Near Collision at BOS between Aer Lingus and US Air
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Know the environment in which you operate and react accordingly. Dont go giving long-winded readbacks in crowded US airspace because they wont like it. They want to know you copied the heading and altitude and thats it. Its a matter of trust. They know what they're doing and they expect the same from you.No need to dot the i's and cross the t's.Its a gentleman's agreement.
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Almost everything that needs to be said has been said on this thread. The bottom line is that those who feel uncomfortable flying into US airports should NOT bid them.
Danny...you're the moderator and can edit what you wish, however I feel you pulled the pin a little early on some of the posts, in particular one by AMF. Describing some of us as "spotter experts for Dummies" seems a bit harsh. In my case I have spent over 35 years pushing airplanes across 5 continents. I may be a dummy but I ain't no spotter expert. I admit that Idunno was getting under my skin. He seems to have a talent for it. I would suggest it works against him with ATC over here. His first two posts on this thread are so outragous and downright abusive it's no wonder he attracted a few Sidewinders.
Idunno...take a Valium and stick to flying in a less demanding environment.
Danny...you're the moderator and can edit what you wish, however I feel you pulled the pin a little early on some of the posts, in particular one by AMF. Describing some of us as "spotter experts for Dummies" seems a bit harsh. In my case I have spent over 35 years pushing airplanes across 5 continents. I may be a dummy but I ain't no spotter expert. I admit that Idunno was getting under my skin. He seems to have a talent for it. I would suggest it works against him with ATC over here. His first two posts on this thread are so outragous and downright abusive it's no wonder he attracted a few Sidewinders.
Idunno...take a Valium and stick to flying in a less demanding environment.
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"Know the environment in which you operate and react accordingly. Dont go giving long-winded readbacks in crowded US airspace because they wont like it. They want to know you copied the heading and altitude and thats it. Its a matter of trust. They know what they're doing and they expect the same from you.No need to dot the i's and cross the t's.Its a gentleman's agreement"
They know what they're doing and they expect the same from you ...I am sure the crews of both aircraft involved in this incident would agree with you totally..!!!!!!!!!
They know what they're doing and they expect the same from you ...I am sure the crews of both aircraft involved in this incident would agree with you totally..!!!!!!!!!
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Idunno...take a Valium and stick to flying in a less demanding environment.
'Bidding off' US trips is not an option, its my job. Any other bright ideas? Retire maybe? Gimme a break.
I've flown all over the world and can adjust well enough to US 3rd world attitudes too - like I said at the beginning - I just remember each time I fly there they are basically out to kill me. That works for me - it engenders a valuable sense of self preservation.
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You american lot obviously haven't really got a clue about good aviation practices, I am glad I only operate in Europe.
Flying an aeroplane to it's limits is not flying it well. The limits are there so they can be used in an emergency, not all the time. A good pilot does not just get the aeroplane from A to B, he/she respects it's performance and capabilities and flies accordingly.
It seems from this thread that European ATC allows the aeroplane to be flown without pushing it too hard unnecessarily, and US ATC just wants to get it on the ground regardless of the method. I only fly light aircraft, but I know enough to realise that technique is important, not just doing something because it can and I can. It would appear that US ATC brings about a lot more stress in an already stressful situation...
"Idunno...take a Valium and stick to flying in a less demanding environment."
Well, flying into LHR is hardly undemanding, yet demands on the pilots are minimised by good air traffic control from all 5 major London airports.
Flying an aeroplane to it's limits is not flying it well. The limits are there so they can be used in an emergency, not all the time. A good pilot does not just get the aeroplane from A to B, he/she respects it's performance and capabilities and flies accordingly.
It seems from this thread that European ATC allows the aeroplane to be flown without pushing it too hard unnecessarily, and US ATC just wants to get it on the ground regardless of the method. I only fly light aircraft, but I know enough to realise that technique is important, not just doing something because it can and I can. It would appear that US ATC brings about a lot more stress in an already stressful situation...
"Idunno...take a Valium and stick to flying in a less demanding environment."
Well, flying into LHR is hardly undemanding, yet demands on the pilots are minimised by good air traffic control from all 5 major London airports.
Last edited by ChewyTheWookie; 30th Jun 2005 at 20:07.
