Jessica Starmer - BALPA's view (Update - Appeal decision)
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overstress So what happens when hypothetically ,JS achieves her bid to the -400 and gets to fly her 3 sectors a month ? BA , it would appear, are unable to stop her on the grounds of safety. A precedent has been set.
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"A precedent has been set"
Not in a legal sense. ie Other tribunals in the future aren't bound by the decision.
Indeed, Mrs Starmer may not have been so lucky if her claim had been heard by a different tribunal.
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A few contributors appear to think the dispute was about the safety or otherwise of part-time working. It wasn't. BA has many part-time pilots, and introduced a system in 2000 specifically intended to help working mothers among the women it has been actively recruiting for some years.
The 'flight safety' aspect of the dispute was BA's view that an applicant should have a sufficient level of experience in a concentrated period before being allowed to work a 50% contract. (It was prepared to agree to 75%.) Mrs Starmer hadn't actually worked for much of the time since completing her BA cadetship in 2001, and some of that had been ground duties because she was pregnant with the first child. At the time she applied, she hadn't flown for 19 months.
This Tribunal wasn't persuaded that there was any reason why any pilot, regardless of experience or lack of it, couldn't safely be permitted to work a 50% contract. It doesn't follow that another tribunal would take the same view.
Not in a legal sense. ie Other tribunals in the future aren't bound by the decision.
Indeed, Mrs Starmer may not have been so lucky if her claim had been heard by a different tribunal.
_______________
A few contributors appear to think the dispute was about the safety or otherwise of part-time working. It wasn't. BA has many part-time pilots, and introduced a system in 2000 specifically intended to help working mothers among the women it has been actively recruiting for some years.
The 'flight safety' aspect of the dispute was BA's view that an applicant should have a sufficient level of experience in a concentrated period before being allowed to work a 50% contract. (It was prepared to agree to 75%.) Mrs Starmer hadn't actually worked for much of the time since completing her BA cadetship in 2001, and some of that had been ground duties because she was pregnant with the first child. At the time she applied, she hadn't flown for 19 months.
This Tribunal wasn't persuaded that there was any reason why any pilot, regardless of experience or lack of it, couldn't safely be permitted to work a 50% contract. It doesn't follow that another tribunal would take the same view.
PPRuNe Person
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maxy:
not quite sure what you mean. If Jessica gets an ATPL at some point (I'm sure another Nigel will provide detail here) she will be OK for the -400. Then it will be a matter for the usual recency problems that everyone on that fleet suffer from.
There are plenty of (relatively) low-experienced pilots in BA on the -400. In fact at the moment BA are taking DEPs on that type.
not quite sure what you mean. If Jessica gets an ATPL at some point (I'm sure another Nigel will provide detail here) she will be OK for the -400. Then it will be a matter for the usual recency problems that everyone on that fleet suffer from.
There are plenty of (relatively) low-experienced pilots in BA on the -400. In fact at the moment BA are taking DEPs on that type.
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overstress Only that most of us cope on the -400 as full timers with 4 to 8 sectors (typically) a month. A 50 % part timer with JS 's lack of experience (in flying aeroplanes, not childcare) may struggle to maintain recency/SA/handling ability. I would agree it is less of a problem on BA's shorthaul fleets. It would appear though. that now BA have very little say on setting minimum hours requirements on safety grounds. i.e JS can now transfer to the -400 with 1000 hours or whatever siting that she doesn't have the minimum requirements that BA set for the -400 because she was discriminated against as a "working mother looking after beautiful Beth"
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<<...be permitted to work a 50% contract....>>
At the moment BA has defined 50% as (for the sake or the argument) 15 days on and 15 days off.
It doesn't have to be this way of course - it could be (approx) 7 days on then 7 off then 7 on etc.............
"Does the Team think" that safety would still be an issue in this case?
At the moment BA has defined 50% as (for the sake or the argument) 15 days on and 15 days off.
