Ryanair Erc Members Resign Please!
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I understand the big picture but what are we saying here.
If there was no meeting the company would not have probably awarded the 3% and the other things we got back.
So would we rather have forgone all those things for STN in support of DUB or if the pilots had been consulted would it have been ok then to have the 3%.
Not quite sure where we would be if that went to a vote. The problem with this company is to many people dont give a damn and we are full of aviation mercaneries - where money is their God.
If there was no meeting the company would not have probably awarded the 3% and the other things we got back.
So would we rather have forgone all those things for STN in support of DUB or if the pilots had been consulted would it have been ok then to have the 3%.
Not quite sure where we would be if that went to a vote. The problem with this company is to many people dont give a damn and we are full of aviation mercaneries - where money is their God.
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Thanks for your temperate response Say Mach Number. I take the essential message that everybody has a point of view.
However, on a "not insignificant" technicality, the 3% is the return of a sum that was taken, without discussion or negotiation. It is not a pay increase, it is only represented by some as an increase. (Remember the terms of the 2000 agreement?).
It seems almost certain that this modest sum is really being dictated by the increased number of departures and difficulties in attracting captains. In that case, Ryanair simply have to give it (I mean, does anyone really think this is about kindness or fairness or .... what?). The “negotiations” are indeed a sham.
I think minuteman has the right idea. Proper, real, non-manipulated negotiations, or none at all.
However, on a "not insignificant" technicality, the 3% is the return of a sum that was taken, without discussion or negotiation. It is not a pay increase, it is only represented by some as an increase. (Remember the terms of the 2000 agreement?).
It seems almost certain that this modest sum is really being dictated by the increased number of departures and difficulties in attracting captains. In that case, Ryanair simply have to give it (I mean, does anyone really think this is about kindness or fairness or .... what?). The “negotiations” are indeed a sham.
I think minuteman has the right idea. Proper, real, non-manipulated negotiations, or none at all.
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Maxalt - I think YOU are the one who needs to take a good look at the Facts. If we park the staff issues to one side, it is a fact that FR has a huge following (it carrys 2.5 million pax a month), it has one of the newest fleets in the business fact. I agree with much of what has been said above about the ERC but at the end of the day it is a very successful company which remains so during very difficult times. You can knock the way it treats its staff but you can't knock its appeal to the flying public.
Let me think about that a second.....
Errrr....nope....I still don't get the link.
Maybe you'd better explain it to me.
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Max - all I'm saying is the company may not be giving you what you want (and of course you shouldn't roll over), but they are giving the flying public what they want.
I know its been said time and time again in connection with FR but you always have the choice to move on.
I know its been said time and time again in connection with FR but you always have the choice to move on.
I call you back
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Hansol,
The flying public don't know what they are getting. They don't know the maintenace records, the crews training records, the crews/engineers/cabin crews recent rest schedule, the staff morale, industrial relations within a company, the safety culture within a company.
The flying public at the moment would rather pay Ł10 for a flight and then Ł100's for a hotel room. They take safety for granted. We the pilots do not.
The flying public don't know what they are getting. They don't know the maintenace records, the crews training records, the crews/engineers/cabin crews recent rest schedule, the staff morale, industrial relations within a company, the safety culture within a company.
The flying public at the moment would rather pay Ł10 for a flight and then Ł100's for a hotel room. They take safety for granted. We the pilots do not.
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Arkroyal,
I can see where you are coming from, and it must be frustrating for you guys to put up with poor terms and conditions to allow us to fly more cheaply. Problem is, with the huge amount of competition around amongst the low cost airlines, it will probably be difficult to overcome. As an aviation enthusiast, and trainee PPL, it's difficult to see beyond the fact, that to my eyes, you have the best job in the World!! As it's day to day routine for you, I can see how such matters are a thorn in the side.
Anyway, that's positively my last word on the subject, other than to wish you all good flying (and better working conditions!!)
I can see where you are coming from, and it must be frustrating for you guys to put up with poor terms and conditions to allow us to fly more cheaply. Problem is, with the huge amount of competition around amongst the low cost airlines, it will probably be difficult to overcome. As an aviation enthusiast, and trainee PPL, it's difficult to see beyond the fact, that to my eyes, you have the best job in the World!! As it's day to day routine for you, I can see how such matters are a thorn in the side.
Anyway, that's positively my last word on the subject, other than to wish you all good flying (and better working conditions!!)
