Pilot rebels against security check
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Hard for me to understand why the non flight crew types here get in a flap about our opinions about security in our industry, including TSA types, maybe because as crewmembers traveling around the world, we see the many inconsistancies throughout the system. For instance I was recently based in ATL, I would swipe my ID in the card reader and if the light turned green I would then be able to walk through the turnstyle, the TSA would be sitting on the far side of the turnstyle to check that the picture matchs my face, no xray, no metal detector and no bomb sniffing, simply a valid ID.
This is the security at one of worlds busiest airport, now in the city I live, I am scrutinized like the mad shoe bomber, while ramp staff that got a job two weeks ago bypass security altogether, this my friends is why I feel airport security is window dressing for the public, what a farce
Dream Land
This is the security at one of worlds busiest airport, now in the city I live, I am scrutinized like the mad shoe bomber, while ramp staff that got a job two weeks ago bypass security altogether, this my friends is why I feel airport security is window dressing for the public, what a farce
Dream Land
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Been keeping an eye on replies
Carlton Browne FO has the best.
There is a lot, lot, more to airport security than what you and pax see at the 'coal face'. Things you don't see, and never will, no matter how many gold rings you have around your sleeves.
And many of the sy operatives are degree educated, trained in surveillance, and other skills.
Don't be fooled by what you erroneously think is 'inside the uniforms'.
Carlton Browne FO has the best.
There is a lot, lot, more to airport security than what you and pax see at the 'coal face'. Things you don't see, and never will, no matter how many gold rings you have around your sleeves.
And many of the sy operatives are degree educated, trained in surveillance, and other skills.
Don't be fooled by what you erroneously think is 'inside the uniforms'.
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Some US airports are now requiring that a video camera also be passed through security separately (as well as a computer).
Does anyone know if a laptop (or camera) has ever been used in a hijack attempt?
The whole issue is a joke so long as security only applies to the crew and passengers while the rest of the airport gets a free pass. Like paying for security service on your home and they put a detector on the front door only, leaving the back door and windows unguarded. What amuses me is that so many people buy the whole TSA garbage, even pilots.
You CAN fool all of the people all of the time! The TSA (and their equivalents) are proving it every day!
Does anyone know if a laptop (or camera) has ever been used in a hijack attempt?
The whole issue is a joke so long as security only applies to the crew and passengers while the rest of the airport gets a free pass. Like paying for security service on your home and they put a detector on the front door only, leaving the back door and windows unguarded. What amuses me is that so many people buy the whole TSA garbage, even pilots.
You CAN fool all of the people all of the time! The TSA (and their equivalents) are proving it every day!
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One day security at CPH took my leatherman of me. As we are cargo crew, we have to carry our bags ourselves to the the airplane therefore we take everything as carry on luggage. They opened and emptied my suitcase, found everything suspect like a box of minidisks with music I carry, finally found my leatherman. It's got a knife with a blade of 7 cm; the maximum allowed is 6.5 cm; you ought to know that! This one is an illegal arm.
What we have to do now is go to another counter, one for luggage-hold luggage, where these things àre allowed... and then pick up the luggage on the other side of the wall, airside.
The CPH security people absolutely fail to see the absurdity
What we have to do now is go to another counter, one for luggage-hold luggage, where these things àre allowed... and then pick up the luggage on the other side of the wall, airside.
The CPH security people absolutely fail to see the absurdity
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My 2 cents ... In Canada, being screened for a US departure, the laptop has to come out of the bag and is (usually) subject to a quick scan with some sort of swab that is then inserted into a machine which gives the ok. If unsure if they want to have it taken out, I ask. Simple.
As crew, I never hurry. If they want to go through all my stuff, I take my time and fold coat/jacket carefully before putting them in the tray for scanning, etc. Same thing at the other end. In the US when shoes have to be put on, I take my time and if it holds others up, too bad! I'm not looking like an idiot hopping around with shoelaces undone trying to get out of everybody's way. If they yell at me or otherwise upset me, I'm going for a leisurely coffee to regain my composure before going to the cockpit.
Another thing. If security are going to do a manual search of my belongings, they better have gloves on ... I insist on it. They don't like it, but tough. Who knows where their hands have been or what they have been handling just before I came along.
