BA considers quitting shorthaul-BBC
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 21
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From: Around
I would kill for any of your jobs! I can't believe what I'm reading on this forum, especially in these times.
If I ever get to the point where I'm complaining about flying planes for a living I will just remember back to what I'm doing now...not flying!!!
I know working conditions aren't exactly ideal, but common guys and girls, when all is said and done you are doing what you love. If not, quit complaining and find something else to do. That way someone who really wants to fly, can.
If I ever get to the point where I'm complaining about flying planes for a living I will just remember back to what I'm doing now...not flying!!!
I know working conditions aren't exactly ideal, but common guys and girls, when all is said and done you are doing what you love. If not, quit complaining and find something else to do. That way someone who really wants to fly, can.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Aviattor
A lot of people at BA now are probably feeling that their work and work environment is being eroded away to a position where they would under a normal business climate have moved. At the moment they are fairly stuck with only a small amount of recruitment in other airlines going on and BA knows it. I feel agrieved about a lot of what BA has done to myself and others in the last 12 months. But just cos their situation may not be as bad as your own doesn't mean they can't complain about it okay.
A lot of people at BA now are probably feeling that their work and work environment is being eroded away to a position where they would under a normal business climate have moved. At the moment they are fairly stuck with only a small amount of recruitment in other airlines going on and BA knows it. I feel agrieved about a lot of what BA has done to myself and others in the last 12 months. But just cos their situation may not be as bad as your own doesn't mean they can't complain about it okay.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 64
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From: Below the line
SuperStall: good post, agree with your sentiments.
Skellan: What Tandemrotor has to say about BAR is entirely true.
To all those nigel bashers out there, a question. A huge percentage of BA DEP's have joined from other UK operators, charters, lowcost and scheduled, both from the LHS and RHS. Therefore a lot of you out there, deriding BA pilots, presumably flew with us in previous lives. And presumably at the time you thought we were OK blokes. So tell me, at what point exactly was it that we all became to$$ers. Was it the day we applied to BA, the day we joined or was it perhaps the day your application was rejected??
And in response to the "I would never want to join BA" brigade, I echo a previous posters comments: THEN DON'T. There are many operators that I would choose not to apply to but I don't feel the need to broadcast it the fact.
Regards to all
Skellan: What Tandemrotor has to say about BAR is entirely true.
To all those nigel bashers out there, a question. A huge percentage of BA DEP's have joined from other UK operators, charters, lowcost and scheduled, both from the LHS and RHS. Therefore a lot of you out there, deriding BA pilots, presumably flew with us in previous lives. And presumably at the time you thought we were OK blokes. So tell me, at what point exactly was it that we all became to$$ers. Was it the day we applied to BA, the day we joined or was it perhaps the day your application was rejected??
And in response to the "I would never want to join BA" brigade, I echo a previous posters comments: THEN DON'T. There are many operators that I would choose not to apply to but I don't feel the need to broadcast it the fact.
Regards to all
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59
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From: uk
Good post superStall.
As I read through many topics on this site, I am constantly amazed by attitudes of, all be it a few, fellow aviators. I read many posts, which although not saying it directly,
suggest a degree of gloating at the misfortune of others. The sort of people who after having a bad day and staggering out of the local pub, would give the homeless guy a good kicking 'to make themselves feel better'.
I don't know whether this is a result of life difficulties outside of the job but
instead of being thankfull for, in my view, having one of the best job's there is, they either constantly complain about how others have it better or get enjoyment from seeing others in trouble.
If you don't like the position you are in, try to do something about it, if you think the other company has crap conditions, then don't apply and may I suggest that for every person in a job you think is better, there are a 10000 who would like yours.
As I read through many topics on this site, I am constantly amazed by attitudes of, all be it a few, fellow aviators. I read many posts, which although not saying it directly,
suggest a degree of gloating at the misfortune of others. The sort of people who after having a bad day and staggering out of the local pub, would give the homeless guy a good kicking 'to make themselves feel better'.
