Ryanair launches legal action against pilots' union (merged)
L'enfant Terrible
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The bar of Mumbles rugby club
Age: 42
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correction noted. The next question of course being from whom, or indeed whence, you expect to conjur this productivity. A Dublin workforce seemingly the recipients of a declaration of war? Stripped (rather publicly) of increases whilst expected to produce yet more for their lords and masters.
Hardly a shining beacon of motivational management? At least the Dublin crews can seek solace in the fact that this despotic style of operation, by precedent, eventually leads to corporate failure.
Hardly a shining beacon of motivational management? At least the Dublin crews can seek solace in the fact that this despotic style of operation, by precedent, eventually leads to corporate failure.
L'enfant Terrible
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The bar of Mumbles rugby club
Age: 42
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fortunately my shoulders are broad enough to bear the failure tag. As for ignoramus, well I'll accept the judgement of my peers (and betters) on this board for whom I at least reserve a modicum of respect.
As for an application to FR, you'll be pleased to know that I've no requirement to slump that low for the foreseeable future. Unlike many of my less fortunate colleagues who are compelled to place themselves under your charming command, I find myself in a more enviable position. To be quite frank old chap, I don't much fancy the pay cut.
As for an application to FR, you'll be pleased to know that I've no requirement to slump that low for the foreseeable future. Unlike many of my less fortunate colleagues who are compelled to place themselves under your charming command, I find myself in a more enviable position. To be quite frank old chap, I don't much fancy the pay cut.
"Its the blatantly false sickie taker that we seek to address, not those who, for whatever reason, are unwell or unfit."
Interesting to note the use of the word we, LH-C..... Bit of a slip, perhaps?
Frankly, my dear Leo, I wouldn't fly on that nasty little airline if you paid me to......
Interesting to note the use of the word we, LH-C..... Bit of a slip, perhaps?
Frankly, my dear Leo, I wouldn't fly on that nasty little airline if you paid me to......
L'enfant Terrible
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The bar of Mumbles rugby club
Age: 42
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The job request remains extant LHC, but fortunately there's a difference between a want and a need in my case.
Whilst I want a professional flying job, I have no need to associate myself with an airline prepared to treat its crews in such a grubby manner.
Whilst I want a professional flying job, I have no need to associate myself with an airline prepared to treat its crews in such a grubby manner.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lies, damned lies, statistics and, to cap it all, "Ryanair Truth"
Leo the Hairy says
Well that just ain’t so. You guys just tell a version of the truth that suits you. Let me first remind you what exactly the company wide policy was in early 2004, as outlined in your widely used memo to those who were sick 3 or more times:
Now, here is a copy (somewhat changed to protect the source) of a document sent to a crew member in the course of 2005:
This kinda looks like an "investigatory meeting" that has disciplinarly implications. But if you have yet to hold a hearing, how can the disciplinary thing creep in?
Of course both of these documents have nothing to do with sickness and lots to do with intimidating employees to stop being sick.
Any person with the barest grasp of how people behave will know from those two documents that people go to work in Ryanair who should not. And they most certainly do so, because that is your intention.
The pay situation might be worth discussing next. It turns out that FR pilots are actually on much worse T&Cs than you want to admit. What is it you say .... "best rosters, best pay in Europe". Utter, utter nonsense.
Its the blatantly false sickie taker that we seek to address, not those who, for whatever reason, are unwell or unfit.
Over the past year over 10,000 days have been lost through absenteeism in RYANAIR; which equates to 7 un-crewed aircraft every day, all year around!!!
Your attendance record shows that you have been absent from work on [ 3..4..5, etc.] occasions during the last 12 months. This high frequency of absence cannot be sustained, as other people within your area have to pick up additional work in your absence.
All absences in the future will be closely monitored and, I need to see a dramatic and sustained improvement in your attendance in the months ahead.
Please confirm receipt of this letter and measures you will take to eliminate further absence from work. If you have any queries on the above please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely,
Your attendance record shows that you have been absent from work on [ 3..4..5, etc.] occasions during the last 12 months. This high frequency of absence cannot be sustained, as other people within your area have to pick up additional work in your absence.
All absences in the future will be closely monitored and, I need to see a dramatic and sustained improvement in your attendance in the months ahead.
