Ryanair launches legal action against pilots' union (merged)

[maxalt]

I'm getting a bit pee'd off with the anti-union comments of Leo Hairyarse and others. They proceed from the simplistic premise that 'unions are bad, management are good'. Always.
What guff.

Here in Ireland we've just seen a couple of recent highly publicised examples of how fair minded and trustworthy management are when unhindered by union interference.

The first is todays news about Turkish building workers who have been getting paid between 2 and 3 euro per hour! When the exploitation was uncovered by an MP the company tried to pass it off as - eh- a 'mistake', and they then chose to scapegoat another employee! The national minimum wage is 7 euros per hour, and the minimum agreed wage for (unionised) building workers is 12.96 euro per hour. Some of these workers were underpaid by as much as 3,500 euro in the current year.
Quite an - er - 'mistake'.

But WAIT...there's more!

A Philipino hairdresser, working on an Irish Sea ferry boat was found to be getting...1 euro per hour! When the poor womans plight was exposed the company tried to send her home! She begged to be allowed to stay and work FOR FREE.

A picture is emerging of massive exploitation of immigrant labour all across the country. These workers have been afraid to speak out or fight to improve their wages and conditions because of the threat from employers to send them back home if they cause "trouble".

You pilots out there who are 'anti-union' should realise exactly what your lives would be like were it not for the others in the industry who defend your profession against the creeping advance of these exploiters. You may not believe in unions, you may not be in a union, but by God you BENEFIT from the efforts of those who have the backbone to stand up and fight.

[signeti]

well said maxalt , i totally agree
sadly there are more pilots with ostrich tendencies in ryanair then just about anywhere else ...
so many of them "claim " not to know about whats going on in dublin with the various court cases yet its only a finger tip away on the Repa website
they always moan and complain about ryanair but when asked if they have registered its always "oh i forgot ,i'll do it tomorrow"
"oh is that stuff actually on the repa website ?"
or the all time classic " i didnt even know they had a website "

yeah right, wise up

seeing intelligent men try hard or even pretend to be
IGNORANT is a very sad sight

as pilots , we wouldnt take off with out all the facts about the destination , so why walk blindly on with your life in Ryanair ???

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

The Politics of Failure.

Should these guys be denied the right to make a decision as to who represents them on employment matters?

Certainly not, minuteman, but neither should they be bullied into membership when clearly they don't want it. Rational, educated adults are quite capable of deciding for themselves with whom they associate without REPA's two IALPA funded henchmen pressing the flesh and quoting blatant falsehoods, such as:-

The FR pilots decided they wanted some help.

No they haven't. Merely a few Dublin based -200 pilots who threw their collective rattle from the cot when they decided the perfectly reasonable terms and conditions of their transfer to the -800 fleet were not to their liking.

They asked for it,

No we haven't. I'd be fascinated to hear your justification of this blatantly false exaggeration of fact. As measured by their turgid and profoundly user unfriendly website (funded yet again by IALPA's evidently deep-pocketed Aer Lingus pilot members), REPA has barely 200 registered members, or around one fifth of the Ryanair pilots corps, and even that poultry figure is declining by the hour. One fifth! You might think of this as representative membership minuteman, but I and others think of it as an exercise in futility and pinup to underachievement. REPA is beside itself, of course, to establish in the collective psyche of Ryanair pilots, and perhaps more importantly, the minds of the long suffering Aer Lingus pilots that they should continue, most generously I think, to fork out their own money in the hopeless attempt at getting this lame duck airborne, and interesting, isn't it, that time is running out in more ways than one. Mounting court costs as the latest legal pig-in-a-poke is salivated over, pressure from IALPA for results, and REPA’s 6 moths free honeymoon about to expire. Oh dear!

and they're getting it.

Are we indeed? This is the REPA comedy hour at its most side-splitting. The only real request made of REPA and their two IALPA funded henchmen, was to guarantee the confidentiality of member aliases. With hand on heart, everyone was promised that there was no way that evil Ryanair management would get their hands on membership details, and so a full and frank exchange of ideas was proposed. You know, something really juicy to angry up the blood and get the long suffering employees of the Ryanair sweatshop some well deserved representation. Well guess what, merely one High Court injunction later, and all those hand-on-heart assurances have changed somewhat to "we'll protect your details to the extent we're able", and "so as not to offend the courts". Meanwhile, REPA have rolled over quicker than a lapdog by the fireplace looking for a tummy tickle and handed the lot over to the Garda and officers of the Court to assist in an ongoing criminal investigation. Pity you didn't think to tell your website membership it was unwise to advocate the use of illegal and irresponsible practices to advance your cause. Perhaps a greater pity that you remained silent while it was going on. Could it be that a higher purpose was being served by such duplicitous tight lips? We shall see.

