Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Anyone got a Towbar??

Wikiposts
Search
Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Anyone got a Towbar??

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 15th Feb 2005, 16:53
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pity some of the anoraks on here ar unable to think a bit more laterally with their speculation about the causes of the flights problem. Here's a starter for 10... think of fuel temperature problems on such a long flight!

Now I'll hand back to the spotters and enthusiasts to air their amusing ideas.
exhausted is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2005, 17:07
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Airborne
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Fuel Temp has absolutely nothing to do with the problem of tanks running dry. Fuel temp would not have been a problem at this late stage of the flight. OAT being fairly normal.
James7 is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2005, 19:34
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: western europe
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Here's a starter for 10... think of fuel temperature problems on such a long flight!
"E" .... can you expand on that thought?

hobie is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2005, 20:15
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: London
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Tanks were not dry, but nbr 1 main tank collector cell was, then nbr 4 main collector cell ran v low.
bornslippy is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2005, 01:38
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middle East
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pah, who needs a towbar.....

www.airliners.net/open.file/032599/L/

reverserunlocked is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2005, 04:52
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: usa
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
anyone got a Towbar

During a engineering dispute at Briitish Airways in Manchester during the 70's a BAC 1-11 500 was stuck at the gate without a pushback. At the time about 5 crews were deadheading to Berlin, our best layover. So the crews got off and manually pushed the 1-11 back off the stand so it could depart. Where there is a will there is a way!
calsar is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2005, 08:21
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: .
Posts: 2,997
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cool

Fuel Temp has absolutely nothing to do with the problem of tanks running dry
It does if the fuel has any water in it (which it does) and the outer tank valves fail to open as they are frozen solid with water!!! There was fuel in the wing it was just in the wrong place so it couldn't feed the engines, what caused this will hopefully come out in due course. I'm told that the fuel temp at the time was -70, well below the -47 FP of jet A1!
spannersatcx is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2005, 09:05
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Airborne
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I think you are confused with OAT and Fuel Temp.
James7 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2005, 09:05
  #29 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
OOI, the temperature last week over southern europe at FL400 was -71C which is below the 'norm'.

The Boeing 737 QRH calls for descent or speed increase to raise the fuel temperature, and either of these actions would probably have caused a shortfall in available fuel to complete the flight on a 737, possibly requiring a 'tech stop' en-route.
BOAC is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2005, 11:04
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: .
Posts: 2,997
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cool

I think you are confused with OAT and Fuel Temp
nope I was told when the boxes were pulled that the fuel temp had gone down to -70, could be wrong though.
spannersatcx is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2005, 02:05
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, somebody has to say it!

Bring back the professional Flight Engineer

Just another example of the pilots not watching what is going on, rather wait for the ECAMS message (when it's to late to do anything proactive!).

As in most of these incidents, something can much more easily done when the problem is noticed when it first shows - not when the engines start to 'splutter'.

When will the 'establishment' ever realize the value of the FE, its always comes down to salary dollars. So, they save the pennies (the salary), and lose the dollars (the airplane) - or nearly do!

Just as a result of this one incident, the operator could have paid the salaries of a troop of FEs for a very long time - and how many incidents are in the past and are still to come?

So silly, really

Cheers
Flight Detent is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2005, 18:07
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Airborne
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Impossible for the fuel to be minus 70 as this would have been colder than the aircraft. Total Air Temperature would have been in the range -40 to - 46. At minus 47 or approaching -47 (fuel freeze point) the fuel shoud be transferred from the outer to inner tanks. For the fuel to be minus 70 the OAT would be around -90 degrees or lower. The operating limit of the A340-600 is minus 74.
James7 is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2005, 07:12
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Believe the problem was not fuel temp related but to do with a FCMC software problem not allowing fuel to transfer. (and we all no how reliable the FCMC's are !!)
Captain Rat is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2005, 12:01
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Spain
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FCMC Faults

The aircraft (A340-600) is notorious for these faults and is important to understand the reasons why computers in general fail / seize. (No different from a home PC really)

The FCMC is a computer and when it sends a command to a system and the system does not comply for one reason or another then the computer will crash say FCMC 2. The FCMC is reset and after a few minutes will cycle back to the original command and will crash again if not complied with.

If FCMC 2 is off line then FCMC1 will take over and send the same command, if this is not complied then FCMC1 will fail.

Take the example of fuel transfer. When an inner tank reaches 4t the FCMC will signal a fwd txfr. If the txfr fails the computer will crash no matter how many resets, unless the txfr starts the computer FCMC2 say will always crash. If left off line then FCMC 1 will take over, this will signal a fwd txfr and if this fails to happen the computer will crash and then ECAM will signal a dbl FCMC failure with the associated drills.

It is of course not easy to figure out what the FCMC are doing and why they crash but with a little knowledge it can be worked out and preempted.

I do not know what happened in this incident or what actions were or were not taken.

With an inner tank at 4t the fuel should start a trim tank fwd txfr and at 2t an outer to inner txfr. If an FCMC fails at this time then a manual txfr will preempt any further failure and the FCMC will reset. This has happened to me a few times.

If the outers completely fail to txfr then there is only 8t of usable fuel left so an immediate diversion would have to be considered.

With a double FCMC failure all fuel warnings are lost; at least this is obvious as ECAM displays FCMC 1+2 Fault. All txfr’s must be done manually.
Tron049 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.