Please confirm receipt of this letter and measures you will take to eliminate further absence from work. If you have any queries on the above please do not hesitate to contact me.
Yours sincerely,
I would like you to attend a meeting with personnel on XX/XX/05. This will be an investigative meeting into your high level of absenteeism. In the past year you have been absent from work on 3 separate occasions. This meeting will be an opportunity for you to put your case across. The full disciplinary process is detailed in the copy of the rough guide to Ryanair.
You may if you wish bring a work colleague along with you at this meeting. I must also advise you that it is your duty to ensure that your colleague can attend.
You may if you wish bring a work colleague along with you at this meeting. I must also advise you that it is your duty to ensure that your colleague can attend.
Of course both of these documents have nothing to do with sickness and lots to do with intimidating employees to stop being sick.
Any person with the barest grasp of how people behave will know from those two documents that people go to work in Ryanair who should not. And they most certainly do so, because that is your intention.
The pay situation might be worth discussing next. It turns out that FR pilots are actually on much worse T&Cs than you want to admit. What is it you say .... "best rosters, best pay in Europe". Utter, utter nonsense.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leo Hairy Camel:
Just a casual observation from an outside observer. Careful how you tread. Up to a couple of years ago I largely admired what Ryanair was doing. Carving fat off the airline industry was commendable and has, as you've seen, generated a massive industrial change - largely for the better. Naysayers notwithstanding, Ryanair does have - demonstrably - one of the (if not the) finest on-time reliability rates in the industry - in short haul that's what counts - people just want to get somewhere cheap. Really has in many ways become a service to the community - sounds corny but 'tis much easier to get around now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Most of all that has been accomplished thru rational (tho at the time seemingly radical) adjustments.
I know the market has been a tough one, and survival (and thriving) in said market, requires tough measures, but I have to say - again as a casual observer - that latest moves seriously erode the workplace environment. Ryanair has always said that they pattern their business plan on Southwest's. Maybe in terms of infrastructure, but one of the things that made Southwest strong, was the loyalty bond - and it went both ways - between Herb Kelleher and his staff. They would literally work for free for him - as I suspect you know - because they knew he would do the same for them. You may say this is complete slop, but that's the way the world can and does work best these days. Tactics and working relationships which belong more to the days of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle (try it, it's a good read) are not a medium to long term fix in todays market. Might work in the short term, but hopefully that's not what you're interested in.
Main point - cutting the fat was great and allowed Ryanair to mushroom on the European stage. Well done. But going beyond that - cutting into the muscle, sinew and bone of your company - that's simply counterproductive. Needs a rethink 'cause sounds like a case of "point of diminishing returns", and nobody involved with Ryanair needs/wants that do they?
If you want to run faster and jump higher you don't indulge in "self injury" eh?
ROR
Just a casual observation from an outside observer. Careful how you tread. Up to a couple of years ago I largely admired what Ryanair was doing. Carving fat off the airline industry was commendable and has, as you've seen, generated a massive industrial change - largely for the better. Naysayers notwithstanding, Ryanair does have - demonstrably - one of the (if not the) finest on-time reliability rates in the industry - in short haul that's what counts - people just want to get somewhere cheap. Really has in many ways become a service to the community - sounds corny but 'tis much easier to get around now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Most of all that has been accomplished thru rational (tho at the time seemingly radical) adjustments.
I know the market has been a tough one, and survival (and thriving) in said market, requires tough measures, but I have to say - again as a casual observer - that latest moves seriously erode the workplace environment. Ryanair has always said that they pattern their business plan on Southwest's. Maybe in terms of infrastructure, but one of the things that made Southwest strong, was the loyalty bond - and it went both ways - between Herb Kelleher and his staff. They would literally work for free for him - as I suspect you know - because they knew he would do the same for them. You may say this is complete slop, but that's the way the world can and does work best these days. Tactics and working relationships which belong more to the days of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle (try it, it's a good read) are not a medium to long term fix in todays market. Might work in the short term, but hopefully that's not what you're interested in.
Main point - cutting the fat was great and allowed Ryanair to mushroom on the European stage. Well done. But going beyond that - cutting into the muscle, sinew and bone of your company - that's simply counterproductive. Needs a rethink 'cause sounds like a case of "point of diminishing returns", and nobody involved with Ryanair needs/wants that do they?