I don't know whether this is a result of life difficulties outside of the job but
instead of being thankfull for, in my view, having one of the best job's there is, they either constantly complain about how others have it better or get enjoyment from seeing others in trouble.
If you don't like the position you are in, try to do something about it, if you think the other company has crap conditions, then don't apply and may I suggest that for every person in a job you think is better, there are a 10000 who would like yours.
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Nova
Peter Skellan
You clearly have an axe to grind. Perhaps even a chip on your shoulder. I will refrain from making the obvious comments regarding the origin of these feelings.
You clearly have a very limited grasp on the reality of actually working for BA. You say you wouldn't want to. I'm pleased. Imagine if a Nigel came out with comments like yours. The response would be deafening as people jumped on the band wagon to 'bash BA!'
Isn't it strange however, that BA recruits, at times in large numbers, from every other operator in the country. By The way, I joined with 2 people from Brittania. One a training Captain, who joined BA as an FO. Strange that isn't it!
BA may be planning to reduce their shorthaul operations, but if they do, it is emphatically nothing to do with Flight Deck costs. That is why so many nigels are sad, and a little angry to be losing a very attractive career path.
Incidentally, if you where actually IN BA, you wouldn't need to "spend your entire career bitching about LHR" you would just choose to work there. But then you're not, and you can't.
You clearly have an axe to grind. Perhaps even a chip on your shoulder. I will refrain from making the obvious comments regarding the origin of these feelings.
You clearly have a very limited grasp on the reality of actually working for BA. You say you wouldn't want to. I'm pleased. Imagine if a Nigel came out with comments like yours. The response would be deafening as people jumped on the band wagon to 'bash BA!'
Isn't it strange however, that BA recruits, at times in large numbers, from every other operator in the country. By The way, I joined with 2 people from Brittania. One a training Captain, who joined BA as an FO. Strange that isn't it!
BA may be planning to reduce their shorthaul operations, but if they do, it is emphatically nothing to do with Flight Deck costs. That is why so many nigels are sad, and a little angry to be losing a very attractive career path.
Incidentally, if you where actually IN BA, you wouldn't need to "spend your entire career bitching about LHR" you would just choose to work there. But then you're not, and you can't.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 50
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From: Hereford, UK
I'm not having a go at the BA flightcrew - my Dad's one of them.
All I am saying is that for the entire history of British aviation it has been a fact that BA was the best employer. This is no longer the case.
Which is a pretty stark thing and worthy of discussion.
As I implied earlier I don't want to join BA and couldn't afford the pay cut.
PS
All I am saying is that for the entire history of British aviation it has been a fact that BA was the best employer. This is no longer the case.
Which is a pretty stark thing and worthy of discussion.
As I implied earlier I don't want to join BA and couldn't afford the pay cut.
PS
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 32
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From: no idea
Amazon man,
You couldn't be further from the truth! I am certainly not a BA pilot and my reference to industrial action was merely a non too difficult prediction should there be any substance to the rumours earlier in the thread to which I was referring.
You couldn't be further from the truth! I am certainly not a BA pilot and my reference to industrial action was merely a non too difficult prediction should there be any substance to the rumours earlier in the thread to which I was referring.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 14
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From: England
I think what my Bral mates are trying to say is that we cannot believe the whole of the BA concept. Sure, we've envied some of your perks, but as someone else said, the mere fact that you guys can mention strike action in these days shows you are on a different planet!
We have nothing personal against you, but as anyone who speaks to our Company Council will confirm, you are trying to shaft us with your scope clauses. Did you learn NOTHING from all the talk, the promises, the sweet words you offered during the CFE takeover? Ask those guys how many of them would like to turn the clock back! BA f#cked a good company there, one with a similiar ethos to our own.
The point is that we didn't ask to be bought, but we couldn't prevent it. We are now watching our company ruined, we are deluged with new non productive management, and hey all of a sudden, we're losing money. Paperwork is created in a deluge of new routines and SOPs, a lot of which are then changed overnight as the BA overlord discovers this that or the other won't work, and just maybe we knew what we were doing before he started meddling, thankyou!
