Ryanair launches legal action against pilots' union (merged)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Up, up and away
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair/REPA News
From someone entirely unconnected with the dispute, but shocked.
From http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?...0811&area=news
An Irish judge has awarded Ryanair an injunction to prevent the destruction of web site user data in a court battle over the identities of its pilots who criticised the airline's working practices in an on-line forum for Ryanair pilots, according to The Guardian.
The forum belongs to the Ryanair European Pilots’ Association (REPA), a body set up last October by the two largest pilot organisations with members flying with the company, the British Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA) and the Irish Airline Pilots’ Association (IALPA).
The Guardian reports that the site operators have been ordered not to destroy the codenames of the pilots who made the comments which, according to Ryanair, included posts from pilots suggesting "criminal activity" against the airline and its employees.
The unions yesterday accused Ryanair of attacking free speech.
From: The Guardian Online
http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/new...448262,00.html
Ryanair draws first blood in battle over pilots' web attack
Andrew Clark
Wednesday March 30, 2005
The Guardian
Pilots' leaders have accused Ryanair of an extraordinary attack on free speech in a high court battle over a website that contains anonymous criticisms of the airline by some of its employees.
The Irish low-cost carrier is trying to unmask the identity of pilots responsible for controversial remarks about its working practices on a message board run jointly by the British and Irish pilots' unions.
Ryanair has drawn first blood by securing an injunction from a Dublin judge that bans the unions from destroying the codenames used by pi lots on the Ryanair European Pilots' Association's website.
Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa), said: "We shall vigorously defend our position in refusing to divulge names of pilots who discuss with one another their problems and aspirations."
Pilots' unions are furious with Ryanair over its handling of training for pilots moving from older jets to new Boeing 737-800s, which have been introduced to modernise the airline's fleet.
Balpa claims pilots are being forced to pay the cost of retraining, with little alternative available to them other than redundancy.
Ryanair denies this. It says crew are merely being asked to sign five-year "bonds" which require them to pay back training costs if they leave the company.
It says the unions' website is being used to "threaten and intimidate" pilots who take up the offer of retraining and insists that it has not threat ened refusenik staff with redundancy.
Union leaders say confidentiality is crucial in the aviation industry. They point out that pilots use online forums to report safety concerns. If anonymity is jeopardised concerns may never be aired.
Ryanair has fought a series of battles over online message boards. Last year, an independent pilots' website deleted a thread containing comments about the airline following a threat of legal action.
Unions have attacked the airline for forcing trainee staff to pay for uniforms and for refusing to give them free in-flight meals.
Ryanair's director of personnel, Eddie Wilson, said the website had included posts from pilots suggesting "criminal activity" against the airline and its employees.
"We will not under any circumstances allow any of our pilots or people to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation," Mr Wilson said.
From http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?...0811&area=news
An Irish judge has awarded Ryanair an injunction to prevent the destruction of web site user data in a court battle over the identities of its pilots who criticised the airline's working practices in an on-line forum for Ryanair pilots, according to The Guardian.
The forum belongs to the Ryanair European Pilots’ Association (REPA), a body set up last October by the two largest pilot organisations with members flying with the company, the British Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA) and the Irish Airline Pilots’ Association (IALPA).
The Guardian reports that the site operators have been ordered not to destroy the codenames of the pilots who made the comments which, according to Ryanair, included posts from pilots suggesting "criminal activity" against the airline and its employees.
The unions yesterday accused Ryanair of attacking free speech.
From: The Guardian Online
http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/new...448262,00.html
Ryanair draws first blood in battle over pilots' web attack
Andrew Clark
Wednesday March 30, 2005
The Guardian
Pilots' leaders have accused Ryanair of an extraordinary attack on free speech in a high court battle over a website that contains anonymous criticisms of the airline by some of its employees.
The Irish low-cost carrier is trying to unmask the identity of pilots responsible for controversial remarks about its working practices on a message board run jointly by the British and Irish pilots' unions.