If you want to run faster and jump higher you don't indulge in "self injury" eh?
ROR
Last edited by Kelso; 28th Feb 2005 at 00:16.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Planet Earth for a short visit
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M O L
L O C
if it is indeed you ,which I doubt. Take your money and run. Run long and far, very far Forrest, cos one day people you have royally made love to will catch you up! Best wishes, someone who was lucky enough not to be employed by you whilst you raped the industry. MOL rot in a stinking pit.
if it is indeed you ,which I doubt. Take your money and run. Run long and far, very far Forrest, cos one day people you have royally made love to will catch you up! Best wishes, someone who was lucky enough not to be employed by you whilst you raped the industry. MOL rot in a stinking pit.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair being on-time and reliable
Kelso,
if I fly between airports like Frankfurt-Hahn (which is not even close to Frankfurt) and no-name Airports somewhere in a 200 km vicinity of Milano, no wonder I have a high on-time rate..
Try accomplishing that between CDG, LHR & FRA.. and that´s where the people get off who really need to be on time.
Sorry for getting a little off-topic...
if I fly between airports like Frankfurt-Hahn (which is not even close to Frankfurt) and no-name Airports somewhere in a 200 km vicinity of Milano, no wonder I have a high on-time rate..
Try accomplishing that between CDG, LHR & FRA.. and that´s where the people get off who really need to be on time.
Sorry for getting a little off-topic...
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: universe
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure where your thread came from or where it's going. Pilots and unions don't mix very well because of the selfishness that goes with the territory. Take a look at Ryanair, the pilot group sold everything to the company out of greed and now when they realise their mistake it's too late. When you ask a pilot to do something the FIRST thing he says is NO, the SECOND thing he says is HOW MUCH!! That goes for selling his soul and for joining a union!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The word from Dublin seems to be that IALPA won come kind of a court victory yesterday (Monday). Apparently this was the Captain Goss case and the judge was critical of Ryanair. I have asked for more info and will post it when it arrives.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
L H-C can run, but can't hide
Word from Dublin is that he might well have deleted his posts after receiving legal advice about what is going to happen next. It would appear that Ryanair will have some searching questions to answer at a forthcoming High Court action in Dublin.
Either lies will be told, or we will discover the web identities of certain Ryanair figures. More importantly, we are going to see penetrating questions asked of Ryanair managers. Well..... that's what they are saying from Dublin (but not supplying anything hard by way of evidence which I had asked for. Anybody got any press info, etc. to provide?
Either lies will be told, or we will discover the web identities of certain Ryanair figures. More importantly, we are going to see penetrating questions asked of Ryanair managers. Well..... that's what they are saying from Dublin (but not supplying anything hard by way of evidence which I had asked for. Anybody got any press info, etc. to provide?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Message To The Boss Of Ryanair
I will not address you by name as you do not no mine. I will however give you the respect that a human being, whatever their status should be given.
My childhood was surrounded with poverty and violence. Myself, my five brothers and sisters lived in a rat ridden, one bedroomed house. It was a motherless home and food on the table was a rarity. I had to steal for food to feed my little brother and I was constantly in and out of the arms of the Law. I was one of the lucky ones. It taught me the principles of life and the importence of treating your neighbours in the way you would like to be treated. It taught me how to be happy and how to make others smile.
I remember one day with my little brother Jimmy sitting on the top of Aurther Seat. We had just been released from the local police cell and we were watching the aeroplanes landing at Edinburgh Airport. I remember saying to Jimmy that I was going to fly one day. We left the hill top with are arms stretched out wide, running down the hill making aeroplane noises as we went.
Time continued on and it was while I was working in a saw mill, tonguing and grooving deck boards for ships that my whole life changed. Inside my paypacket was double the amount I should have been paid with a letter explaining why. It read....
"Dear ........,
Please accept this as a token of my appreciation for all your hard work and dedication over the last two years. I know that your dream to be a pilot is of great importance and I would like to help you on your way. My observation of your caring nature and your willingness to help others before yourself has made me realise that I would like to be more like you. I am in the fortunate position to assist you financially in your quest and this extra assistance will continue untill you reach your goal. Good luck with your endeavours.
Your friend and boss,
Jock".
My flying was of great importance and still is today, however it takes a second place when friends, family and people are involved. It is the only way to live your life.