Ohcirrej
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As it seems this "discussion" is again leaning towards what it was earlier 
, I think I'll post the same question here as is in the "scratch and bite" thread in ATC issues:
, I think I'll post the same question here as is in the "scratch and bite" thread in ATC issues:
I will ask drivers a simple question. At the end of a long flight, do you want an approach that doesn't spring any surprises on you, that is going to give you an intercept to final approach that isn't going to leave you high or fast with a TCAS bluttering at you about vertical speed and low level VFR traffic in you vicinity, with a runway change sprung on you at the last minute, all the while with the guy on the other end of the r/t trying his best to break the "words per minute" record?
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You american lot obviously haven't really got a clue about good aviation practices, I am glad I only operate in Europe
Typical PPrune yank-bashing.
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It seems to me, Danny, that every thread involving the key letters "U.S." becomes a disaster area for wind-up merchants and those who have a niggling political itch that won't go away, using aviation as a metaphor for annoyance at everything American in general. I see the same in the UK automobile magazines, where quite unrelated jibes at the US totally off-topic from cars plaster every editorial (eg: Apr 2005 'C@R' - 28 needless prods throughout spoiling an otherwise good read).
I know this pleases the masses, but it's embarrasingly childish for us Brits living overseas. Many Americans are not as ignorant as some of you think, political speeches notwithstanding, and the quiet masses politely smile and say nothing at Euro-rants. Just like British soccer hooliganism, it's the loud ones that sear an image into the memory. PPRUNE has become a relief-zone for suppressed xenophia, on both sides of the Atlantic. Some of the postings have descended into little more than lager-lout keyboard pushing.
I would remind viewers: the last major fatal ground collision occurred IN EUROPE. The last major fatal mid-air collision occurred IN EUROPE. It is therefore with astonishment I read some of the more "people in glass houses" postings from some of my fellow Europeans, land of the apparently perfect RT and procedures....hmmm.
Having flown in 127 countries, there's little wrong with the US or European systems. Flexibility - the key to air power....
I know this pleases the masses, but it's embarrasingly childish for us Brits living overseas. Many Americans are not as ignorant as some of you think, political speeches notwithstanding, and the quiet masses politely smile and say nothing at Euro-rants. Just like British soccer hooliganism, it's the loud ones that sear an image into the memory. PPRUNE has become a relief-zone for suppressed xenophia, on both sides of the Atlantic. Some of the postings have descended into little more than lager-lout keyboard pushing.
I would remind viewers: the last major fatal ground collision occurred IN EUROPE. The last major fatal mid-air collision occurred IN EUROPE. It is therefore with astonishment I read some of the more "people in glass houses" postings from some of my fellow Europeans, land of the apparently perfect RT and procedures....hmmm.
Having flown in 127 countries, there's little wrong with the US or European systems. Flexibility - the key to air power....
Last edited by RRAAMJET; 30th Jun 2005 at 21:35.
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And another thing....
Those of you who suggest its 'great fun' to push your aircraft to its limits to please ATC, and for your own amusement - you really need to consider a career change. You are obviously frustrated flying commercial transports.
I would suggest you might consider crop dusting.
Or maybe aerobatic display flying.
Or join the airforce.
Passenger transports are not designed for your entertainment. Passengers do not pay you to have a jolly at their expense, while they suffer through another of your max rate/max drag/ glide approaches.
Try to remember that this business is about SAFETY - not your FUN.
Whether you're a Yank or a Brit, there's no room for boy-racers in commercial aviation.
Those of you who suggest its 'great fun' to push your aircraft to its limits to please ATC, and for your own amusement - you really need to consider a career change. You are obviously frustrated flying commercial transports.
I would suggest you might consider crop dusting.
Or maybe aerobatic display flying.
Or join the airforce.
Passenger transports are not designed for your entertainment. Passengers do not pay you to have a jolly at their expense, while they suffer through another of your max rate/max drag/ glide approaches.
Try to remember that this business is about SAFETY - not your FUN.
Whether you're a Yank or a Brit, there's no room for boy-racers in commercial aviation.
mostly harmless
Good evening, this is your SLF speaking. May I ask a question?
Intersecting runways are, evidently a fact of life. The consensus (!) view on this thread is that the two BOS controllers were in error.
However, is there a general theory/approach to ensuring that BOS-type events cannot happen? If so, do operating procedures in practice conform with this general approach? Putting the question the other way round, is control of intersecting runways failsafe?
Hope this makes sense. And no, I'm not a journo, though they will be reading this thread.
Intersecting runways are, evidently a fact of life. The consensus (!) view on this thread is that the two BOS controllers were in error.