Yet I fail to understand why less than 20 pounds a year for legal, advisory, and coworker support seems to be such a big deal for some people! Truthfully that's 6 fewer pints a year

Chickens, I usually prefer to ignore your posts since I remain convinced English is not your mother tongue. This one made it through the universal translator, though, and you need to be put right. IALPA/BALPA, and shortly REPA membership runs at 1% of gross annual salary. I don't know about you, but I made 80,000 pounds as a Ryanair Captain last year which would mean 800 quid I'd have to fork out for union membership were I deranged enough to consider it. Not sure what pub you like drinking in, but I can get a lot more than 6 pints for 800 quid where I go.

Folks, the only issue for consideration here is honesty, regardless of personal politics. IALPA/BALPA's bastard lovechild REPA burst onto the scene almost 6 months ago amid a dazzling fiesta of opprobrium promising all things to all pilots. Lets review its achievements to date, shall we? Widespread rancour and ill-will, encouraged an atmosphere of defiance and non-cooperation, the use of hubris and intimidation to advance the strength of their morally corrupt non-arguments. All tiresomely familiar and absolutely typical. I wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole, but then I’m one of the vast majority four fifths of us in the collective Ryanair cockpit who see you for what you are, are aware of your true agenda and want nothing whatsoever to do with you.

Face it, boys, the word is out. Not only is REPA dishonest and ineffective, not only does it betray the trust of its members who were lead to believe that their privacy would remain sacrosanct, but in 17 days, they're going to have the cheek to ask you to pay for it, and pay through the nose!

[beardy]

REPA has barely 200 registered members, or around one fifth of the Ryanair pilots corps, and even that poultry figure is declining by the hour

Does this mean that the figure will come home to roost, scratch around or lay (golden) eggs? Or would someone with 'english as their mother tongue' consider it a paltry figure?

That said, what a curious rant from someone who appears to want to impose his view on others. If the guys want to join a union, let them. If the union is so bad, it will fade and die, if it is good it will flourish. If you don't want to join, don't, but don't get all fascist and deny people the opportunity to decide for themselves.

[SmilingKnifed]

Beardy, even worse than the chicken figures is the '6 moths (sic) free' that REPA are offering. Hardly an incentive!

LHC, D minus for spelling. Must do better.

[Faire d'income]

Censorship

Why was my post deleted?

Does the great ego's ''influence'' extend beyond all our local publications and into cyberworld now?

If so shame shame shame on PPrune.

[signeti]

hi leo , warwick , eddie, mikey or davey ...who ever ....
bit loose with your figures there old chappie
ryanair has between 500 and 700 hundred pilots , not sure of the numbers due to the amount leaving and the dwindling amount of contractors not renewing contracts ...
the only reason to mention 1000 pilots is because that is the amount of pilots we currently need , sadly for you , there is no longer a steady stream people willing to take the conditions doled out at ryanair...isnt that why we are cancelling flights at the moment ???
well done on the psych warfare , trying to convince people that you may be able to get at REPA's database to scare them into resigning membership was something i didnt foresee but anyone with HALF a brain will know that you HAV'NT a hope of getting this in the courts so i'm not scared ...
now YOU on the other hand should be, all those court cases that you and your buddies keep losing and losing and losing and whats that i see??? a few dates pencilled in at the labour court and comission and oh yes lets not forget the High court later this month ...could be an expensive month for you , my smelly little camel


" I love it when a plan comes together "

[atse]

One can only admire the boundless confidence of Ryanair's representatives and fellow travellers. While this orientation can be partially explained by their successes in resisting disabled passengers, abused/frustrated passengers who set up websites and so forth, there is a tendancy to forget just how badly, in general, Ryanair do when they get into court. Their confidence seems to grow inversely with their weaknesses when it comes to the facts.

Who would guess from the nonsense above that pilot supply problems continue to be a major problem and that even basic CPL/IR types in need of a job now ask awkward questions at interview about their prospective employment conditions at Ryanair? The Ryanair "pitch" is all so positive, and also such a load of codswallop.

What of the "indentured labour cabin crew" who refuse to play the game and just cut and run? What of the increasing inability to keep employees? The "word" is out about Ryanair and the "word" is based on reality. The accusations by Ryanair about REPA and their "numbers" are self-serving (and for people who have informers, surprisingly ill-informed - just by looking at the members list on the REPA site it is clearly a lot closer to 300 than 200). What Ryanair and its hencemen cannot recognise is that there are facts and realities and, in the end, they do come to roost.

Is it really a matter of propaganda or delusion to claim that there have been memos - some reproduced on PPRUNE - in which management threats were made explicit?