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Say mach number. I believe that the 3 % pay rise had nothing to do with the ERC. It was for two reasons, firstly as a stick to beat the Dublin pilots and secondly guys are leaving and its beginning to hurt. Lets not forget that we had five aircraft wet leased in last week because we did not have enough staff to fly our own. I heard that on one day it cost the company Ł750000. Another example of poor management I'm afraid, saving pennies and losing pounds.
As for the ERC members I know them as well. And because I know them to be decent guys i am asking them to resign and but themselves forward for election. We have a correct way of doing things and its time we stood up for what is right.
As for the ERC members I know them as well. And because I know them to be decent guys i am asking them to resign and but themselves forward for election. We have a correct way of doing things and its time we stood up for what is right.
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Just to clarify
Just to put everything back into perspective...
for starters, those discussing about Passenger comforts and so forth on this forum, I don't mean to be rude in any way but it is spoiling the flow of this discussion slightly...
Although it is still rewarding to hear that the professional job our colleagues are doing in the face of so much adversity is ensuring that Ryanair keeps a good name amongst our fare-paying passengers... we really need to start focusing on the issue specified for this forum...
...could you be so kind as to open a new forum for that discussion, and place a link to that from this one so those reading on can still find you too...
The greatest frusterations with this issue so far seem to be related to the fact that the conditions 'awarded' to the pilots are purely repressentative of predictions made when the cuts were first made this time last year... It was said then they would take it all and give only half back, coming out as the good guys...
3% increase is what was agreed with by the pilot body from day one. It's threatened removal, along with other benefits and conditions, was in reaction to a predicted 'blood-bath' which never emerged...
As a result, the company has continued to grow in profits and passenger numbers, yet the benefits taken away have not been returned to the employees even though there is no concise argument as to why they should be withheld...
To then force the pilots to have to 'negotiate' for only part of what was taken away is so obviously telling of how the company considers it's worker's rights it becomes nauseating.
This is where the frusteration lies. For all the good intentions and hopes from Marco, Pavel, and Andrew, management is still unfairly manipulating theirs and many other's perspective of what they are actually rightfully entitled to... I am saddened that they did not take the opportunity beforehand to further inform themselves by signing up for REPA before the conclusion of these negotiations...
I only hope they do so now in reaction to the outcry from the pilot body...
There should be no place for these negotiations. They were never necessary. The point remains that what the company took away was still entitled to us, and should have been given back once it was obvious earlier predictions were highly inaccurate...
We are beyond that now...
I find that I also join the request to our colleagues brave enough to put their jobs on the line, but perhaps acted unbeknowingly to management's own interest, to step down from their positions and acknowledge the base committees for what they really are...
It fills one with sorrow, and at the same time anger at such open and malicious manipulation and intimidation...especially when it ultimately destroys the hopes and aspirations of those couraegous enough to dream...
for starters, those discussing about Passenger comforts and so forth on this forum, I don't mean to be rude in any way but it is spoiling the flow of this discussion slightly...
Although it is still rewarding to hear that the professional job our colleagues are doing in the face of so much adversity is ensuring that Ryanair keeps a good name amongst our fare-paying passengers... we really need to start focusing on the issue specified for this forum...
...could you be so kind as to open a new forum for that discussion, and place a link to that from this one so those reading on can still find you too...
The greatest frusterations with this issue so far seem to be related to the fact that the conditions 'awarded' to the pilots are purely repressentative of predictions made when the cuts were first made this time last year... It was said then they would take it all and give only half back, coming out as the good guys...
3% increase is what was agreed with by the pilot body from day one. It's threatened removal, along with other benefits and conditions, was in reaction to a predicted 'blood-bath' which never emerged...
As a result, the company has continued to grow in profits and passenger numbers, yet the benefits taken away have not been returned to the employees even though there is no concise argument as to why they should be withheld...
To then force the pilots to have to 'negotiate' for only part of what was taken away is so obviously telling of how the company considers it's worker's rights it becomes nauseating.
This is where the frusteration lies. For all the good intentions and hopes from Marco, Pavel, and Andrew, management is still unfairly manipulating theirs and many other's perspective of what they are actually rightfully entitled to... I am saddened that they did not take the opportunity beforehand to further inform themselves by signing up for REPA before the conclusion of these negotiations...
I only hope they do so now in reaction to the outcry from the pilot body...
There should be no place for these negotiations. They were never necessary. The point remains that what the company took away was still entitled to us, and should have been given back once it was obvious earlier predictions were highly inaccurate...
