver, and that we should be rewarded and rostered similarly.
If you feel that this is a "pompous, superior attitude", then so be it - however I can assure you it is not.
We're probably all just a little "battle weary" from the continued snipes.
Cheers.
And last, but by no means least, "Well done" gentlemen, on executing a successful rto!
(I'm certain you expected no less of yourselves.)
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 763
Likes: 1
From: Monrovia / Liberia
The whole point of the pilots doing the pre-departure performance calculation is so that they can be certain that the weight of the aircraft is such that – given the Takeoff Distance Available (TODA) and the Accelerate / Stop Distance Available (ASDA) - it can be accelerated to a certain speed (v1) and if needs be, at that speed, subsequently stopped in what runway remains (which might see the aircraft entering the 'stopway', but that will see it come to a stop on the paved surface, be that surface the runway or stopway).
Likewise, v1 provides for the aircraft suffering an engine failure at that speed and, if the decision is made to continue the take-off (nearly always the safest thing to do – and you'll see why in a minute), the aircraft still has enough thrust to continue to accelerate to Vr, become airborne, and achieve the screen height (30' dry runway / 15' wet runway) by the end of the TODA.
On a limiting runway, beyond the performance calculation, the variable factor is the technique the pilots use to stop the aircraft, i.e. if the pilots do not execute correct technique, during a Rejected Take Off (RTO), then the aircraft will go off the end of the runway. The correct technique for stop from v1 is:
On a wet runway use of reverse is factored into the performance calculation and failure to use reverse following a RTO, actioned at v1, will see the aircraft run off the end of the runway / stopway.
Any other variations in the pilots RTO technique (e.g. not selecting speed brakes and / or not using maximum braking, etc.) will likewise see the aircraft run off the end of the runway / stopway.
Needless to say, it is the application of correct technique that pilots practice in the simulator - and it also happens to be part of how the regulatory authorities ascertain that a simulator behaves as the aircraft would prior to approving its use for flight crew training.
If in any doubt about this, have a read of Boeing's Flight Crew Training Manual (wherein I'm certain that Airbus's will read just the same on this topic as it's all governed by the same rules).
For those who might think otherwise, aircraft performance is neither arbitary or guesswork.
Kaptin M - Well said !!!
Likewise, v1 provides for the aircraft suffering an engine failure at that speed and, if the decision is made to continue the take-off (nearly always the safest thing to do – and you'll see why in a minute), the aircraft still has enough thrust to continue to accelerate to Vr, become airborne, and achieve the screen height (30' dry runway / 15' wet runway) by the end of the TODA.
On a limiting runway, beyond the performance calculation, the variable factor is the technique the pilots use to stop the aircraft, i.e. if the pilots do not execute correct technique, during a Rejected Take Off (RTO), then the aircraft will go off the end of the runway. The correct technique for stop from v1 is:
- Aggressively close the thrust levers & simultaneously apply maximum braking.
- Pull the speed brake lever.
- Select maximum reverse thrust.
On a wet runway use of reverse is factored into the performance calculation and failure to use reverse following a RTO, actioned at v1, will see the aircraft run off the end of the runway / stopway.
Any other variations in the pilots RTO technique (e.g. not selecting speed brakes and / or not using maximum braking, etc.) will likewise see the aircraft run off the end of the runway / stopway.
Needless to say, it is the application of correct technique that pilots practice in the simulator - and it also happens to be part of how the regulatory authorities ascertain that a simulator behaves as the aircraft would prior to approving its use for flight crew training.
If in any doubt about this, have a read of Boeing's Flight Crew Training Manual (wherein I'm certain that Airbus's will read just the same on this topic as it's all governed by the same rules).
For those who might think otherwise, aircraft performance is neither arbitary or guesswork.
Kaptin M - Well said !!!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 84
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From: HK
Likewise, v1 provides for the aircraft suffering an engine failure at that speed...
For a reject at V1 the engine must have failed before V1 to allow time for the recognition of the failure and time for the reaction to the failure (ie thrust levers to full reverse, full initiation of braking and spoilers etc....). Apologies in advance if I'm wrong as I'm not an airline pilot yet but am just recalling knowledge from ATPL theory.
Kaptin M - good post mate.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 763
Likes: 1
From: Monrovia / Liberia
Built into the takeoff performance planning data ( aka the Airfield Analysis ) there's an allowance as follows (depending under which regulatory authority ones opperating) for recognition of a problem that would require an RTO and for the instigation of the said same RTO:
- FAR - 1 second.
- JAR - 2 seconds ( 1" for recognition that there's a problem, and a further 1" for instigation of the RTO)
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,044
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From: UK
OKC....
You state:
The correct technique for stop from v1 is:
Aggressively close the thrust levers & simultaneously apply maximum braking.
Pull the speed brake lever.
Select maximum reverse thrust.
Might be on your type, but be careful saying it is "the correct technique". For instance on the type this thread relates to, these are not the pilot's "memory actions"...
NoD
You state:
The correct technique for stop from v1 is:
Aggressively close the thrust levers & simultaneously apply maximum braking.
Pull the speed brake lever.
Select maximum reverse thrust.
Might be on your type, but be careful saying it is "the correct technique". For instance on the type this thread relates to, these are not the pilot's "memory actions"...
NoD
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,795
Likes: 0
From: New South Wales
If you feel that some of the press reporters deserve a little more respect from the aviation community, QDMQDMQDM, perhaps you might gain it, if some of the "dedicated aviation experts" made themselves somewhat more familiar with airline aircraft ops.
I am a doctor and PPL, not a journalist and my profession gets subject to inaccurate reporting and sensationalism frequently in the press too. My point is simply that many of the reactions to the press on pprune are completely over the top and this is a case in point: it isn't a great article, but it's not exactly terrible.
When something is completely wrong, then fair enough, point it out, but being a prima donna about this stuff is wearisome.
Some people need to chill. And maybe take a pill. I know some good ones.
QDM
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,025
Likes: 1
From: The Global village
As am amateur (non-practising) ND and iridologist, I think I can see where you're coming from, QDMQDMQDM.
Maybe just some Jasmine tea, or a rub with comfrey will help, instead of the pills.
Maybe just some Jasmine tea, or a rub with comfrey will help, instead of the pills.
