Do Pilots make good Managers?
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I like the way this discussion is going, however, I don't want to sell ourselves short by saying we are glorified truck drivers. Maybe we are to some people, but we're reasonably well paid truck drivers. Such valuable commodities who are the key revenue generators for the higher ups deserve no less than competent leaders. It lessens our value and lowers us in the eyes of our customers if we are seen (perceived) to be a bunch of whiners not happy with our lot in life. All too often, we adopt the (easiest) whining attitude without suggesting to our uppers that they are off track on any number of issues. We recognize that our managers are not mind readers, yet we seem to expect them to be. When they perform less than ideally our frustration over-runs and we complete the circle by bad mouthing the incompetent jerks through another round.
I think it is key that we let senior management know when we are happy with a particular manager just as we should keep them apprised when we are unsatisfied with one. We are also guilty of putting (or permitting) our managers to become compromised it their dealings with us. Where should (must) their loyaltyies lie. Are they a pilot first and foremost? Or, must they remain loyal to the Company and keep the bottom line in the forefront of their every decision?
I think it is key that we let senior management know when we are happy with a particular manager just as we should keep them apprised when we are unsatisfied with one. We are also guilty of putting (or permitting) our managers to become compromised it their dealings with us. Where should (must) their loyaltyies lie. Are they a pilot first and foremost? Or, must they remain loyal to the Company and keep the bottom line in the forefront of their every decision?
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Convair
I agree on Gordon Bethune.
But you missed the fact that he is not only a B-767 Pilot. He got the rating during his time as CEO of Boeing`s 757/767 production line.
Initially he was trained as a Navy Officer and technical platoon leader, afterwards he was in several management positions working his way up.
During this time he went back to University on a part time basis.
In his case he never flew the line.
I agree on Gordon Bethune.
But you missed the fact that he is not only a B-767 Pilot. He got the rating during his time as CEO of Boeing`s 757/767 production line.
Initially he was trained as a Navy Officer and technical platoon leader, afterwards he was in several management positions working his way up.
During this time he went back to University on a part time basis.
In his case he never flew the line.
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My impression is that the majority of G.A. businesses - flying schools, charter, and commuter operators - are (or initially were) started and operated, and managed by a pilot, either alone, or using other pilots to do the managerial, customer PR, and staff rostering/liason work.
Pilots generally "manage" pilot unions, which in turn should be the go-between in employee-employer relationships, effectively allowing both sides a buffer, as not all individuals are good "people persons", possessing interrelation, communication skills,
Pilots generally "manage" pilot unions, which in turn should be the go-between in employee-employer relationships, effectively allowing both sides a buffer, as not all individuals are good "people persons", possessing interrelation, communication skills,
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Of course they make bad managers. They are not selected to make good managers and thus be a threat to the incumbents. They are picked for their arslickan tendancies and utilised to to keep the other pilots in line. How else would a beancounter be able to control a brain surgeon other then through another more maleable and compliant colleague.
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Aircrew tend to make make awful managers. This is primarily because they prove themselves incapable of divorcing themselves from the "one of the lads" syndrome thus they act more like trade union leaders than company management.
There are of course some notable exceptions but in my experience generally performance is very poor.
There are of course some notable exceptions but in my experience generally performance is very poor.
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Oh come on....glueball is obviously a pilot wind up merchant...don't bite guys (and gals)
Great point from mac the knife. People with 'expert skills' who become managers tend to have trouble divorcing themselves from the technical side of the problems. But the other side of the coin is that it is hard for someone without the technical expertise to make the decisions. So the best compromise has to be someone who has "some" experience (alex ferguson!!) and is a good common sense decision maker who can take a stand back approach when it comes to decision making.
Inevitably this will upset some people as it always does. My golden rule in management is the 80/20 rule. If I make a decision which 80% of the people seem happy with it and a few screamers run into the office then it probably wasn't a bad one, but if it's 80% running in shouting about it then I probably stuffed up and need to look at things.
Great point from mac the knife. People with 'expert skills' who become managers tend to have trouble divorcing themselves from the technical side of the problems. But the other side of the coin is that it is hard for someone without the technical expertise to make the decisions. So the best compromise has to be someone who has "some" experience (alex ferguson!!) and is a good common sense decision maker who can take a stand back approach when it comes to decision making.