Let me guess, what comes next. BA loses pilots because it can't make a profit, (for whatever reason) and the next thing is BA guys flying with us - but on THEIR pay scale. Now, I'd like more money, but not if it means redundancy in a short while. BA have got to recognise it is better to make a profit with an full Emb or a 146 with our cost base, than to keep chucking money away on partially full (and full is not a word to use) 73, 75, or Airbi.
It may well be that the costbase is not all the fault of the pilots, but when I see MY job threatened, don't expect me to vote for a cheeseboard for some complacent BA driver!
We have nothing personal against you, but as anyone who speaks to our Company Council will confirm, you are trying to shaft us with your scope clauses. Did you learn NOTHING from all the talk, the promises, the sweet words you offered during the CFE takeover? Ask those guys how many of them would like to turn the clock back! BA f#cked a good company there, one with a similiar ethos to our own.
The point is that we didn't ask to be bought, but we couldn't prevent it. We are now watching our company ruined, we are deluged with new non productive management, and hey all of a sudden, we're losing money. Paperwork is created in a deluge of new routines and SOPs, a lot of which are then changed overnight as the BA overlord discovers this that or the other won't work, and just maybe we knew what we were doing before he started meddling, thankyou!
Let me guess, what comes next. BA loses pilots because it can't make a profit, (for whatever reason) and the next thing is BA guys flying with us - but on THEIR pay scale. Now, I'd like more money, but not if it means redundancy in a short while. BA have got to recognise it is better to make a profit with an full Emb or a 146 with our cost base, than to keep chucking money away on partially full (and full is not a word to use) 73, 75, or Airbi.
It may well be that the costbase is not all the fault of the pilots, but when I see MY job threatened, don't expect me to vote for a cheeseboard for some complacent BA driver!
Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 122
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From: Silly Cone Valley
Any career in aviation requires an enormous amount of committed hard work, emotional investment, and considerable personal sacrifice. For those who join BA it is most likely because at the time of applying, a career with Nigel was seen as a personal pinnacle of achievement.
To have that dream destroyed in front of your eyes by cynical and inured Harvard Hardmen, who value your hard won qualifications no more than an HGV, is stingingly painful. They see our demise as some kind of great victory and get some kind of perverted gratification to see us on the back foot finally.
I face the possibility that my job will simply cease to exist and will presumably face summary dismissal because ‘September 11’ has somehow given them an opportunity to tear up all our agreements, and drive a coach and horses through past protocols. All against a background in which industrial action would be politically impossible.
I could believe they engineered the whole tragic episode themselves. There’s no sorrow, only gloating in the corporate palaces of Big Airways. ‘A unique opportunity’ is how our people have referred this to.
The Future Size and Shape Committee is likely to require 300 pilot redundancies I have heard from one senior source, and judging by the way they are currently emptying out one fleet of BA, they do not intend to operate LIFO. Why should they? Cheaper just to sack the pilots left on that fleet at the bitter end, why spend any money on retraining then for other aircraft, we don’t give a toss about them, do we? I imagine the other recommendation of the committee will be a desperate requirement for another 8000 managers.
I have never felt so undervalued, isolated, and betrayed by anything in my life. I feel physically sick. Everyday, I see greying Captains retiring after a rewarding and lucrative career saying 'Glad I'm going now!'. I remember on my joining day when one of the many people to address us said ‘Remember how you feel today, remember your sense of achievement, because you won’t always feel like this.’ How prescient he was.
That’s why Nigel is pi$$ed off.
To have that dream destroyed in front of your eyes by cynical and inured Harvard Hardmen, who value your hard won qualifications no more than an HGV, is stingingly painful. They see our demise as some kind of great victory and get some kind of perverted gratification to see us on the back foot finally.
I face the possibility that my job will simply cease to exist and will presumably face summary dismissal because ‘September 11’ has somehow given them an opportunity to tear up all our agreements, and drive a coach and horses through past protocols. All against a background in which industrial action would be politically impossible.