Just as the buck stops somewhere, so to does the truth. That truth is that Ryanair management, nothwithstanding honourable exceptions, is peopled by a particularly selfish, self-serving and offensive group who preach in jump seats, in corridors, in offices, etc. the kind of guff and propaganda presented above. Like puppets they keep repeating it, at their masters behest, to try to keep the tide from coming in. King Canute failed to stop the tide, as will King MOL. King MOL has no clothes; he now stands revealed for the vindictive word twisting little bully we know and dislike so much.

[chikenscanfly]

80000 a year?

Geez Michael, did you get that 80000 a year licking Continental Share-Holder ***?

Lets be realistic here, please, and cut the crap about 6 months free subscription about to run out, it begins from the period the INDIVIDUAL joins...

funny how you seem to have trouble grasping straight-forward concepts, or yet alone the ability to spell, but lets ignore that...


I was about to also point out the slight statistical error in your quote of a 1,000 pilots, but a dear colleague had pointed that out for us...

Yet he also pointed out the obvious fact that your battle is being lost, not ours... Pray, do tell, how do 32 cancelled flights, and the following day over 50, as well as the requirement to wet-lease from competitors, fare before the next share-holders meeting...

they must get weary of your smoke and mirrors too!


And speaking of which, here are some of the major acheivements made by REPA in just 6 months...

1. Support of, and from, ALL dublin based crews with regards to the -200 / -800 conversion deal, as well as taking legal action to avoid Ryanair executing redundancy upon said pilots
2. Admission to court numerous claims of intimidation, backed by numerous piles of internal correspondance
3. Protection from redundancy for Capt. John Goss by means of legal action
4. aiding requests from Dublin pilots for copies of their contracts, which as yet have not been disclosed by Ryanair
5. Protection of member identities despite numerous predicted attempts by Ryanair to expose and eliminate REPA members and in turn further intimidate the pilot body


5 major courses of action in just 6 months? Sounds like your lap-dog is looking more and more like a doberman...

You and your management thugs are bleeding Leo...


And as for your case on honesty...

how about updating your nifty little recruitment page on ryanair.com...

tell the truth for once...

[PPRuNe Radar]

Leo,

No they haven't. Merely a few Dublin based -200 pilots who threw their collective rattle from the cot when they decided the perfectly reasonable terms and conditions of their transfer to the -800 fleet were not to their liking.

Presumably fair and reasonable T&Cs would be something those of us not allied with Ryanair would be privy to see and pass our independent judgement upon, as industry stakeholders and interested parties. Or are they secret ??

[vfenext]

The T&C's in Ryanair would be great if only the year was 9 months long and you could retire at 85! I kid you not, however as we all know you have your first coronry in FR long before that.

[Aloue]

Come on Leo. You made the claim, so back it up. Tell us the conditions. There cannot be a pilot in Dublin who does not know them, but I suppose that those bad pilots are just so unreliable and they would probably tell mis-truths to our readers here.

Thank God for a font of truth and wisdom (that’s you Leo). So give us the “low down”. The non-Ryanair pilots, and especially the prospective Ryanair pilots, all want to know about the management generosity that was so wickedly spurned by trouble-makers in Dublin.

Don’t go all coy and “absent from Prune without leave” as tends to happen to you when the going gets tough. Make something up if necessary, but do talk to us.

[GGV]

Matters of fact? or Ryanair matters of fact?

Leo Hairy Camel. You have made a claim about "perfectly reasonable conditions" offered by Ryanair to pilots in Dublin. In turn your claim seems to have been greated with a degree of derision. Surely this is one factual matter where it would be simple just to give the facts and let us all judge who is misleading who? Are you willing to do this? Otherwise it will look to me, at least, as if there is indeed something suspicious about what Ryanair is up to in Dublin. But then is that not what this thread is all about, namely the fact that Ryanair will mislead and manipulate both its employees and the English language in however cynical a manner as it feels necessary to meet its particular agenda?

[Boy]

Can someone explain why this kind of information is not available to existing and future employees of Ryanair. Does this mean that the conditions of employment are not published, or that they are a secret, or what? What exactly is going on in this discussion. Can somebody give a short answer to those who are not informed, please.

[chikenscanfly]

The truth

Boy,

(Emotions and frusterations aside)

Ryanair works by effectively dividing its workforce as much as possible, exploiting personal interests and goals to achieve the best possible deal for the company.

Whilst in normal business practice this is indeed an intelligent and to some degrees acceptable manner of cost control, in Ryanair it is infused with intimidation and false promises which mislead the workforce, effectively giving Ryanair an unfair advantage.

In this way there are no fixed, universaly recognised set of terms and conditions. Every pilot's contract is different from the last, and whilst there is such a thing as a "pilots agreement", it has varying degrees of reference to the numerous different sets of employment contracts.