However, is there a general theory/approach to ensuring that BOS-type events cannot happen? If so, do operating procedures in practice conform with this general approach? Putting the question the other way round, is control of intersecting runways failsafe?
Hope this makes sense. And no, I'm not a journo, though they will be reading this thread.
Quotes from ChewyTheWookie
"I flew in there tonight (no, I am not a pilot by the way)"
"As crew for a large British airline"
Are you a flight attendent?
A few days later wookie posted the quote below. Did you manage to get a pilots license in the 10 or so pages of the thread? I ask since you made the point of telling us your not a pilot. If this thread has a few more days left on it, I'd be curious to find out if you end up with an ATPL
"I only fly light aircraft"
There is an entry price to this technically orientated slagging. Its called being an airline pilot or an Air traffic controller. Neither of which you are. Really, are you a flight attendent?
"I flew in there tonight (no, I am not a pilot by the way)"
"As crew for a large British airline"
Are you a flight attendent?
A few days later wookie posted the quote below. Did you manage to get a pilots license in the 10 or so pages of the thread? I ask since you made the point of telling us your not a pilot. If this thread has a few more days left on it, I'd be curious to find out if you end up with an ATPL
"I only fly light aircraft"
There is an entry price to this technically orientated slagging. Its called being an airline pilot or an Air traffic controller. Neither of which you are. Really, are you a flight attendent?
As I suspected. May be hell on wheels on evacuating an aircraft but his opinions carry no weight here. He is simply repeating what others tell him. He shouldn't have strong opinions about things he doesn't understand. There's a slide deployment thread around, I hope he spends some time there learning about what he should know about instead of here spouting off about things heard secondhand.
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Funny you should mention that because in another place his alter ego has been banging on about how he'd blow a slide and initiate an evacuation regardless of the instructions of the flight crew otherwise. Seems to be developing the BA cabin crew idea that we're all equally trained and skilled on board the aircraft and their assessment counts as much as ours.
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Well, now that we have pax and F/As chiming-in with "expert" opinions (in other words, slagging-off) on U.S. ATC, I'd like to hear from someone who's opinion has been formed by actual facts and experience.
I don't consider landing at a U.S. airport twice a month "very experienced" when it comes to judging an ATC system, especially if you can't reason your way into seeing why even basic arrival procedures are designed the way they are, or have trouble flying your airplane in compliance to instructions when 100 heavies just ahead of you that day didn't.
I'd like to read the opinion from someone schooled and experienced in the UK/Euro system, but who has also been based and operated extensively in the U.S. In other words; low-time, airline cadet, ab initio-ed gear pullers (even if you're pulling gear on a Speedbird heavy and have impeccable R/T) need not respond. Your opinion is worth barely more than the Euro PPL/FA or pax when it comes to making sweeping generalizations about the safety of a foreign ATC system....Your experience is so limited it carries almost no weight.
Someone with extensive, dual-based experience I'll listen to, and take into full consideration what they have to say if the subject is entire ATC systems whether they agree with me or not. My opinions on the matter have been formed over almost 25 years...15 based in the U.S. mostly in the Northeast corridor and O'hare, and almost 10 based in Europe/UK/Middle East/Africa, and operating worldwide from both.
Also, I've never had a violation, accident, incident, or even been scolded about improper R/T procedures despite being "merican (sorry guys, I won't generate "Stupid-Yank" fodder for you on the airwaves..you'll just have to peruse your Guardian and find something else). That's my record functioning in the various systems and into I-don't-know-how-many countries.
Anyone making the generalization that the U.S. ATC system is "trying to kill me" despite it's record pins himself as a member of the highly-INexperienced category, unable to adapt to minor changes in structure and procedures let alone anticipate them, and highly emotional. This implies a rote-memory level of proficiency in that person, and to cover it up they resort to scare-mongering to whoever will listen. Most "armchair experts" latch and cling-onto these rants, in order to be noticed themselves.
So please, can we hear from anyone who actually knows...through depth of experience... what they're talking about when comparing the two?
I don't consider landing at a U.S. airport twice a month "very experienced" when it comes to judging an ATC system, especially if you can't reason your way into seeing why even basic arrival procedures are designed the way they are, or have trouble flying your airplane in compliance to instructions when 100 heavies just ahead of you that day didn't.