I could believe they engineered the whole tragic episode themselves. There’s no sorrow, only gloating in the corporate palaces of Big Airways. ‘A unique opportunity’ is how our people have referred this to.
The Future Size and Shape Committee is likely to require 300 pilot redundancies I have heard from one senior source, and judging by the way they are currently emptying out one fleet of BA, they do not intend to operate LIFO. Why should they? Cheaper just to sack the pilots left on that fleet at the bitter end, why spend any money on retraining then for other aircraft, we don’t give a toss about them, do we? I imagine the other recommendation of the committee will be a desperate requirement for another 8000 managers.
I have never felt so undervalued, isolated, and betrayed by anything in my life. I feel physically sick. Everyday, I see greying Captains retiring after a rewarding and lucrative career saying 'Glad I'm going now!'. I remember on my joining day when one of the many people to address us said ‘Remember how you feel today, remember your sense of achievement, because you won’t always feel like this.’ How prescient he was.
That’s why Nigel is pi$$ed off.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 17
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From: Ireland
I sympathise with both sides here. I too can see clearly how ridiculous and expensive some of our new procedures are. Clearly, I can't help but notice that we are now a lossmaking enterprise in the great tradition of BA.
On the other hand, why should BA throw away hard earned privileges and remunerations. The answer lies with management boys. It'll never happen of course, but if we could cut out even 50% of the dead wood in waterworks, we'd save a fortune, and I bet no-one would even notice they'd gone!
In the meantime, lets work together. Maybe if the BALPA CCs could actually work together instead of confronting each other, we'd come up with a sensible compromise. I shan't hold my breath!
[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: Nosferatu ]</p>
On the other hand, why should BA throw away hard earned privileges and remunerations. The answer lies with management boys. It'll never happen of course, but if we could cut out even 50% of the dead wood in waterworks, we'd save a fortune, and I bet no-one would even notice they'd gone!
In the meantime, lets work together. Maybe if the BALPA CCs could actually work together instead of confronting each other, we'd come up with a sensible compromise. I shan't hold my breath!
[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: Nosferatu ]</p>
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 389
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From: London
A lot of talk about union pressures, terms and conditions, strikes, etc. Is this really the approach to save BA at LGW? I think not!
Tandemrotor, has that desert island sun been getting to you? - in your first post you effectively justify the takeover of CFE on the basis of pilot T+C's and scope clauses. I'm sure pilot T+C's could have been improved within CFE with union negotiation, without the need to integrate the entire company and lose the management expertise which was so successfully focused on LGW short-haul operations. Even with some added costs and BA burdens, LGW short-haul would be in far better shape if CFE was still in existence, and anyone close to the business would find it very difficult to argue with that assessment.
I honestly believe that the unions have brought BA to their knees, and where will it get those union members? Out of work? I am certainly not gloating as I have many friends who will be affected if this is the case, and I just feel anger and sorrow at what has happened for purely political reasons.
The CFE management fought tooth and nail against what was clearly a ludicrous business decision, taken for political expediency.
Many people with their own short-term interests at heart forced a business decision which people will probably live to regret....including many of the pilots who argued over a few quid and crew meals.
Inevitably there were many CFE pilots who were happy to jump on the BA gravy-train, but there was also a lot of uncertainty and concern, despite whatever problems there may have been at CFE, at suddenly being absorbed into a loss-making company.
In trim.
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: In trim ]</p>
Tandemrotor, has that desert island sun been getting to you? - in your first post you effectively justify the takeover of CFE on the basis of pilot T+C's and scope clauses. I'm sure pilot T+C's could have been improved within CFE with union negotiation, without the need to integrate the entire company and lose the management expertise which was so successfully focused on LGW short-haul operations. Even with some added costs and BA burdens, LGW short-haul would be in far better shape if CFE was still in existence, and anyone close to the business would find it very difficult to argue with that assessment.
I honestly believe that the unions have brought BA to their knees, and where will it get those union members? Out of work? I am certainly not gloating as I have many friends who will be affected if this is the case, and I just feel anger and sorrow at what has happened for purely political reasons.