Inevitably this will upset some people as it always does. My golden rule in management is the 80/20 rule. If I make a decision which 80% of the people seem happy with it and a few screamers run into the office then it probably wasn't a bad one, but if it's 80% running in shouting about it then I probably stuffed up and need to look at things.
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Who/what is "a good manager"?
Is there an absolute standard?
Where would one find it?
Do we assess results/outcomes? Short term or long term.
From whose point of view?
Do we assess policies, or decisions?
It is all so subjective.
I would hazard a guess that statistically pilots are probably not much different from the rest of mankind, as managers go. There will be good ones, bad ones, and those in between. Same as accountants, lawyers, doctors, bus drivers, and hamburger flippers.
Given equal training, where you come from has little effect on where you go.
Given their background, training, and skills, one might be tempted to infer that pilots might be suited in some situations, and not others. However, the adaptability of the average human being usually means that a good man can perform well wherever he is put,and the opposite is true too, so there is no certainty in performance prediction either positive or negative, based on experience.
Like with horses, there are very few "sure things".
Having said all that, the qualities that make a good pilot are probably similar to those that make a good manager.
Common sense, clear analytical thinking, effective risk assessment and prioritisation of tasks, wide range of job related knowlege, communication skills, the ability to decide on a course of action without undue delay, and then monitor the effect of the decision- making changes where necessary, until successful completion of the task at hand.
Classic airmanship!
Should work pretty well in most other work environments.
Great theory, but it doesn't always work like that in real life. As I said earlier, in horses and life, there are no "sure things".
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lost in hold.
Is there an absolute standard?
Where would one find it?
Do we assess results/outcomes? Short term or long term.
From whose point of view?
Do we assess policies, or decisions?
It is all so subjective.
I would hazard a guess that statistically pilots are probably not much different from the rest of mankind, as managers go. There will be good ones, bad ones, and those in between. Same as accountants, lawyers, doctors, bus drivers, and hamburger flippers.
Given equal training, where you come from has little effect on where you go.
Given their background, training, and skills, one might be tempted to infer that pilots might be suited in some situations, and not others. However, the adaptability of the average human being usually means that a good man can perform well wherever he is put,and the opposite is true too, so there is no certainty in performance prediction either positive or negative, based on experience.
Like with horses, there are very few "sure things".
Having said all that, the qualities that make a good pilot are probably similar to those that make a good manager.
Common sense, clear analytical thinking, effective risk assessment and prioritisation of tasks, wide range of job related knowlege, communication skills, the ability to decide on a course of action without undue delay, and then monitor the effect of the decision- making changes where necessary, until successful completion of the task at hand.
Classic airmanship!
Should work pretty well in most other work environments.
Great theory, but it doesn't always work like that in real life. As I said earlier, in horses and life, there are no "sure things".
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lost in hold.
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Famous German proverb -
When God first made the body, all the different parts wanted to be the Manager...
First of all, it was the brain who argued that since it had to control the functions of the whole body, then it should be the Manager...Then the feet claimed that as they carry the brain, then they should be the Manager...next came the hands, who said that as they did most of the work, then they should be the Manager...and so it went on with all the different body parts wanting to be the Manager...
Finally, the ar**hole made its claim to be the Manager, but all the other parts just laughed...much to the annoyance of the ar**hole - who decided that he would go strike until he could be the Manager...
After a couple of days, the body's eyes became watered..the nails on the hands pushed themselves into the palms...the heart began to pound...the brain began to fever...the teeth began to clench....
When they could take it no more, the other parts of the body called an emergency meeting and the ar**hole was immediately elected as their Manager...and soon the body parts returned to working as hard as normal while the Manager just sat comfortably and dumped out sh*t all day...
Proof that all Managers are ar**holes
Prost !
[This message has been edited by Hussar 54 (edited 15 June 2001).]
When God first made the body, all the different parts wanted to be the Manager...
First of all, it was the brain who argued that since it had to control the functions of the whole body, then it should be the Manager...Then the feet claimed that as they carry the brain, then they should be the Manager...next came the hands, who said that as they did most of the work, then they should be the Manager...and so it went on with all the different body parts wanting to be the Manager...
Finally, the ar**hole made its claim to be the Manager, but all the other parts just laughed...much to the annoyance of the ar**hole - who decided that he would go strike until he could be the Manager...