Ryanair has drawn first blood by securing an injunction from a Dublin judge that bans the unions from destroying the codenames used by pi lots on the Ryanair European Pilots' Association's website.
Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa), said: "We shall vigorously defend our position in refusing to divulge names of pilots who discuss with one another their problems and aspirations."
Pilots' unions are furious with Ryanair over its handling of training for pilots moving from older jets to new Boeing 737-800s, which have been introduced to modernise the airline's fleet.
Balpa claims pilots are being forced to pay the cost of retraining, with little alternative available to them other than redundancy.
Ryanair denies this. It says crew are merely being asked to sign five-year "bonds" which require them to pay back training costs if they leave the company.
It says the unions' website is being used to "threaten and intimidate" pilots who take up the offer of retraining and insists that it has not threat ened refusenik staff with redundancy.
Union leaders say confidentiality is crucial in the aviation industry. They point out that pilots use online forums to report safety concerns. If anonymity is jeopardised concerns may never be aired.
Ryanair has fought a series of battles over online message boards. Last year, an independent pilots' website deleted a thread containing comments about the airline following a threat of legal action.
Unions have attacked the airline for forcing trainee staff to pay for uniforms and for refusing to give them free in-flight meals.
Ryanair's director of personnel, Eddie Wilson, said the website had included posts from pilots suggesting "criminal activity" against the airline and its employees.
"We will not under any circumstances allow any of our pilots or people to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation," Mr Wilson said.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, that just shows they are reading what we say.
So, read this MOL:
THERE IS A PILOT SHORTAGE. YOU WILL HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS BY LEANING OVER.
ORDERING NEW AIRCRAFT WILL ONLY MAKE SENSE IF YOU CAN CREW THEM.
WAKE UP, SMELL THE COFFE.
YOURS - THE PILOTS
So, read this MOL:
THERE IS A PILOT SHORTAGE. YOU WILL HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS BY LEANING OVER.
ORDERING NEW AIRCRAFT WILL ONLY MAKE SENSE IF YOU CAN CREW THEM.
WAKE UP, SMELL THE COFFE.
YOURS - THE PILOTS
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the above articles are a bit misleading. In an article in yesterday's Irish Times (titled "who is Leo Hairy Camel") Mr. O'Leary made it clear that they were only looking for the names of particular pilots and he was quoted as saying:
"Are we looking for the other names? No. We couldn't give a ****e."
Nontheless, this matter is becoming quite interesting for all sorts of reasons and I have now learned that this is apparently a "normal" way of doing business for Ryanair.
"Are we looking for the other names? No. We couldn't give a ****e."
Nontheless, this matter is becoming quite interesting for all sorts of reasons and I have now learned that this is apparently a "normal" way of doing business for Ryanair.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Timbuktu
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just did a 'Whois' search on REPAWEB.ORG and I see the Domain name is registered to BALPA, and hosted by "kdawebservices.com" a UK base Hosting company.
Surely it would have saved all this Hairyarsing about if the designers had just registered it to an off-shore entity, and hosted it outside the jurisdiction? That would've saved us all a lot of wasted time and money.
Surely it would have saved all this Hairyarsing about if the designers had just registered it to an off-shore entity, and hosted it outside the jurisdiction? That would've saved us all a lot of wasted time and money.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Somewhere between here and there....
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
POLICE maybe so, but having coffee on board is the least of RYR's problems. I'd say with a shed load of shiny new -800's being delivered, and already being down some 70 or so crew members, I'd say their real problems are just about to start. MOL once said there would be some low cost airlines going bust in a so-called bloodbath. Growth is one thing. Sustaining it is another.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: right behind you
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
leo,
you can really stir up a hornets nest,i thought you were pretty good at giving the other side.but on april 2nd at 1750 you bombed out my man.crying to the moderator is not so cool.
i do defend your right to say your piece even if i don't agree with ALL of it.keep posting.i am amazed by the onesidedness of this thread.leo seems to be the only one on the defence.