The CFE management fought tooth and nail against what was clearly a ludicrous business decision, taken for political expediency.
Many people with their own short-term interests at heart forced a business decision which people will probably live to regret....including many of the pilots who argued over a few quid and crew meals.
Inevitably there were many CFE pilots who were happy to jump on the BA gravy-train, but there was also a lot of uncertainty and concern, despite whatever problems there may have been at CFE, at suddenly being absorbed into a loss-making company.
In trim.
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: In trim ]</p>
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
From: A very long runway
Haven't read so much bollox for ages!!
Merry Xmas to all of you!!
<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Merry Xmas to all of you!!
<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: london
It worries me to hear so much poison and revulsion coming from those I consider to be colleagues. We all do the same job, just in different coloured planes.
In this ever changing world of aviation, I fear that one day I may find myself flying with someone who truly despises their employer. We almost have that at EOG with certain people already.
I have sensed sniping and bitching between EOG and CFE crews and am disgusted by it.
Whether we like it or not things have changed. Shut up and get on with your work. If it riles you so much get a job with ADI. Something which a self sponsored friend of myne has had to do having achieved his licence at the wrong time.
In this ever changing world of aviation, I fear that one day I may find myself flying with someone who truly despises their employer. We almost have that at EOG with certain people already.
I have sensed sniping and bitching between EOG and CFE crews and am disgusted by it.
Whether we like it or not things have changed. Shut up and get on with your work. If it riles you so much get a job with ADI. Something which a self sponsored friend of myne has had to do having achieved his licence at the wrong time.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 389
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From: London
easyJet have today announced expansion at Gatwick, with a number of routes including up to 5x daily to EDI. This will triple the size of easy's LGW operation.
This could potentially signal the start of a downward spiral for BA LGW if they are not careful.....competition makes existing routes unprofitable.....BA give up more routes / slots which are picked up by low-cost operators.....new routes started in competition with BA....etc.
This could potentially signal the start of a downward spiral for BA LGW if they are not careful.....competition makes existing routes unprofitable.....BA give up more routes / slots which are picked up by low-cost operators.....new routes started in competition with BA....etc.
Guest
Posts: n/a
If the arrival of easyjet means BA pull out of LGW then presumably they will move everything including longhaul. As a consequence everyone will feed into longhaul at Heathrow. That will leave a few US carriers and Virgin doing longhaul out of Gatwick. Since peoples main focus for longhaul would then be LHR,LGW then becomes a provincial airport again with a lot of capacity and only shorthaul. This talk of lowcost carriers pushing out the established operators who do longhaul flights could end up "poisoning the well" so to speak causing a reduction in passengers who actually want to travel through Gatwick. The only thing LGW has going for it is it's 30mins by train to London.
ex-Tanker
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 907
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From: Luton Beds UK
Mainfrog,
Something about tails wagging dogs springs to mind when I read this post. Established carrier relinquishes slot - low cost (also established) carrier takes slot. Where's the pushing here?
Something about tails wagging dogs springs to mind when I read this post. Established carrier relinquishes slot - low cost (also established) carrier takes slot. Where's the pushing here?
Guest
Posts: n/a
euroboy - maybe it is only 15 mins to LHR but I don't think easy are looking at LHR operations are they? In relation to their base in LTN it is better. This begs the question, when they are established at LGW will they pull out of LTN and will this cancel out some of the cost benefits of flying out of smaller slightly further away airports. Also weren't Barclays trying to push up their fees at LTN. Maybe easy are doing a better deal with BAA in the long term, if so why aren't BA turning the screws on BAA as well.
Guest
Posts: n/a
EJ did announce rather quickly (and probably without much thought) that they would start operating BFS-LHR when BA pulled off the route.
That major announcement seems to have died a death.
As for the 15 minutes by train to LHR, this was to show its quicker to get to LHR than LGW, and without South London usual rail cockups.
That major announcement seems to have died a death.
As for the 15 minutes by train to LHR, this was to show its quicker to get to LHR than LGW, and without South London usual rail cockups.