After a couple of days, the body's eyes became watered..the nails on the hands pushed themselves into the palms...the heart began to pound...the brain began to fever...the teeth began to clench....
When they could take it no more, the other parts of the body called an emergency meeting and the ar**hole was immediately elected as their Manager...and soon the body parts returned to working as hard as normal while the Manager just sat comfortably and dumped out sh*t all day...
Proof that all Managers are ar**holes
Prost !
[This message has been edited by Hussar 54 (edited 15 June 2001).]
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“Excuse me” asked the man in the hot air balloon to the man on the ground, “I am lost, could you tell me where I am?” “Well” said the man on the ground, “you are in a hot air balloon, 10 feet of the ground, or with the present QNH 420 ft MSL, corrected for temperature, your position is 52 31.5 N and 001 28.3 W and with the wind 140 at 5 knots you’re drifting to the north west”.
“You must be a pilot” said the man in the balloon. “That’s correct, but how did you know” said the man on the ground. “Because” said the man in the balloon “what you told me is exact, to the point and technically correct but the fact is that I can do nothing with your information and I am still lost”. “You must be a manager” said the pilot. “That is true” said the man in the balloon, “but how do you know?” “Well”said the pilot, “you don’t know where you are or where you are going to. I gave you the information you asked for. Even though you are in exact the same position as before we met, somehow now I am to blame.”
“You must be a pilot” said the man in the balloon. “That’s correct, but how did you know” said the man on the ground. “Because” said the man in the balloon “what you told me is exact, to the point and technically correct but the fact is that I can do nothing with your information and I am still lost”. “You must be a manager” said the pilot. “That is true” said the man in the balloon, “but how do you know?” “Well”said the pilot, “you don’t know where you are or where you are going to. I gave you the information you asked for. Even though you are in exact the same position as before we met, somehow now I am to blame.”
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Some pilots do make good managers, having been given good training, but managers are a bit like teachers, some are naturally good at it and improve with training, others will never be any good given endless training. Something to do with the ability to get people on your side without being a bully....a manager who needs to be a bully just sucks at being a manager.
Also beware the pilot who wants to be a manager to have his name on a door and to elevate himself above his fellow pilots....bad news
Also beware the pilot who wants to be a manager to have his name on a door and to elevate himself above his fellow pilots....bad news
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Pilot Managers and Politicians are the same animal. By virtue of the fact that they want the office they prove themselves unsuitable for it. They should be prohibited for applying for these posts. The positions should filled by a nomination sysyem of their peers. This way we get the chaps and chapesses who are competent and know what it takes to run a company/ country...
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Frozen Falcon's point should be taken even further. Pilots should be managed by non pilots as regards discipline and motivation. Obviously on technical issues the reporting line has to be through pilots.
The reason that discipline and motivation issues are best dealt with through non pilots is best explained by the fact that pilots posting to this thread think it is wrong that maangement pilots should consider themselves different to other pilots. THAT IS THE POINT, they are different. They have to represent and sell the management line to their troops, even when they don't neccessarily agree with it.
In my experience they are invariably incapable of doing this as they fear that they will alienate themselves from their former colleagues if they were to be seen to be singing the management song.
[This message has been edited by Real World (edited 15 June 2001).]
The reason that discipline and motivation issues are best dealt with through non pilots is best explained by the fact that pilots posting to this thread think it is wrong that maangement pilots should consider themselves different to other pilots. THAT IS THE POINT, they are different. They have to represent and sell the management line to their troops, even when they don't neccessarily agree with it.
In my experience they are invariably incapable of doing this as they fear that they will alienate themselves from their former colleagues if they were to be seen to be singing the management song.
[This message has been edited by Real World (edited 15 June 2001).]
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Me. I make a fantastic Md, Chief Pilot et al.
Just ask any of my pilots/ cabin crew......thats if you can find one whos awake after a long duty!
Oh. And I reward very very well
But in my humble experience I find most management pilots covering up because they cant even fly or have NO self-confidence. ah well
Just ask any of my pilots/ cabin crew......thats if you can find one whos awake after a long duty!
Oh. And I reward very very well
But in my humble experience I find most management pilots covering up because they cant even fly or have NO self-confidence. ah well