It doesn't have to be this way of course - it could be (approx) 7 days on then 7 off then 7 on etc.............
"Does the Team think" that safety would still be an issue in this case?
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Flying Lawyer could in fact have extended his opinion by saying that if BA do appeal against the Tribunal decision then, as they move further up the judicial ladder, a precedent can be set at some stage. The decision for or against BA could then becoming binding on all future tribunals.
It might well be in their best interest to bite the bullet on this one and put rules in place which would preclude a similar situation in the future.
It might well be in their best interest to bite the bullet on this one and put rules in place which would preclude a similar situation in the future.
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How many months has she put into her chosen career?
I presume she put in 100% while at college, but what about after joining BA... When did she join? Final line check completed? Grounded due pregnancy? Final line check following return to work? Grounded again due pregnancy?
Perhaps it would be simpler to establish when she has been at work.
I for one, having given 35 years to BEA/BA feel she has done nothing for any pilot, let alone the female pilot. I am sure I am not the only one.
Forget fellow pilots thinking she is "taking the p**s", the Cabin Crew community are livid, and they will take their revenge!
"We are not going out on this nightstop", "sorry didn't someone offer you a coffee", "Any First Class meals left? Sorry, No, but here's you crew tray" The list is endless.
I will be personally surprised to see her back after the latest sprog!
I presume she put in 100% while at college, but what about after joining BA... When did she join? Final line check completed? Grounded due pregnancy? Final line check following return to work? Grounded again due pregnancy?
Perhaps it would be simpler to establish when she has been at work.
I for one, having given 35 years to BEA/BA feel she has done nothing for any pilot, let alone the female pilot. I am sure I am not the only one.
Forget fellow pilots thinking she is "taking the p**s", the Cabin Crew community are livid, and they will take their revenge!
"We are not going out on this nightstop", "sorry didn't someone offer you a coffee", "Any First Class meals left? Sorry, No, but here's you crew tray" The list is endless.
I will be personally surprised to see her back after the latest sprog!
Last edited by woodpecker; 10th May 2005 at 07:33.
Just another number
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Dave
If, after the next round of maternity leave she was to decide that she could not return to flying because of her recent experiences, would she have a claim for constructive dismissal? Would BALPA support her in this claim? Has she already discussed this possibility with your lawyers?
Airclues
If, after the next round of maternity leave she was to decide that she could not return to flying because of her recent experiences, would she have a claim for constructive dismissal? Would BALPA support her in this claim? Has she already discussed this possibility with your lawyers?
Airclues
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I am sure she would and furthermore if she returns and in anyway recieves less favourable treatment than her peers she can take BA to court or if she in anyway feels she is being victimised for taking the action in the first place.
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"We are not going out on this nightstop", "sorry didn't someone offer you a coffee", "Any First Class meals left? Sorry, No, but here's you crew tray" The list is endless.
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I actually reckon she's taken a backward step in terms of helping more women into BA. There will of course have to be the bare minimum to please the pc brigade and the daily mail. Who are BA going to recruit in future? more types like her or the bloke who will give 35 unpregnant years to the company?
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Who is in charge at British Airways, the management or BALPA?
The management solution is simple: Put her on the B737 or B757. With little opportunity in her career to gain or maintain the skills required to pass the course and/or recurrent checks on a conventional aircraft, sack her for lack of performance at work or with her agreement insist she goes full time in order to build the skills necessary to reach line standard.
The management solution is simple: Put her on the B737 or B757. With little opportunity in her career to gain or maintain the skills required to pass the course and/or recurrent checks on a conventional aircraft, sack her for lack of performance at work or with her agreement insist she goes full time in order to build the skills necessary to reach line standard.
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bat.man Every pilot in BA has the right to bid to change aircraft/seat every year , subject to certain defined freeze periods. I would suspect that if BA does what you suggest, JS would have a claim for constructive dismissal. People forget that everybody is equal in BA from the Flight crew to the bottom of the pyramid. Except that some people are more equal than others and frequently take advantage of their position if they think that they can get away with it. BA Staff travellers will know what I'm talking about.