We are beyond that now...
I find that I also join the request to our colleagues brave enough to put their jobs on the line, but perhaps acted unbeknowingly to management's own interest, to step down from their positions and acknowledge the base committees for what they really are...
It fills one with sorrow, and at the same time anger at such open and malicious manipulation and intimidation...especially when it ultimately destroys the hopes and aspirations of those couraegous enough to dream...
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Chickenscanfly...all well said. This is quite a good and relevent (to me) topic. It is being marred by people who (through no fault of their own) have no idea what is happening i.e. customers. It is about manipulation of staff and the courts and the erosion of working conditions....nothing to do with passengers.
Somebody mentioned early on in this thread that ryanair customers are happy and that this was somehow a justification for their actions on staff. This reminded me of the happy satisfied customers who bought mink coats from Harrods in the 60's. Just because the customers are happy doesn't make it right to sell them and condone the slaughter of animals for fashion accessories!!
And thanks to SayMachNumb for your 'measured' response to my comments. I didn't intend to attack you and I think you took it as such.
I thought I was one of few 'insiders' who felt this way. It seems I am not alone!! The fact the deal has been done puts us in what is possibly an irreversible situation. Personnally I feel I now have no way of having my voice heard. I know 2 of these guys reasonably well and I do like them, but what should I do? My gut feeling is to ask them "what the hell do you think you were doing?" at 90 decibels (the legal limit without ear protection!!), but it may be too much for well intentioned guys who made a mistake. Maybe lots of gentle comments may sort it out.
Somebody mentioned early on in this thread that ryanair customers are happy and that this was somehow a justification for their actions on staff. This reminded me of the happy satisfied customers who bought mink coats from Harrods in the 60's. Just because the customers are happy doesn't make it right to sell them and condone the slaughter of animals for fashion accessories!!
And thanks to SayMachNumb for your 'measured' response to my comments. I didn't intend to attack you and I think you took it as such.
I thought I was one of few 'insiders' who felt this way. It seems I am not alone!! The fact the deal has been done puts us in what is possibly an irreversible situation. Personnally I feel I now have no way of having my voice heard. I know 2 of these guys reasonably well and I do like them, but what should I do? My gut feeling is to ask them "what the hell do you think you were doing?" at 90 decibels (the legal limit without ear protection!!), but it may be too much for well intentioned guys who made a mistake. Maybe lots of gentle comments may sort it out.
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The 'negotiating' powers of the ERC are amply demonstrated in the following example:
<The ERC stated that the payment for airside ID cards was unacceptable and was introduced without any consultation and should immediately be reversed.
Management response:
The abolition of Airport IDs cost represents a substantial saving to Ryanair. All costs including the recently introduced CRCs check in the UK will be directly borne by individuals. >
In other words Ryanair management do exactly as they please; the ERC has no ability to negotiate anything.
I don't like unions; look what Balpa did for Danair and more recently Easyjet. They took loads of money and achieved little or nothing. However, we do need a voice with some teeth. Repa may be the way.....
<The ERC stated that the payment for airside ID cards was unacceptable and was introduced without any consultation and should immediately be reversed.
Management response:
The abolition of Airport IDs cost represents a substantial saving to Ryanair. All costs including the recently introduced CRCs check in the UK will be directly borne by individuals. >
In other words Ryanair management do exactly as they please; the ERC has no ability to negotiate anything.
I don't like unions; look what Balpa did for Danair and more recently Easyjet. They took loads of money and achieved little or nothing. However, we do need a voice with some teeth. Repa may be the way.....
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As stated earlier, this thread is about relationships between Ryanair and the Ryanair pilot workforce. Nothing else.
In order to keep focus would those passengers who wish to discuss their experiences on Ryanair, be they positive, negative, neutral or otherwise please do so in the Passengers and SLF forum here, and leave this thread on-topic. With respect, this is internal politics in a major Airline that potentially has an impact on the whole of the industry. Diverting discussions down blind-alleys that merely consist of "I flew Ryanair to X from Y and they were OK/crap/ not bad, don't care" adds precisely nothing to this debate, and future posts in such a vein will be moved or deleted, as they merely distract the debate.
Continue please, but stay on topic, respect the title of the thread, and keep the fight clean.