My guess is that you are in business to make money. It is obvious to all that you care about nobody. It is also my guess you are a very unhappy man and that is the reason you treat people with contempt. You are in a privileged position to do so much good in the world and earn alot of respect from the people that surround you. Your status as a more influential person, could change real problems. Your rewards would be great and so much more satisfying than maintaining the status quo. I was told by my father never to try to find happiness in money. The answer is found in helping others that can't help themselves and not treading on people just because you can.
Is it not possible to have a re-think in the manner in which you conduct your business? Is it not possible to stop abusing people because you can? Don't you have a dream? Don't you want to go to bed at night in the knowledge that every Pilot in the country wants to work for Ryanair? Don't you want to go down in history for all the good reasons? You still have time to change the labeling that will follow you to the grave. Let this be a defining moment and let this first day of March be the start of something great for all in Aviation.
My childhood was surrounded with poverty and violence. Myself, my five brothers and sisters lived in a rat ridden, one bedroomed house. It was a motherless home and food on the table was a rarity. I had to steal for food to feed my little brother and I was constantly in and out of the arms of the Law. I was one of the lucky ones. It taught me the principles of life and the importence of treating your neighbours in the way you would like to be treated. It taught me how to be happy and how to make others smile.
I remember one day with my little brother Jimmy sitting on the top of Aurther Seat. We had just been released from the local police cell and we were watching the aeroplanes landing at Edinburgh Airport. I remember saying to Jimmy that I was going to fly one day. We left the hill top with are arms stretched out wide, running down the hill making aeroplane noises as we went.
Time continued on and it was while I was working in a saw mill, tonguing and grooving deck boards for ships that my whole life changed. Inside my paypacket was double the amount I should have been paid with a letter explaining why. It read....
"Dear ........,
Please accept this as a token of my appreciation for all your hard work and dedication over the last two years. I know that your dream to be a pilot is of great importance and I would like to help you on your way. My observation of your caring nature and your willingness to help others before yourself has made me realise that I would like to be more like you. I am in the fortunate position to assist you financially in your quest and this extra assistance will continue untill you reach your goal. Good luck with your endeavours.
Your friend and boss,
Jock".
My flying was of great importance and still is today, however it takes a second place when friends, family and people are involved. It is the only way to live your life.
My guess is that you are in business to make money. It is obvious to all that you care about nobody. It is also my guess you are a very unhappy man and that is the reason you treat people with contempt. You are in a privileged position to do so much good in the world and earn alot of respect from the people that surround you. Your status as a more influential person, could change real problems. Your rewards would be great and so much more satisfying than maintaining the status quo. I was told by my father never to try to find happiness in money. The answer is found in helping others that can't help themselves and not treading on people just because you can.
Is it not possible to have a re-think in the manner in which you conduct your business? Is it not possible to stop abusing people because you can? Don't you have a dream? Don't you want to go to bed at night in the knowledge that every Pilot in the country wants to work for Ryanair? Don't you want to go down in history for all the good reasons? You still have time to change the labeling that will follow you to the grave. Let this be a defining moment and let this first day of March be the start of something great for all in Aviation.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a load of old tosh.
MICHAEL O'LEARY HAS DONE MORE TO BRING FAMILIES CLOSER TOGETHER THAN ANY IRISHMAN OF HIS GENERATION.
Ryanair have invented the European low cost airline model.
I say hats-off to O'Leary!
Ultimately the market will decide how much a pilot is worth, just the way the market has decided how much a plane ticket is worth.
Discuss.
MICHAEL O'LEARY HAS DONE MORE TO BRING FAMILIES CLOSER TOGETHER THAN ANY IRISHMAN OF HIS GENERATION.
Ryanair have invented the European low cost airline model.
I say hats-off to O'Leary!
Ultimately the market will decide how much a pilot is worth, just the way the market has decided how much a plane ticket is worth.
Discuss.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There you go, Hudson Bay, you get part of the answer. Some people actually find it normal to be treated the O'Leary way, and some actually like it. Some of the tyrants of this century have been democratically elected, after all.
Oh, if that's the problem, you can go have a look in a mine in China to see the ultimate answer of how much the life of a man is worth. Does it make it right?
Ultimately the market will decide how much a pilot is worth, just the way the market has decided how much a plane ticket is worth