Fortunately, for most airport in Canada, Canadian crews can go through a special bypass where IDs are checked against a master list. Some will then scan all your stuff, and others will do a random search. A good system. Going through US Airports all the time would drive me nuts.
As crew, I never hurry. If they want to go through all my stuff, I take my time and fold coat/jacket carefully before putting them in the tray for scanning, etc. Same thing at the other end. In the US when shoes have to be put on, I take my time and if it holds others up, too bad! I'm not looking like an idiot hopping around with shoelaces undone trying to get out of everybody's way. If they yell at me or otherwise upset me, I'm going for a leisurely coffee to regain my composure before going to the cockpit.
Another thing. If security are going to do a manual search of my belongings, they better have gloves on ... I insist on it. They don't like it, but tough. Who knows where their hands have been or what they have been handling just before I came along.
Fortunately, for most airport in Canada, Canadian crews can go through a special bypass where IDs are checked against a master list. Some will then scan all your stuff, and others will do a random search. A good system. Going through US Airports all the time would drive me nuts.
ZYX
You may believe you have a greater knowledge of what goes on behingd the scenes than the rest of us, and you may well do. But it is and has to be a joke when security staff spend 10 minutes carry out a "trace detection test" on a flight attendant walking with the rest of the crew, passengers allowed to proceed through unhindered. This is at a small port were the security people recognise most crew as we go through there at least once a week.
Arrive at aircraft to find catering people, unscreened sitting in a business class seat reading newspaper while waiting for delayed crew.
Engineers can and some would bring anything you liked to the aircraft for you, again unscreened as would baggage handlers.
So if you belive all is wonderful and we are not aware of whats going on explain how that makes any sense.
The qualifications for security people in Australia is the same qualification as the one rrequired to work as a bouncer at a night club.
It is a joke!
Arrive at aircraft to find catering people, unscreened sitting in a business class seat reading newspaper while waiting for delayed crew.
Engineers can and some would bring anything you liked to the aircraft for you, again unscreened as would baggage handlers.
So if you belive all is wonderful and we are not aware of whats going on explain how that makes any sense.
The qualifications for security people in Australia is the same qualification as the one rrequired to work as a bouncer at a night club.
It is a joke!
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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In my 30 odd years of flying around various airports of the world I have seen vast differences in security standards and their application. Obviously the tragic events past have caused a major rethink of the subject, nevertheless we all seem to forget that the common element here is the human being. It matters not a toss what profession you are in - you will always find the arrogant, egotistical, inconsiderate, rude inflexible characters - in this case both sides of the barrier(both gender & security)! You have to remember that more often than not the security staff are only implementing the policy decided upon from up above(ie aiport management) and invariably it is those people who interpret the DofE rules differently which is why there are discrepancies from airport to airport.
It is true there are some who are perhaps overly enthusiastic with their authority but in my experience they are the minority. As has already been said, tolerance and politeness go 99% of the way to ensuring a less stressful path to the a/c. Besides, without all the anecdotes what else would we find to discuss! One of my favourites occurred on deployment to the Gulf from Brize Norton where we were made to put our weapons through the XRay - sorry what do you expect to find hidden in a gun; another gun? Personally I always travel with a leatherman(as crew) and it has never caused a problem and my best weapon against jobsworths is calmness & composure.
Fly Safe
It is true there are some who are perhaps overly enthusiastic with their authority but in my experience they are the minority. As has already been said, tolerance and politeness go 99% of the way to ensuring a less stressful path to the a/c. Besides, without all the anecdotes what else would we find to discuss! One of my favourites occurred on deployment to the Gulf from Brize Norton where we were made to put our weapons through the XRay - sorry what do you expect to find hidden in a gun; another gun? Personally I always travel with a leatherman(as crew) and it has never caused a problem and my best weapon against jobsworths is calmness & composure.
Fly Safe
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if security were that, then we would not have all tese upset people. it is just one great big shabai[joke] that does nothing but show joe q public some window dressing. now tsa is upset because crowds of people are gathering for security checks[mind you now, they made this mess] and are worried terroist wil strike there next. when in god's name will somebody get a real program of security?
With the greatest of respect, I think ZYX was trying to gently point out that the daily security pantomime you are asked to participate in has a slightly different purpose than its more obvious purpose.