I'd like to read the opinion from someone schooled and experienced in the UK/Euro system, but who has also been based and operated extensively in the U.S. In other words; low-time, airline cadet, ab initio-ed gear pullers (even if you're pulling gear on a Speedbird heavy and have impeccable R/T) need not respond. Your opinion is worth barely more than the Euro PPL/FA or pax when it comes to making sweeping generalizations about the safety of a foreign ATC system....Your experience is so limited it carries almost no weight.
Someone with extensive, dual-based experience I'll listen to, and take into full consideration what they have to say if the subject is entire ATC systems whether they agree with me or not. My opinions on the matter have been formed over almost 25 years...15 based in the U.S. mostly in the Northeast corridor and O'hare, and almost 10 based in Europe/UK/Middle East/Africa, and operating worldwide from both.
Also, I've never had a violation, accident, incident, or even been scolded about improper R/T procedures despite being "merican (sorry guys, I won't generate "Stupid-Yank" fodder for you on the airwaves..you'll just have to peruse your Guardian and find something else). That's my record functioning in the various systems and into I-don't-know-how-many countries.
Anyone making the generalization that the U.S. ATC system is "trying to kill me" despite it's record pins himself as a member of the highly-INexperienced category, unable to adapt to minor changes in structure and procedures let alone anticipate them, and highly emotional. This implies a rote-memory level of proficiency in that person, and to cover it up they resort to scare-mongering to whoever will listen. Most "armchair experts" latch and cling-onto these rants, in order to be noticed themselves.
So please, can we hear from anyone who actually knows...through depth of experience... what they're talking about when comparing the two?
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Well,I worked in the USA for about 3 years flying freight.
I must say the ATC was more than helpful especially being based in the midwest..
The american system is simple and effective from flight licensing to commercial operations..
In Europe,if it means Northern Europe,that is North of South of France..I have never had any concerns..only problem would be to become complecent due to the high level of ATC .
However in other states such as Italy,Spain,Greece,Turquey,lets not talk about North Africa...it becomes a daily #watch out# and listen out to their potential mistake..
Not 2 days ago flying to greece..on the published arrival,my flight was cleared to 5000 feet,problem being the minimum altitude for the approaching segment we were about to enter in a few minutes was 7000ft or Above .The EGPWS was showing a nice 5.7ft.
ATC gave us a last minute left turn as vectors forthe approach.Lets say they had forgoten about us..lots of blabla over there,we would have to level off before reaching the segment hence not satisfying their demand and may have had a traffic advisory..
Just an example but it goes on and on..ATC on the groung is far from a joyride either..
Stay safe and ATC is a guidance not an order.If not happy advise them before **** hits the fan;-)
If your coffee turned out cold..means you probably worked more than you should have.
M.85
I must say the ATC was more than helpful especially being based in the midwest..
The american system is simple and effective from flight licensing to commercial operations..
In Europe,if it means Northern Europe,that is North of South of France..I have never had any concerns..only problem would be to become complecent due to the high level of ATC .
However in other states such as Italy,Spain,Greece,Turquey,lets not talk about North Africa...it becomes a daily #watch out# and listen out to their potential mistake..
Not 2 days ago flying to greece..on the published arrival,my flight was cleared to 5000 feet,problem being the minimum altitude for the approaching segment we were about to enter in a few minutes was 7000ft or Above .The EGPWS was showing a nice 5.7ft.
ATC gave us a last minute left turn as vectors forthe approach.Lets say they had forgoten about us..lots of blabla over there,we would have to level off before reaching the segment hence not satisfying their demand and may have had a traffic advisory..
Just an example but it goes on and on..ATC on the groung is far from a joyride either..
Stay safe and ATC is a guidance not an order.If not happy advise them before **** hits the fan;-)
If your coffee turned out cold..means you probably worked more than you should have.
M.85
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I would remind viewers: the last major fatal ground collision occurred IN EUROPE. The last major fatal mid-air collision occurred IN EUROPE.
I do, however, have confidence that after these sad events occurred there was a complete and independent investigation and the faults and failings that led to them were identified. Procedures were changed - and not just at the locations were the accidents occurred - and training changed to try and prevent the same thing hppening again. I can really only speak for the UK but the same thing happens here for incidents - and similar systems are being introduced across Europe at present.
I'm not trying join the UK vs US debate which is, frankly, an embrassment. But can we have the same confidence that the incident at BOS that started this thread will be similarly investigated and lessons learned? Unless the answer is an unequivocal yes then we are not everything we can or should be to make aviation as safe as it can be - wherever we are in the world.