In order to keep focus would those passengers who wish to discuss their experiences on Ryanair, be they positive, negative, neutral or otherwise please do so in the Passengers and SLF forum here, and leave this thread on-topic. With respect, this is internal politics in a major Airline that potentially has an impact on the whole of the industry. Diverting discussions down blind-alleys that merely consist of "I flew Ryanair to X from Y and they were OK/crap/ not bad, don't care" adds precisely nothing to this debate, and future posts in such a vein will be moved or deleted, as they merely distract the debate.
Continue please, but stay on topic, respect the title of the thread, and keep the fight clean.
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It simply is a political game. The main problem is the origional 5 year agreement having "unforseen circumstances" clause in it. As there is/was no unforseen circumstances either forcast or actually happening, then the origional agreement should be withheld and all the bits taken away replaced. Take them to court over this issue alone and I think some back pay etc will be owed. The problem is who to do our dirty work repa, balpa,ialpa or an elected body of pilot representatives. My own view is the latter as long as it is all official and above board. On another note why not threaten balpa/ialpa representation in exchange for this, that is what he fears the most after all.!
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Finman
While your comments about Danair are sound they are not applicable to easyjet. Your comment also shows your lack of understanding of how BALPA works within a company. First of all the driving force comes from the company members who are willing to stand as officers of the union to represent their colleagues, with expert advise coming from the head office. If this support is good value for money is another debate altogether. The next key element is membership level. Without high levels of membership within a company it is impossible to threaten a management with the ultimatum of a strike however good or bad the union is. This will also be REPA's undoing if the work force spread over many countries do not all join and sing from the same hymn sheet.
Good luck with your work conditons since where ever MOL goes with his work practices the other loco management follow.
While your comments about Danair are sound they are not applicable to easyjet. Your comment also shows your lack of understanding of how BALPA works within a company. First of all the driving force comes from the company members who are willing to stand as officers of the union to represent their colleagues, with expert advise coming from the head office. If this support is good value for money is another debate altogether. The next key element is membership level. Without high levels of membership within a company it is impossible to threaten a management with the ultimatum of a strike however good or bad the union is. This will also be REPA's undoing if the work force spread over many countries do not all join and sing from the same hymn sheet.
Good luck with your work conditons since where ever MOL goes with his work practices the other loco management follow.
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Can anyone at any Ryanair base tell us of an ERC that has been properly voted into "office". As far as I can see not a single one has been elected and most have been "appointed" in recent weeks.
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Quote "So would we rather have forgone all those things for STN in support of DUB or if the pilots had been consulted would it have been ok then to have the 3%. Not quite sure where we would be if that went to a vote."
Say machnumb......The point I keep trying to drive home is the exact and percise answer to the question you have asked
WE WOULD BE WHERE WE VOTED TO BE!! My point is that it doesn't matter a damn what we (the pilot body) agree to to do. The fact we vote to agree on something means we had a voice and a number of representitives would go out to achieve the goal set out.
This is the fundementals of collective barganing that MOL is so against. But we keep thinking small and wondering "what if" about each issue. It doesn't matter "what if" about your personal circumstances. If a collective body, of which you form part of, come to an agreement then go in pusuit of that goal and achieve it (somewhat) then we have true success.
Your personal "inching forward" by private deals is generally to the detriment of somebody else if no collective bargining process is in place (the term "your" is generic and not you specifically of course).
Still not sure if I'm explaining myself properly....does this make sense?
Say machnumb......The point I keep trying to drive home is the exact and percise answer to the question you have asked
WE WOULD BE WHERE WE VOTED TO BE!! My point is that it doesn't matter a damn what we (the pilot body) agree to to do. The fact we vote to agree on something means we had a voice and a number of representitives would go out to achieve the goal set out.
This is the fundementals of collective barganing that MOL is so against. But we keep thinking small and wondering "what if" about each issue. It doesn't matter "what if" about your personal circumstances. If a collective body, of which you form part of, come to an agreement then go in pusuit of that goal and achieve it (somewhat) then we have true success.
Your personal "inching forward" by private deals is generally to the detriment of somebody else if no collective bargining process is in place (the term "your" is generic and not you specifically of course).
Still not sure if I'm explaining myself properly....does this make sense?
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where would we be - DEMOCRATIC.
whether or not these unelected individuals with their individual agendas,had the right to negotiate on the pilots behalf aside,the scraps they were thrown from the table were appalling.piss poor performance.
whether or not these unelected individuals with their individual agendas,had the right to negotiate on the pilots behalf aside,the scraps they were thrown from the table were appalling.piss poor performance.