what if ryanair get the names of repa members,then through precedence,all anonymous websites even pprune are there for the taking.
you can really stir up a hornets nest,i thought you were pretty good at giving the other side.but on april 2nd at 1750 you bombed out my man.crying to the moderator is not so cool.
i do defend your right to say your piece even if i don't agree with ALL of it.keep posting.i am amazed by the onesidedness of this thread.leo seems to be the only one on the defence.
what if ryanair get the names of repa members,then through precedence,all anonymous websites even pprune are there for the taking.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brigg
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although about 5 days ago, may I make a small response to DFC, which will expand to a generalisation so nothing personal DFC.
Many people go in through the front door, following an interview, expecting the job to be as described. When it does not turn out that way...what then? I worked for a firm once and was to work every other Saturday, confirmed at interview. Once I joined i was told I had to work every Saturday, which b##gred my weekend and lost me the most wonderful woman I ever knew.
But that is life today (could I return to my previous firm -haha, could I negotiate -response "there's the door, if you don't like it").
That made me bitter. Did not affect my professionalism, but it hurt. The Boss didn't give a s##t providing the money rolled in, staff welfare did not exist, no pension, health care etc but the Boss lived in a mansion and had 3 personalised cars, one for him, one for his wife and one for his daughter.
I just despise this face of business, it is the worst excesses of capitalism -not that I am a socialist!!
And Mr O'L before you say "our prices are only £0.25 one way", I have seen the website and tried to book at this price...no chance, must have missed the seat...everytime.
Many people go in through the front door, following an interview, expecting the job to be as described. When it does not turn out that way...what then? I worked for a firm once and was to work every other Saturday, confirmed at interview. Once I joined i was told I had to work every Saturday, which b##gred my weekend and lost me the most wonderful woman I ever knew.
But that is life today (could I return to my previous firm -haha, could I negotiate -response "there's the door, if you don't like it").
That made me bitter. Did not affect my professionalism, but it hurt. The Boss didn't give a s##t providing the money rolled in, staff welfare did not exist, no pension, health care etc but the Boss lived in a mansion and had 3 personalised cars, one for him, one for his wife and one for his daughter.
I just despise this face of business, it is the worst excesses of capitalism -not that I am a socialist!!
And Mr O'L before you say "our prices are only £0.25 one way", I have seen the website and tried to book at this price...no chance, must have missed the seat...everytime.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Timbuktu
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what if ryanair get the names of repa members,then through precedence,all anonymous websites even pprune are there for the taking.
Its what Yahoo was invented for.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HairyCamel
Ryanair management appears sluggish in attempting to re-evaluate courses of action...
In this way we see Mr. Hairy-Camel cornering himself, proving even more than ever that there is no fixed, ideal terms and conditions offered to employees...
We also see how the actions of last year now ride out their effects, once the months have passed allowing job applications, interviews, offers, and training placements to take place...
Unfortunately for Ryanair, any reaction to be gauged in this industry isn't instantaneous, yet it does move with great momentum...
Pilots are leaving. Cabin crew are leaving. Yet new aircraft are arriving...
Any move today would be too little too late, and a storm is brewing which all within Ryanair will have to bear...
In this way we see Mr. Hairy-Camel cornering himself, proving even more than ever that there is no fixed, ideal terms and conditions offered to employees...
We also see how the actions of last year now ride out their effects, once the months have passed allowing job applications, interviews, offers, and training placements to take place...
Unfortunately for Ryanair, any reaction to be gauged in this industry isn't instantaneous, yet it does move with great momentum...
Pilots are leaving. Cabin crew are leaving. Yet new aircraft are arriving...
Any move today would be too little too late, and a storm is brewing which all within Ryanair will have to bear...
If ever there was a more effective demonstration of the continued relevence of unions then Ryanair is it...
By the way, most employment contracts contain a confidentiality clause to prevent the hired help from comparing notes.
