Unfair competitive advantage given by Turkish Authority?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Surrey UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes - and while we're here, what about the unfair competitive advantage enjoyed by Iberia in Spanish airspace? The shortcuts, vectoring of foreign traffic out of their way and queue-jumping at the holding points must save them mi££ions in fuel costs every year.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: mars
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Danny,
I find your post kind of naive to be honest. You have all this experience and still you think everything is fair in aviation. Iam not claiming that your issue is not true, however like other forum posters stated. There are so many more charters, national airlines that enjoy this so called advantage over other "foreign"airlines. This may be the weight, or other good stuff like the vectors that iberia is getting over other foreign airlines.
So in my view there is no need to highlight Turkey, just because onur air is in the picture at the moment. Also may I remind you that airlines from countries like turkey,marrocco,asia,africa are always looked at closer then other european countries. Being a european carrier doesn't necessarely mean that, everything is honky dory, reffering to air holland being sponsered by drugs money, and holland excel run by "criminals" both dutch read european country.
Cheers jimbolayah
I find your post kind of naive to be honest. You have all this experience and still you think everything is fair in aviation. Iam not claiming that your issue is not true, however like other forum posters stated. There are so many more charters, national airlines that enjoy this so called advantage over other "foreign"airlines. This may be the weight, or other good stuff like the vectors that iberia is getting over other foreign airlines.
So in my view there is no need to highlight Turkey, just because onur air is in the picture at the moment. Also may I remind you that airlines from countries like turkey,marrocco,asia,africa are always looked at closer then other european countries. Being a european carrier doesn't necessarely mean that, everything is honky dory, reffering to air holland being sponsered by drugs money, and holland excel run by "criminals" both dutch read european country.
Cheers jimbolayah
aka Capt PPRuNe
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, puleeze! Can we have a bit of mature debate here and not the usual "those nasty Spanish/French/(insert whatever) Air Traffic Controllers keep vectoring their aircraft in front of me" whinges. I've been flying all over Europe, Africa, Far East, North and South America and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I think I may have received some controlling that may be questionable. The vast majority of times most of you have no idea of the bigger picture that ATC has and to repeatedly whinge about them letting the locals in before you without any other evidence is little more than some kind of swagger about your percieved self importance.! 
My original post was about documented evidence of one regulatory authority giving at least one of its carriers a dispensation to use lighter than normal 'standard' pax weights. As was mentioned it may have given them some form of competitive advantage over competing carriers on the same routes with the same a/c types. As has been pointed out, this anomaly has now been removed and the Turkish DGAC have removed the dispensation.
Next time you think that ATC are mucking you about why don't you go up the tower or visit the control centre and get a real idea of how ATC really works. I am of course assuming that you are also fluent in the language of the country where you claim ATC deliberately try to mess you about.
My original post was about documented evidence of one regulatory authority giving at least one of its carriers a dispensation to use lighter than normal 'standard' pax weights. As was mentioned it may have given them some form of competitive advantage over competing carriers on the same routes with the same a/c types. As has been pointed out, this anomaly has now been removed and the Turkish DGAC have removed the dispensation.
Next time you think that ATC are mucking you about why don't you go up the tower or visit the control centre and get a real idea of how ATC really works. I am of course assuming that you are also fluent in the language of the country where you claim ATC deliberately try to mess you about.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have worked for several JAR operators over the EU and it is incorrect to claim Turkish carriers have such an advantage, or any operator / state. As has been indicated in other posts there are UK, Nordic, German, Irish and Italian companies that I have worked for who all use the 'charter' weights for scheduled flights, and indeed several use the intra-EU weights for intercontinental flights. Whats in the Ops manual Part A is by definition approved by the state, no matter how it disagrees with the text in JAR OPS 1. These operators continue to operate today with this lower weight approved and have not had it removed as appears to have happened in Turkey.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swedish
If the carrier wishes to hold a JAR approval the OM A, and all the others for that matter, must be approved and accepted by the JAA national authority.
It cannot disagree with JAR Ops 1 or JAR FCL 1. It can be more restrictive but not less so.
Now I can assure you that my experience is that Turkish operators will interpret JARs liberally; don't expect your flightcrew to be trained or necessarily competent in comparison to European flightcrew.
That said, there are exceptions, but the people who are genuinely good and strive to maintain standards are not managers holding the purse strings and tearing up contracts.
My experience is that Atlas have a good reputation and Corendon are likely to follow suit; Inter Ekspres are bottom of the pile, Pegasus are slightly better etc etc.
Nevertheless, you will always find some good people in each company chipping away trying to raise the game.
Pilots and owners / managers are not the same. We, the crews tend to have things forced upon us if we want to keep our jobs.
If the carrier wishes to hold a JAR approval the OM A, and all the others for that matter, must be approved and accepted by the JAA national authority.
It cannot disagree with JAR Ops 1 or JAR FCL 1. It can be more restrictive but not less so.
Now I can assure you that my experience is that Turkish operators will interpret JARs liberally; don't expect your flightcrew to be trained or necessarily competent in comparison to European flightcrew.
That said, there are exceptions, but the people who are genuinely good and strive to maintain standards are not managers holding the purse strings and tearing up contracts.
My experience is that Atlas have a good reputation and Corendon are likely to follow suit; Inter Ekspres are bottom of the pile, Pegasus are slightly better etc etc.
Nevertheless, you will always find some good people in each company chipping away trying to raise the game.
Pilots and owners / managers are not the same. We, the crews tend to have things forced upon us if we want to keep our jobs.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: atlanta
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would anyone use actual weights ?
Might be a market opportunity here then for a set of scales to weigh passengers at check-in.... that would end the fuzziness around whether the plane is 1300kgs overweight (maybe 3+ tonnes if a widebody) and allow for more accurate fuel and trim calculations. If you fly SAA on the 340 for a long hop you get your hand baggage weighed as well so why not the pax themselves, since the technology is there ????
Certainly 70 odd kgs doesn;t seem a very accurate average these days, espec in the US..... But is there a will to do this or do we wait until an incident?
Wasn''t there a Merchantman or similar freighter once that crashed on take-off because the weight of the cattle on board was determined by weighing one cow and multiplying it by the number on board. The subsequent investigation discovered that the one that wasn't pregnant got weighed whilst most of the rest were a lot heavier.....net result more tonnage than could be carried. It might be myth but it's a good story !!
Certainly 70 odd kgs doesn;t seem a very accurate average these days, espec in the US..... But is there a will to do this or do we wait until an incident?
Wasn''t there a Merchantman or similar freighter once that crashed on take-off because the weight of the cattle on board was determined by weighing one cow and multiplying it by the number on board. The subsequent investigation discovered that the one that wasn't pregnant got weighed whilst most of the rest were a lot heavier.....net result more tonnage than could be carried. It might be myth but it's a good story !!