So, if you plan to join Ryanair, and feel you may be getting a good deal, you will find it quite impossible to check this as no one else will have quite the same contract as you.

And furthermore, as has happened in the past and is assured to continue happening in the future, terms and conditions once promised are often changed without the consent of both parties.

So chances are you wont be getting a good deal at all.

You can understand why, now, this kind of information is unavailable to both current and prospective employees, and what one of the major goals of REPA is.

[bentover]

The reasons why they won't publish the terms and conditions are simple.
There is none. They change them as they see fit.
E.G. Last year, I had a pension of 2/3 final salary,
My medical was paid by the company, and done on an allocated day,not when I'm off or flying,
I had loss of licence insurance of 150000.
Last April, MOL told us that the company wasn't making money this year due to the "bloodbath",and they took it all from us with a memo.
We have him in court in Dublin,and we're going to get it all back.

[minuteman]

Well Leo H-C,

It never ceases to amaze me how much one froths at the mouth defending FR management, yet on the other hand trying to convince me that FR really doesn't mind that any of their pilots have asked for representation.

These "perfectly reasonable terms and conditions" that you speak of, perhaps you are in a much better position than I to point out, line by line, what exactly you mean by this. Perhaps then you could ask someone else in FR management to send a copy of them to all of the pilots, just so they all know what contract they work on. I wait with baited breath, as I suppose all FR pilots do too.

Mr. Hairy-Camel, seeing as you continue to purport to be a captain in FR, might you tell me what your recollection of the pilots' meetings in DUB have been like. As far as I remember, the pilots have asked for the strategy to be undertaken, and they continue to reaffirm their support. Maybe you can help freshen my memory if you recall differently. And please, let us stick to the facts, the constant barrage of pseudo-MOL-speak does nothing to help the arguments put forward, unless of course you have another agenda to follow....?

Thirdly, I am intrigued how an ordinary line captain such as yourself, has such intimate knowledge of an "ongoing criminal investigation." Having such access to the facts of the case, you may wish to enlighten us all so that finally you can put us all out of our misery about "IALPA/BALPA's bastard lovechild."

The ball is in your court (!) Leo, publish and be damned. The sooner the cards are on the table, the sooner we can all go home. Prove me wrong. I repeat:

REPA/IALPA/BALPA have not made any claim on behalf of FR pilots.
There is no threat of industrial action.
REPA/IALPA/BALPA have sought to clarify the terms and conditions under which FR pilots are employed.
This is at the behest of FR pilots, who have asked to be represented by these officials.

Now tell me why an ordinary FR pilot like you, should be so vehement in opposition?

[Boy]

Thanks for the replies. I think I get it now.

I was attracted here by the article in today's Irish Times review "Who is Leo Hairy Camel?". It looks like he is now famous, even if he has yet to provide any answers to the questions!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

A curious pulse.

Hello Pprune Radar, and sure! A perfectly reasonable suggestion, except that due to REPA’s unrepresentative skullduggery, presentation here of the contract on offer may well be construed by some as sub judice and we all know and respect Mr. Fine’s honed instincts toward legal prophylaxis! It might well be argued that on an anonymous forum like this, who cares, but since you’re the moderator, you tell me! Better still, why not get one of the –200 pilots to tell everyone here how hardly done by they are? Don’t forget to remind them to fess up about the guaranteed Dublin base and no money up front for their conversion course, by the way. Ask them how much they make. Should be interesting.

[BBT]

Leo the Unwilling replaces Comical Leo

Leo H-C, what a pathetic effort to evade answering the questions you were asked. How can an offer to around 90 pilots of “perfectly reasonable terms and conditions of their transfer to the -800 fleet” be sub judice? What a useless excuse for refusing to back up your ridiculous claim.

If the offer is that good and Ryanair wishes their pilots to accept it, what possible reason could there be for hiding it from us? There is a reason, of course. It is because you know that it is NOT a good offer and the terms and conditions are NOT perfectly reasonable. In fact, the offer is actually manifestly UNreasonable. That is why you and your management cronies don’t want to reveal it.

Disprove what I say by telling all your eager readers. I see you have made it to the Irish Times. Congratulations! So maybe you will have even more readers than normal, all eager to see “the colour of your money”.

Finally, in your interesting attempt to divert the subject you make much of “the guaranteed Dublin base and no money up front for their conversion course”. This is for employees who are amongst the most long-serving in the airline! What is generous about that … oh, I forgot, it is generous for Ryanair in the light of their propensity to do “unexpected things” to their employees. (But you forgot to mention the mandatory payment of €15-18,000 if any union is recognised by Ryanair in the next five years, something which is certainly a lot more recognisable as Ryanair behaviour).

What a sad and ineffective toady you are.