Could somebody please confirm that the Ryaniar contracts do NOT contain a confidentiality clause?
If there is a deafening silence, it is obvious that they do contain said clause.
By the way, most employment contracts contain a confidentiality clause to prevent the hired help from comparing notes.
Could somebody please confirm that the Ryaniar contracts do NOT contain a confidentiality clause?
If there is a deafening silence, it is obvious that they do contain said clause.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: my cockpit
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those who wish to stay : keep fighting.
For those dreaming to leave (most of you are, I know, I've been through that myself), think about airlines such as Etihad, Emirates, Cathay, etc...Beautiful airplanes, beautiful rosters, beautiful destinations and beautiful pay check and T&Cs. High demand as numerous airplanes are coming in on all continents. Perfect for improving handicap and learning kite surfing.
Obviously, keep talking to the good old names such as BA and Virgin as they're also hiring fast on outstanding aircraft. Conditions have toughened but coming from FR's crap, it still feels like heaven.
One way to start getting away from Ryanair's cr&p psychologically is to send CVs. You'll quickly see how fast replies come in and the sun will rise again. Ryanair is far from being THE only outcome in your career, there is so much better in so many other places...
Now, for those considering joining Ryanair, FORGET IT ! Wait maybe another 2, 3 or even 6 months for THE right job. Keep yourself fully available mentally and physically for normal employers. Once you've stuck one finger in this ****e, it'll be harder for you to take it away.
For those dreaming to leave (most of you are, I know, I've been through that myself), think about airlines such as Etihad, Emirates, Cathay, etc...Beautiful airplanes, beautiful rosters, beautiful destinations and beautiful pay check and T&Cs. High demand as numerous airplanes are coming in on all continents. Perfect for improving handicap and learning kite surfing.
Obviously, keep talking to the good old names such as BA and Virgin as they're also hiring fast on outstanding aircraft. Conditions have toughened but coming from FR's crap, it still feels like heaven.
One way to start getting away from Ryanair's cr&p psychologically is to send CVs. You'll quickly see how fast replies come in and the sun will rise again. Ryanair is far from being THE only outcome in your career, there is so much better in so many other places...
Now, for those considering joining Ryanair, FORGET IT ! Wait maybe another 2, 3 or even 6 months for THE right job. Keep yourself fully available mentally and physically for normal employers. Once you've stuck one finger in this ****e, it'll be harder for you to take it away.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote from Frying:
“For those dreaming to leave (most of you are, I know, I've been through that myself), think about airlines such as Etihad, Emirates, Cathay, etc. Beautiful airplanes, beautiful rosters, beautiful destinations and beautiful pay check and T&Cs”
Talking to the guys in the know at the Orval, the bottom line is “All that glisters is not gold”.
Apparently, particularly concerning the Persian Gulf Airlines, don’t lose sight of the high cost of living (food, housing etc. – the only thing that’s cheap is fuel), salaries that aren’t that much different to post tax EU charter airline ones, rosters that only look beautiful on paper (and get torn up just as easily) and leave slots that are cancelled at the last moment; to mention but a few. It would appear that non-national F/Os have very little prospect of promotion and if you are a non-national on standby, you WILL be called out in preference to a national – who’s probably out sand-surfing with his family! Or, just out for lunch…
As for beautiful destinations? Maybe one in a hundred!
P.S. Don’t forget you’d be living in a Moslem culture (Ramadan, Eid etc.)
“For those dreaming to leave (most of you are, I know, I've been through that myself), think about airlines such as Etihad, Emirates, Cathay, etc. Beautiful airplanes, beautiful rosters, beautiful destinations and beautiful pay check and T&Cs”
Talking to the guys in the know at the Orval, the bottom line is “All that glisters is not gold”.