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its somthing us pilots are going to have to keep contantaly hounding people to get this changed. i bet that soon there even goin to scan GA pilots, like far enough you got to check the pilot out just incase its a person dressing up as a pilot but if the security see the pilot all the time well of course hes the pilot and should be able to just walk on threw the gates without a problem. thats what lacks in this world is comon sence. its costing time and money.
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hercboy
Just playing Devil's Advocate;
Have you considered the implications of your statement
What about the day when his family are being held hostage under fear of death and he is instructed to carry a 'package' airside due to his 'obviously known status' and ability to 'just walk through the gates'?
Security is all about risk assessment and minimalisation of that risk. Layers of effective security means the target moves lower down the target list of the terrorists as they want to go for the biggest impact with the least risk of failure. They seek the security loopholes that give them the chance of success that they want. Whilst I agree that current security policies can seem a little pointless in certain cases (like removing nail clippers from a flight deck crew member), others are not quite so pointless. It is always a balancing act between having enough layers to be effective/ what is acceptable/ and inconvenience caused.
Be careful and think a little deeper about the implications of your suggestions with regards to security and you might find that what seems benal at first may actually make a little more sense than you thought.
PP
Just playing Devil's Advocate;
Have you considered the implications of your statement
you got to check the pilot out just incase its a person dressing up as a pilot but if the security see the pilot all the time well of course hes the pilot and should be able to just walk on threw the gates without a problem
Security is all about risk assessment and minimalisation of that risk. Layers of effective security means the target moves lower down the target list of the terrorists as they want to go for the biggest impact with the least risk of failure. They seek the security loopholes that give them the chance of success that they want. Whilst I agree that current security policies can seem a little pointless in certain cases (like removing nail clippers from a flight deck crew member), others are not quite so pointless. It is always a balancing act between having enough layers to be effective/ what is acceptable/ and inconvenience caused.
Be careful and think a little deeper about the implications of your suggestions with regards to security and you might find that what seems benal at first may actually make a little more sense than you thought.
PP
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Renurp, it is worse than a joke. The authorities promise us safety in flying on the airlines if we submit to their control ("You don't accept it, you don't fly"). They KNOW they are ineffective. One example: there is no armed response available in the security area, so that if they ever did apprehend a real terrorist in the security line, they could do nothing about it. Even if there was an odd policeman with a weapon standing around, he could not shoot the terrorist without killing other passengers or provoking the terrorist to unleash his weapons. When this farce started, they at least had the National Guard posted in the security halls, even though their weapons were unloaded. Those guys were totally bored and had to be pulled out because even then they knew there was no chance they would ever be needed, nor could they be effective in such a crowded, chaotic environment. More proof? In LAX a Crazy (not a terrorist or at least not in the definition we use) shot up a lot of passengers at the El Al counter. The only way he was stopped was by private security guards; the authorities had no procedure to stop this type of attack and still don't, hence their bleating now about the "crowds".
And the TSA is complaining about manpower, wanting to fire more of their staff (of course only the security checkers, not the supervisors or off-airport police who get the big bucks). When the available checkers have to use random or computer-generated screening, and be seen to be "doing their job" (ie hassling innocent passengers and crew) it is impossible for them to be effective. They simply don't have time to do what they should be doing, which is identifying the real threats and mounting protections against them. El Al manages to do it quite successfully, while the rest of us simply go through the motions.
And I repeat; if security only applies to the 'front door' (crew and passengers) while the rest of the airport staff and workers get a free pass, it is completely worthless.
Promising us that they are making us safe, while doing nothing effective, is a lie and we are fools if we accept it.
And the TSA is complaining about manpower, wanting to fire more of their staff (of course only the security checkers, not the supervisors or off-airport police who get the big bucks). When the available checkers have to use random or computer-generated screening, and be seen to be "doing their job" (ie hassling innocent passengers and crew) it is impossible for them to be effective. They simply don't have time to do what they should be doing, which is identifying the real threats and mounting protections against them. El Al manages to do it quite successfully, while the rest of us simply go through the motions.
And I repeat; if security only applies to the 'front door' (crew and passengers) while the rest of the airport staff and workers get a free pass, it is completely worthless.
Promising us that they are making us safe, while doing nothing effective, is a lie and we are fools if we accept it.