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The management solution is simple: Put her on the B737 or B757. With little opportunity in her career to gain or maintain the skills required to pass the course and/or recurrent checks on a conventional aircraft, sack her for lack of performance at work or with her agreement insist she goes full time in order to build the skills necessary to reach line standard
In the past cadets went straight out of Prestwick/Oxford onto the Tristar with no problems, that had much less flying than 50% of an Airbus roster.
This 2000 hr safety issue is a nonsense. There is not one Airbus Captain in BA who has flown with Jess (or any of her ilk) who would be even slightly concerned about her standard of operation on a part time basis.
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I'm a bit surprised that "Wiley's" comment back on Page 8 drew no replies. ("Is this case a good illustration for the argument to drop the whole sponsored cadet idea?")
I'm guessing there'd be no prizes for guessing what the last poster, "Justbelowcap", thought of that suggestion.
I'm guessing there'd be no prizes for guessing what the last poster, "Justbelowcap", thought of that suggestion.
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A collegue of mine was speaking to a senior BA bod who expressed the view that there was no need to go back to sponsoring as there is a large number of type qualified eastern european pilot who would love to work for BA. Probably most are also male, so by recruiting already qualified pilots they could get round the issue of employing female's.
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Are these the same senior BA bods who thought there were a large number of UK ATPL holders with 744,777 or 320 ratings waiting to join BA? I've no doubt there are plenty of eastern european pilots, but whether they have the required standard of english (and lets be honest, it'll have to be nothing less than fluent, not just aviation terminology) remains to be seen.
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...in which case if Hand Solo is correct (and I've no reason to doubt he is) and there isn't a glut of appropriately qualified pilots out there, just who exactly is going to be drafted in to replace all these folks going part time?
(Assuming of course that EITHER the number of applications for PT from aspiring mums-to-be on the BA line does increase as a result of this tribunal AND/OR this becomes the catalyst, as Balpa claim they wish it to be, for getting more widespread PT working arrangements across the board at British airlines).
Either it means that the hours will have to be worked by those remaining on the line (arguably most likely, swapping one inequity for another?) or BA will have to recruit un-typed/un-experienced pilots.
If the latter option is chosen, then BA will incur additional training costs and face a significant lead time. And while the part-time safety issue might be irrelevant when it comes to Mrs Starmer, would the 250-hour newly-typed newbie that replaces her flying on a 50% contract be considered 'safe' by the travelling public?
Recruiting new staff also relies on BA being attractive to applicants, something which (based on a current thread in T&E) may not be as much as a given as it has been in the past. Did someone say no decent pension for new joiners? Not to mention the ever-increasing wait for command (especially if the number of pilots accruing the same seniority for doing half the work increases...)
{edited to outwit the grammar police}
(Assuming of course that EITHER the number of applications for PT from aspiring mums-to-be on the BA line does increase as a result of this tribunal AND/OR this becomes the catalyst, as Balpa claim they wish it to be, for getting more widespread PT working arrangements across the board at British airlines).
Either it means that the hours will have to be worked by those remaining on the line (arguably most likely, swapping one inequity for another?) or BA will have to recruit un-typed/un-experienced pilots.
If the latter option is chosen, then BA will incur additional training costs and face a significant lead time. And while the part-time safety issue might be irrelevant when it comes to Mrs Starmer, would the 250-hour newly-typed newbie that replaces her flying on a 50% contract be considered 'safe' by the travelling public?
Recruiting new staff also relies on BA being attractive to applicants, something which (based on a current thread in T&E) may not be as much as a given as it has been in the past. Did someone say no decent pension for new joiners? Not to mention the ever-increasing wait for command (especially if the number of pilots accruing the same seniority for doing half the work increases...)
{edited to outwit the grammar police}
Last edited by Decisive Attitude; 10th May 2005 at 16:32.