Apparently, particularly concerning the Persian Gulf Airlines, don’t lose sight of the high cost of living (food, housing etc. – the only thing that’s cheap is fuel), salaries that aren’t that much different to post tax EU charter airline ones, rosters that only look beautiful on paper (and get torn up just as easily) and leave slots that are cancelled at the last moment; to mention but a few. It would appear that non-national F/Os have very little prospect of promotion and if you are a non-national on standby, you WILL be called out in preference to a national – who’s probably out sand-surfing with his family! Or, just out for lunch…
As for beautiful destinations? Maybe one in a hundred!
P.S. Don’t forget you’d be living in a Moslem culture (Ramadan, Eid etc.)
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's interesting to see the old "sub judice" excuse wheeled out to avoid having to substantiate the comments regarding terms and conditions. Mr O'Leary seems quite content to make public comments (including the foul mouthed "couldn't give a sh..." on the identity issue) when it suits him, without being bothered by such legal details.
He is quite happy to splash details of, for example, Captain's salaries over the front page. If these conditions are in fact so reasonable, then why the big secret?
He is quite happy to splash details of, for example, Captain's salaries over the front page. If these conditions are in fact so reasonable, then why the big secret?
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish
Au contraire - Ryanair is the perfect example of the irrelevance of having a union. A successful, growing airline, modern aircraft, well paid jobs for hundreds of pilots, no strikes - people flying off everywhere at reasonable (sometimes) prices....
And all this done without the help of a union of any sort - amazing!
Au contraire - Ryanair is the perfect example of the irrelevance of having a union. A successful, growing airline, modern aircraft, well paid jobs for hundreds of pilots, no strikes - people flying off everywhere at reasonable (sometimes) prices....
And all this done without the help of a union of any sort - amazing!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Ryanair position on the conditions for Dublin pilots is obviously as manipulative as their claims about enormous earnings. In reality Ryanair pays poorly if you take an hourly rate - but makes up for that by requiring lots of work and paying as much in cash as possible. Hence, no pension, but money into your hand. Looks good, feels good, but turns out to be much worse than it appears.
It goes almost without saying that if they are claiming, as they do in every second press release, that captains are earning more than, say, 200,000 "something or others" that the correct interpretation is as follows: we have one captain who for a range of different reasons - trainer, special favourite, etc. - earned 200,000 + last year. This entitles us to claim that "captains earn up to 200,000" per annum. The fact that the other captains earn much less is not the point.
Ultimately, Leo has gone to ground (like Hansol, Ms Ozi, and the other Ryanair management types) because the reality does not support the propaganda. However, I too add my voice to Leo the missing: come back and stop hiding behind "sub judice" nonsense and justify your claims - tell us what wonderful terms were offered.
But he won't, because he can't. Lots of bluster, theats, self-confidence, etc. but with no supporting foundations - sounds like a perfect example of how Ryanair does business.
It goes almost without saying that if they are claiming, as they do in every second press release, that captains are earning more than, say, 200,000 "something or others" that the correct interpretation is as follows: we have one captain who for a range of different reasons - trainer, special favourite, etc. - earned 200,000 + last year. This entitles us to claim that "captains earn up to 200,000" per annum. The fact that the other captains earn much less is not the point.
Ultimately, Leo has gone to ground (like Hansol, Ms Ozi, and the other Ryanair management types) because the reality does not support the propaganda. However, I too add my voice to Leo the missing: come back and stop hiding behind "sub judice" nonsense and justify your claims - tell us what wonderful terms were offered.
But he won't, because he can't. Lots of bluster, theats, self-confidence, etc. but with no supporting foundations - sounds like a perfect example of how Ryanair does business.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Joyce,
You have to wonder how much better Ryanair would do with the following :
1) Happy staff (unionised or not as the case maybe)
2) Professional Management - as opposed to the guttersnipes in place at the moment
I guess at this rate we will not find out.
Cheers
BHR
You have to wonder how much better Ryanair would do with the following :
1) Happy staff (unionised or not as the case maybe)
2) Professional Management - as opposed to the guttersnipes in place at the moment
I guess at this rate we will not find out.
Cheers
BHR