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Few Cloudy
I don't think that anybody intent on this kind of thing would have learnt anything from what I posted..........as the idea of not searching people going airside as they are 'known' will not be happening.
PP
I don't think that anybody intent on this kind of thing would have learnt anything from what I posted..........as the idea of not searching people going airside as they are 'known' will not be happening.
PP
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I have just read this thread from the beging as it is a subject that rally p*sses me off. There are many good comments here and a few naieve ones as well The one that knocked me off my perch was the one about "airside being sterile"!
The lack of sterility airside is the weakest link in the security chain! Engineers, especially, carry all manner of objects onto aircraft that flight crew are barred from carrying through "security", Leathermans, Swiss Army Knives, screwdrivers and all sorts of other blades that they require for their work. I have been told that one airline has installed Leatherman tools in their flight decks for the use of the crew since they can now no longer carry their own!
This b*llsh*t of having to go through the same security as pax is demeaning for a crew; to have to strip off jackets, belts, watches and shoes in front of pax I find embarrasing. If we must do this then all airports should have a seperate area only for crew.
I find it hard to believe that in this day and age that the average passenger really believes that, when they see us being harrassed by the "secuity staff", they are saffer. Every one knows about the flight deck door, which is another subject but I will touch on here briefly.
One has to wonder if the suspected suicide of the Egypt Air F/O had taken place post 9/11, and he had locked himself onto the flight deck, whether the authorities would have then torn them out!
Anyway my rant is over and I will just say that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link!
The lack of sterility airside is the weakest link in the security chain! Engineers, especially, carry all manner of objects onto aircraft that flight crew are barred from carrying through "security", Leathermans, Swiss Army Knives, screwdrivers and all sorts of other blades that they require for their work. I have been told that one airline has installed Leatherman tools in their flight decks for the use of the crew since they can now no longer carry their own!
This b*llsh*t of having to go through the same security as pax is demeaning for a crew; to have to strip off jackets, belts, watches and shoes in front of pax I find embarrasing. If we must do this then all airports should have a seperate area only for crew.
I find it hard to believe that in this day and age that the average passenger really believes that, when they see us being harrassed by the "secuity staff", they are saffer. Every one knows about the flight deck door, which is another subject but I will touch on here briefly.
One has to wonder if the suspected suicide of the Egypt Air F/O had taken place post 9/11, and he had locked himself onto the flight deck, whether the authorities would have then torn them out!
Anyway my rant is over and I will just say that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link!
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Another recent example of the window dressing not working............The multiple "Armed with firearms" hi jackers of an armoured truck on the "SECURE" airside at Schiphol who then drove it off the airport. What a joke! Always knew that the air crew security check that was visible for passing Pax's to see was a PR effort. Now will they start screening the cleaners , caterer's engineers using the same standard they use on aircrew?
Would love to fix your airplane but the paper work for the screwdriver is not yet approved.
Would love to fix your airplane but the paper work for the screwdriver is not yet approved.
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Hogwash wrote:
Why is it demeaning that passengers can see you going through a security check? Are you worried about them seeing you go in to the restroom too?
What is embarrassing with current state of security is that it is little more than a show for the well behaved passengers. Anyone with intent to create harm will have little more trouble than a few years ago.
I believe that anyone asked to step through the metal detectors three times find it frustrating. If you then know a little bit about the full picture doesn’t help but in no way does that excuse anyone from refusing to go through again and just leave.
If the pilot did as was alleged in the beginning of this thread then he is not fit for his position. Nor are the persons who allow someone to walk away and don’t apprehend her in the next few moments. That he was allowed not only to enter the plane but also had time to taxi out is a sad confirmation of the current state.
This b*llsh*t of having to go through the same security as pax is demeaning for a crew
What is embarrassing with current state of security is that it is little more than a show for the well behaved passengers. Anyone with intent to create harm will have little more trouble than a few years ago.
I believe that anyone asked to step through the metal detectors three times find it frustrating. If you then know a little bit about the full picture doesn’t help but in no way does that excuse anyone from refusing to go through again and just leave.
If the pilot did as was alleged in the beginning of this thread then he is not fit for his position. Nor are the persons who allow someone to walk away and don’t apprehend her in the next few moments. That he was allowed not only to enter the plane but also had time to taxi out is a sad confirmation of the current state.